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LHZAWD
09-21-2015, 10:19 PM
So if you show up for sunday only races ( no sat. results).
are you placed on the grid at the back of the entire field or at the back of the class you are running -right before the fastest car in the next lower class >
there was some question about that at the last event.
what would be the answer?

Thanks

Paul Loeffelholz

Doug P
09-21-2015, 10:46 PM
Rulebook says with no qualifying or race times your placed behind the last car in your class.

LHZAWD
09-22-2015, 01:16 AM
Thanks Doug

23Racer
09-22-2015, 10:45 PM
How is the Fun Race going to be gridded? There are 44 cars entered right now and a wide variety of lap times. Just wondering?

Eric

DEK
09-23-2015, 02:55 PM
Re grid positions for "Grand Finale" From a good source.
By lap times from the Sunday morning sessions. Cars that don't run Sunday morning
will start behind the cars that do have a Sunday morning lap time.
.

LHZAWD
09-27-2015, 11:41 PM
Still appears still to be an grey area of the rules and gridding .
i was once again placed at the back of the field 27th -i explained the rule politely -i was told i was wrong and that i was to go to the back. They even got confirmation from the tower for me to be gridded last because of sunday only race .
So for myself today that was fine as i'm still learning the car and the track and it was a good workout passing 20 cars to get to 7th.

When i was upstairs getting my observation card signed by the commitee and Steward - we were talking for a bit and they said i should have been put at the back of my class as written in the rules .

oh well next year ..... on a sunday
Had a great time today

DavidSim
09-28-2015, 12:00 AM
I sure hope this matter is clarified, I have also been caught up in this type of situation on two occasions, on the first occasion I was put at the back of my class (GT3), on the second occasion (today) I was placed at the back of the grid.

I sure hope this matter is clarified for next year, the rule seems clear at first glance, but perhaps there is more to it (I am not sure).

Who would be responsible for clarifying this matter and ensuring the clarification is distributed to those who need to know ???

Regards to all.

Doug P
09-28-2015, 12:21 AM
Unfortunately nothing to clarify. The rule is clear. It needs to be applied correctly. I reclassified myself for the last race and mentioned out the rulebook as I had heard that the morning race a driver was started at the back of the grid. I was told to go the the grid and start where I was told. Turned out that I would start at the rear of the grid anyway as another GT3 car did not finish well in the previous race so was at the back. P24 to P3.

2.3.1 GRIDDING

a) Gridding shall be by qualifying times, or by the results of the previous heat Race. All qualifying laps shall be timed. Cars not timed in qualifying shall be placed behind the slowest qualified car in the class, in the order approved by the Clerk of the Course. The fastest Car shall be on the pole position with subsequent slower Cars behind. It shall be the Car/Driver combination, which qualifies for a starting position. In case of a tie in qualifying times, the second fastest lap, then the third fastest, etc., will be used to break the tie.

Other methods of determining grid position may be approved by CASC-OR and shall be included in the Series or Supplementary Regulations.

23Racer
09-28-2015, 12:25 AM
That happened to me as well. I was gridded at the very back of the field and had to battle through all of the GT5 cars. I thought i was goingvto be gridded at the back ofcthe GT4 cars. I do want to thank Mr. Daley for speaking with me before the start as he wanted to make certain that I knew what he was going to do as there could have been issues.

Eric

LHZAWD
09-28-2015, 12:38 AM
Question also -if a car in your class breaks out on the saturday and is moved further back or to the back of the grid on the first sunday race. Are you placed behind that car ? It would be the last car in your class.

Paul Loeffelholz

DavidSim
09-28-2015, 09:23 AM
To me it would seem better to bundle each class on the grid, that if you are the last GT3 for whatever reason then you are at least the last one in front of the GT4 drivers.

I came up through the back of the pack too yesterday and it was quite interesting picking my way through all the GT5 and GT4 drivers, I believe it created unnecessary concern/stress for all in some respects.

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is my opinion.

Take care everyone.

Track Mom
09-28-2015, 05:06 PM
Let me clarify I was the Grid Chief for the Weekend (as usual) I know that rule and was ready to apply it. I double checked with control as always, before I do anything and was told that all cars new to the race (those who did not race the day before or who were not on the grid sheet I was given were to be placed at the back of the pack) Sorry about that guys just behaving and doing what I was told for once:rolleyes:

DavidSim
09-28-2015, 05:16 PM
Perhaps someone needs to speak to the person in "Control" to advise how things should pan out as such.

For example, I raced on Saturday in GT Sprints GT3, I came second, I chose not to start the first race on Sunday (was saving my tires for the final) and then gridded for the final (I was placed at the end of the Grid).

I had to work my way through the pack as such, was a challenge for sure for me and most likely many of the GT5 and GT4 drivers I whizzed by. I think it would be much safer to grid each class in line and where necessary ensure that drivers are placed at the end of their class and not at the end of the grid.

