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View Full Version : OTA Approved Rule Changes for 2016


John P
11-23-2015, 04:37 PM
1. Simplify Race Weight process,
a. Increase the Race Weight submission requirement from "Greater then 4 bPIPs " to "Greater than 5 bPIPs'.
b. Eliminate Curb Weight Submission form, but still require a photo submission of the weight scale reading.
c. Require Corner weight scales, or a commercial vehicle weight scale with a print out of car Race Weight. Submit photo.
d. Engine or transmission swaps will require a car Race Weight.

2. Aero Mod changes,
a. Rule 5.1.A3. Additional 1 PIP for each of splitter, or wing greater than 4" past the forward most, rearward most, sides (excluding side mirrors), or highest point of OE vehicle body.
b. Removal of Rear bumper skin provides an aerodynamic advantage, so will be 1 PIP (maybe part of diffuser rule 5.1.A3.4).
c. Authorized modification to the rear bumper skin, allow for exhaust piping.

3. Class Changes,
Use 2015 Classes (14) with Individual PAX (IPAX) for Overall and Class positions. Competitors with non-optimized cars will be more competitive in class. We need to change Timing System software.

JohnP

vwraceguy
11-23-2015, 10:10 PM
So would this be the profile aero envelope? (in red)

http://flinktech.com/gallery/albums/2014-camaross/aero-envelope.jpg

wparsons
11-24-2015, 11:43 AM
The current rules don't allow anything beyond 4". The new rule allows bigger aero, at a cost of 1 pip per part. If you currently have a wing that sticks out 3.9" and a splitter at 3.9" and make them both stick out 6" you'd be hit with 2 more pips in addition to whatever pips you took for the wing and splitter originally.

KLZEMX6
11-24-2015, 12:11 PM
1. Simplify Race Weight process,
a. Increase the Race Weight submission requirement from "Greater then 4 bPIPs " to "Greater than 5 bPIPs'.
b. Eliminate Curb Weight Submission form, but still require a photo submission of the weight scale reading.
c. Require Corner weight scales, or a commercial vehicle weight scale with a print out of car Race Weight. Submit photo.
d. Engine or transmission swaps will require a car Race Weight.

2. Aero Mod changes,
a. Rule 5.1.A3. Additional 1 PIP for each of splitter, or wing greater than 4" past the forward most, rearward most, sides (excluding side mirrors), or highest point of OE vehicle body.
b. Removal of Rear bumper skin provides an aerodynamic advantage, so will be 1 PIP (maybe part of diffuser rule 5.1.A3.4).
c. Authorized modification to the rear bumper skin, allow for exhaust piping.

3. Class Changes,
Use 2015 Classes (14) with Individual PAX (IPAX) for Overall and Class positions. Competitors with non-optimized cars will be more competitive in class. We need to change Timing System software.

JohnP

so the fastest car in gt1 won't necessarily win gt1?

wparsons
11-24-2015, 12:31 PM
so the fastest car in gt1 won't necessarily win gt1?

Correct. John went over LOTS of data, and except a couple outliers the standings were the same with both scoring methods. IIRC, no cases came up where the class winner changed, but someone down in 4th or 5th moved up a place. It's possible that a car lower down in the class could squeak out a win on iPAX score despite being slower on raw times but unlikely.

Snizzoop
11-24-2015, 03:32 PM
John went over LOTS of data, and except a couple outliers the standings were the same with both scoring methods. IIRC, no cases came up where the class winner changed, but someone down in 4th or 5th moved up a place.

So, out of curiosity, if nothing is REALLY going to change, why is calculator racing being introduced at the class level? Do outsiders (other time attack participants) really need something else to "confuse" them?

thgear
11-24-2015, 03:37 PM
calculator racing

:)

wparsons
11-24-2015, 04:33 PM
So, out of curiosity, if nothing is REALLY going to change, why is calculator racing being introduced at the class level? Do outsiders (other time attack participants) really need something else to "confuse" them?

The points brought up were that you don't *need* to optimize to the top of a class anymore, and newcomers will likely find it less intimidating to start off with since they don't have to optimize to a class at all. There has been feedback that someone that runs their car through the CCDB and comes out 0.5 PIPs into the next class is really discouraged since they're entering at a deficit from the start.

In reality, the fastest people are typically a combination of well chosen mods and very good driving. The same mods don't give the same bang for your buck (or PIPs) on every platform, so it's a a balance of choosing what works best for your car without bumping your PI too high.

k.beaty
11-24-2015, 05:45 PM
I am sad to see that OTA has decided to use iPAX. The guys who work hard at home and make sure they are optimized are no longer rewarded and I really don't think that optimizing for a 5 point spread is very difficult.

To me, racing is just as much about optimizing your car and selecting appropriate modifications as it is about performing well on the race track. The new iPax system takes away from that in my opinion. Perhaps I am the only one who feels this way, but winning your class without being the fastest car on raw time in that class seems childish. It feels like we're trying to give people who are too lazy/careless/stupid whatever the case may be, a chance at a class win. If someone isn't prepared to work harder than the the people who are beating them, then they shouldn't be expecting to win.

If iPax is implemented, OTA might as well do away with classes and score only on overall, as it will be a glorified lapping day with some prizes to the fastest competitors on a calculator.



All in all, I think that iPax is a poor decision, and takes away from the preparation aspect of racing. Hopefully OTA will reconsider... :(

John P
11-24-2015, 07:05 PM
The guys who work hard at home and make sure they are optimized are no longer rewarded and I really don't think that optimizing for a 5 point spread is very difficult.

To me, racing is just as much about optimizing your car and selecting appropriate modifications as it is about performing well on the race track.:(

With the 2015 PAX scoring, competitors with Performance Index at top of their class were exactly equal, so they were running against each other for overall. The only way they could improve their results was to choose mods that would give them a better time and still stay at top of their class. They had to optimize for a particular class (e.g. Sway bars better than equal PI weight reduction?, Maybe LSD is better than equivalent PI power improvement? Maybe bushings and alignment are better than wider wheels outside of fenders and diff gear changes? etc.).

With IPAX everyone is scored equally, but the decision to answer the above optimization questions are still valid, in fact more important, because everyone is scored against the same measuring stick.

I like the simplicity of Raw times in class, but the PAX vs IPAX analysis showed only a few mid class competitors would gain a position or two with IPAX.

Keep optimizing Kyle. OTA isn't just a "glorified lapping day" with a calculator to distribute wins.

JohnP

Grant Galloway
11-24-2015, 09:22 PM
I hope things stay as they are, I just spent $5000 on a new suspension on a $14,000 car...LOL

Either way I plan to be out having fun and trying to improve!

Grant

John P
11-25-2015, 12:36 AM
Grant, In your July 23'15 Car Class Approval, you had coilovers, sway bar and alignment. Your new $5K suspension should be covered by items already approved, so without taking any additional PIs, you improved your handling (that's optimization).

In 2015 your PI was 74.3 (GT2) so you were competing using PAX at a "Top of Class" PI of 74.9. In 2016 with IPAX your effective PI will be 74.3. This should give you a slightly improved score.

JohnP

Grant Galloway
11-25-2015, 12:55 AM
Yep, I had some cheaper coilovers... Car is GT2 with the Trofeo's which I never ran and it's GT3 with the RE71R's

I was just saying, I figure it will be more competitive no matter what class I run...

It's going to be fun!!

Dave Barker
11-25-2015, 09:14 AM
I too have some concerns about using iPAX for class wins and even though John's analysis shows minimal difference, I think there will be more changes in class positions as time goes on. Ideally I would like iPAX for overall and RAW times for class wins.

OTOH, as a CCC member, I can't tell you how many times I have had requests from a newbie (or sometimes someone from another series) to change our base classification system and/or PIP schedule as their car, the way they built it, is less than 1 PIP into the class above where they want to be. IPAX means they can run whatever they want and they can stop using the "my car is classed all wrong" reason to not run.

The other advantage to iPAX is that you don't end up adding mods to your car just to get to the top of your class even though they may not be very productive and conversely, you don't need to be afraid that adding that extra PIP or two that may really work well is going to ruin your overall competitiveness

My guess is that class winners will continue to be the best drivers with optimised cars for their particular class but the less optimised cars in the class will now be closer to the class winner on PAX scores

I think the change is well worth trying.