I would also humbly suggest that even if a car (e.g. GT2) has a slower qualifying time than a GT4 (unlikely, just an example) then I would hope the GT2 car gets put at the back of the GT2 section (not behind some of the GT3 and GT4 cars), I believe this would be much safer for all involved (I saw a person with a radar gun at the track this year, he clocked some of the GT1 cars at 165-170 MPH at the end of the back straight at CTMP, not sure how fast some of the GT5 guys were going).

Just my opinion/suggestion as such; perhaps I am missing something so please let me know if so.

23Racer
09-28-2015, 05:16 PM
HAH, under the bus with you. As one of the drivers affected, it was a bit of a bother, but in reality it just made the first 4 or 5 laps a little more fun. The first lap was really , really fun as we got 3 wide going into 2, 3 and 5. I passed 3 cars on the inside of 5. Awesomer and even funner!!!!!

Just made the whole day a bit more special. And in reality, I doubt any of us were going for crucial season long points.

Eric

James Appell
09-28-2015, 05:17 PM
So the Clerk isn't up to date with the rules.

paule
09-28-2015, 11:57 PM
Perhaps someone needs to speak to the person in "Control" to advise how things should pan out as such.

For example, I raced on Saturday in GT Sprints GT3, I came second, I chose not to start the first race on Sunday (was saving my tires for the final) and then gridded for the final (I was placed at the end of the Grid).

I had to work my way through the pack as such, was a challenge for sure for me and most likely many of the GT5 and GT4 drivers I whizzed by. I think it would be much safer to grid each class in line and where necessary ensure that drivers are placed at the end of their class and not at the end of the grid.

I would also humbly suggest that even if a car (e.g. GT2) has a slower qualifying time than a GT4 (unlikely, just an example) then I would hope the GT2 car gets put at the back of the GT2 section (not behind some of the GT3 and GT4 cars), I believe this would be much safer for all involved (I saw a person with a radar gun at the track this year, he clocked some of the GT1 cars at 165-170 MPH at the end of the back straight at CTMP, not sure how fast some of the GT5 guys were going).

Just my opinion/suggestion as such; perhaps I am missing something so please let me know if so.

I had the rare opportunity to watch the Sprint races Saturday and the car that was first in GT5 had 13 cars behind him.To place him back half a dozen or so spots to his group is not my idea of racing.Faster guys are ahead of slower guys
Paul Einarson
BARC Race Director

Doug P
09-29-2015, 12:05 AM
Let me clarify I was the Grid Chief for the Weekend (as usual) I know that rule and was ready to apply it. I double checked with control as always, before I do anything and was told that all cars new to the race (those who did not race the day before or who were not on the grid sheet I was given were to be placed at the back of the pack) Sorry about that guys just behaving and doing what I was told for once:rolleyes:

Yes, to clarify it was the Clerk of the Course I spoke to when I reclassified as I had heard the morning race was not positioned as per the rulebook. you guys were great.

As it turned out other GT3 cars had difficulties so were at the back anyway. Great challange to come through the traffic except for the 3 near wrecks passing cars under blue waving flags. Three different drivers in straight sections decided that the blue flag meant come across the whole track to jump in front of the faster car. Freaking scary, not sure why anyone would choose to do that nevermind 3 times.

Doug P
09-29-2015, 12:07 AM
So the Clerk isn't up to date with the rules.

Well he knew when I spoke to him and I point it out. Do as you told.

DavidSim
09-29-2015, 12:24 AM
How about this suggestion:

Where ever you qualify on Saturday (during official qualifying) is where you start for all the races that weekend. This would encourage people to come out on Saturday and run the qualifier at their intended race speeds.

If you do not participate in the qualifier then you start at the back of your class (not the back of the grid).

Groups would be completely segregated, with no mix of classes down the line, in order by class. Anyone who needs to go to the back goes to the back of their class, not the back of the grid.

Am I being silly ???

ScotcH
09-29-2015, 12:46 AM
I don't understand the problem here ... you don't qualify (be it actual Quali, or a previous quali race), you start at the back. It's pretty simple. Part of racing is working your way back to the front of the grid if you don't earn it in quali.

What if it was a rainy day, and all the GT5 FWD cars out-qualify all the super duper V8s (happens all the time). Should they have to start BEHIND them in the race, even though they earned their spot?

Doug P
09-29-2015, 01:03 AM
I don't understand the problem here ... you don't qualify (be it actual Quali, or a previous quali race), you start at the back. It's pretty simple. Part of racing is working your way back to the front of the grid if you don't earn it in quali

What if it was a rainy day, and all the GT5 FWD cars out-qualify all the super duper V8s (happens all the time). Should they have to start BEHIND them in the race, even though they earned their spot?

Only one problem.

"Cars not timed in qualifying shall be placed behind the slowest qualified car in the class, in the order approved by the Clerk of the Course."

From race to race this is is not consistently applied. During the season it becomes an unfair advantage for some.

So apply it consistently or change the rule.

HYUNDAI 113
09-29-2015, 09:20 AM
From experience, if I have only raced one day, I was always placed at the back of the grid, not my class. For me, it is a lot more fun to make my way through everyone to catch up to my class. Normally by half way through I have run down the people in my class. As long as I can make it through everyone safely, I don't care where you put me. Its racing.

ScotcH
09-29-2015, 01:52 PM
Only one problem.

"Cars not timed in qualifying shall be placed behind the slowest qualified car in the class, in the order approved by the Clerk of the Course."

From race to race this is is not consistently applied. During the season it becomes an unfair advantage for some.

So apply it consistently or change the rule.

Agreed. Change the rule, since clearly it's not being applied anyway :)

Doug P
09-29-2015, 03:25 PM
Agreed. Change the rule, since clearly it's not being applied anyway :)

I think the rule was originally put in place for safety reasons and to allow a Sunday racer a chance at competing for points.

We have cars capable of lap times as low as 1:18 from time to time show up. Serious closing speeds at the start of a race with a bunch of guys racing for position in all classes and running cars that are doing 1:50s. A lot different than lapping cars that are for the most part spread out a bit at that time.

Nothing wrong with the rule, most weekends the rule is applied correctly. It has been in place for a few years so no reason at this time really for officials to not know it and apply it correctly. Certainly no reason if someone points it out to them a few times during the day.

I did not mind the challenge coming from the back, did not like cars crossing the track in front of me when being lapped.

timewarp9
09-29-2015, 08:43 PM
I was using a radar gun on Saturday afternoon at the bridge on the back-straight for the GT1/2 race. Easy to pick up individual cars but difficult in a pack as it jumped around. Top speed i picked up was 159 mph, Greg Clifton.

GT1 cars do close fast on slower cars, but we have better brakes, and can pretty much position ourselves on any line to pass.

Doug as you are probably aware, you have to assume that the driver ahead is going to take the optimum line, you have to read what the car is doing ahead of you and make adjustments accordingly. Sometimes they switch lines trying to give you the optimum line, then it is a bit hairy as you have already committed to an off-line pass. So, you have to be cautious and allow some leeway with your car ie: you cannot run at the limit all of time. It is a dangerous situation sometimes. That is why I do not run sprints often.

If I start at the back in GT1, I pretty much lap the GT3 to GT5 field twice, so that is a lot of decision making. Spectators like it though, but they don't pay for repairs.

I like the idea of split grids which I have said over the years, and when time allows on the schedule, the organizers use it. Unfortunately I could not make use of it this past weekend as the engine is being re-freshed in the Corvette.

Ideally, if three weekends in a year were dedicated to split grids and set at the beginning of the season then I could plan to make it out for a GT1 inter-series. But that is not the current situation. So that makes it hard to organize time and budget.

Regards,

Jon

timewarp9
09-29-2015, 08:44 PM
BTW, when I ran in Trans-am, you were gridded at the back of your class. Not the field.

Jon

Doug P
09-29-2015, 09:11 PM
I was using a radar gun on Saturday afternoon at the bridge on the back-straight for the GT1/2 race. Easy to pick up individual cars but difficult in a pack as it jumped around. Top speed i picked up was 159 mph, Greg Clifton.

GT1 cars do close fast on slower cars, but we have better brakes, and can pretty much position ourselves on any line to pass.

Doug as you are probably aware, you have to assume that the driver ahead is going to take the optimum line, you have to read what the car is doing ahead of you and make adjustments accordingly. Sometimes they switch lines trying to give you the optimum line, then it is a bit hairy as you have already committed to an off-line pass. So, you have to be cautious and allow some leeway with your car ie: you cannot run at the limit all of time. It is a dangerous situation sometimes. That is why I do not run sprints often.

If I start at the back in GT1, I pretty much lap the GT3 to GT5 field twice, so that is a lot of decision making. Spectators like it though, but they don't pay for repairs.

I like the idea of split grids which I have said over the years, and when time allows on the schedule, the organizers use it. Unfortunately I could not make use of it this past weekend as the engine is being re-freshed in the Corvette.

Ideally, if three weekends in a year were dedicated to split grids and set at the beginning of the season then I could plan to make it out for a GT1 inter-series. But that is not the current situation. So that makes it hard to organize time and budget.

Regards,

Jon

Thanks Jon. I am not talking about a driver moving over to take an optimum line. As an example one near misses was near the bridge on the back straight. Slower car getting blue flag was full track left with no one to race with. As I came up to pass full track right the driver came fully across the track right in front of me. This is not a move to take an optimum line. Many of my passes were delayed so there was no unnecessary risk passing in a corner or while the other cars were racing for position.

I suppose I might as well toss in the concern of overly aggressive high risk maneuvers during the start of the race. I was forced to brake hard at the start line when a driver felt it appropriate to come from the left side of the track to the right concrete wall. If I had simply held my position at the wall we would have wrecked.

I understand a GT2 car was also forced off track at high speed in corner 6 too. Not sure what people are thinking really, we all want to go home safe and with all our shit.

DavidSim
09-29-2015, 09:35 PM
>>when I ran in Trans-am, you were gridded at the back of your class. Not the field<<

Sounds good to me, I believe this is the best approach.