JoeT
11-25-2015, 10:00 AM
Dave,

IPAX / PAX and such maybe easy and old hat to you veterans, but if you take a look at an unbiased poll posted on the SPDA Facebook page.

We requested input from people that ran motorsports, BUT didn't run time attack: https://www.facebook.com/groups/291703044249405/

Guess what the 2 most popular answers were?
Cost and Complexity

We're handling cost at this point.... We're still waiting to see what is done about Complexity.

Thanks


****************************************************************
The questions posed were:
Discussion about Ontario Time Attack. For those that are NOT running at Ontario Time Attack, we at SPDA would like to hear your opinion. Here are a few questions for you:

What discipline are you currently running? (AutoX / Lapping / Ice Racing / etc/?)

Are you interested in running in Time Attack?

Have you ever been to a Time Attack Event?

Would you be interested in finding out more?
If SPDA held a "Beginner Friendly" Time Attack would you be interested in running?

If you've considered running within the Ontario Time Attack and not done so, why did you not run?

Thanks for reading. Please, let's limit the responses to people that have either run Ontario Time Attack for less than 1 season, or Non Time Attack participants.

Thank You

thgear
11-25-2015, 11:38 AM
complexity is relative

for someone that removes their wheels using a torque wrench nothing will ever be simple enough.

the idea of ipax has been floating around for many years, it solves the problem of having people whine about being a screw or bolt away from being optimized for their class.

Now people can mod whatever and however they want and only look at themselves when in search for time.

in that facebook thread you quoted, a fella said "I find it hard to find out exactly what mods put u in what class"

well have ya read the dang rulebook?

I really don't know how much simpler this can be made for people. Your car starts out in a class, then you throw stuff on it and then you go up. There, I just condensed the entire classification system into a single sentence.

If you want to find out how much a mod affects you, look it up in the table, it is in the rule book. We even made an online tool for you to check off mods and have the math all done for you!

There's a difference between not wanting to amass new knowledge and something being complex. All too often I'm confronted with people who put considerable effort into not wanting to understand the thing instead of the opposite. It's mind boggling.


here's a typical conversation

"thing is too hard, why is it so complex?"

"what is complex about thing? What are you having difficulties with?"

"the whole thing, it is complex, I don't understand it, it is bad"

"tell me what you need help with"

"the thing, it is not doing what I want it to do, it is not fair, and it is also stupid, thank god there are timbits"

"well, let me help you, the thing is this, and that thing is that, and this is how you apply the thing with the other thing"

"Okay, but it is complex, and stupid, and this timbit is tasty, I'm just going to go racing now, because that is what is super important, not the thing, you need to make the thing simpler, and fairer, and less complexistizing, and why is there no coffee?"


:rolleyes:

i don't know, assign mentors or something, i used to answer emails where people asked questions about classifying, are we not doing that anymore, or is it that people can no longer be bothered to even ask questions about the thing and instead proclaim difficulty?

this is getting ridiculous

all the channels are there for people to exploit

OTA is a series built around the driver, the system was specifically developed to remove the edge that modding does, it was always "car building" second, and catered to cars with light to medium level of prep, that's the target demographic, it has always been like this, I'm not really understanding the confusion from people.

ipax was always on the table, it was just waiting for enough data to be proofed

math yo!

JoeT
11-25-2015, 12:18 PM
Serge,

Excellent input as always. I'm sure Kodak also didn't think it was necessary to listen to their changing market place.

Thanks

thgear
11-25-2015, 12:29 PM
Serge,

Excellent input as always. I'm sure Kodak also didn't think it was necessary to listen to their changing market place.

Thanks

Changes have been made every year to help the competitor

and every year it seems like it's not enough, and you get people saying this or that is too difficult

where you do you draw the line between people having real difficulties and simply not carrying enough to read a certain volume of information and have it digest in their heads?

when doors have PUSH labels right next to the handles and people still pull, there's really nothing else that could be done. Except, I suppose, install automated doors, which people occasionally run into anyway. There's never an end to the spoon-feeding potential.

wparsons
11-25-2015, 12:34 PM
To me, racing is just as much about optimizing your car and selecting appropriate modifications as it is about performing well on the race track. The new iPax system takes away from that in my opinion.

Not going to disagree with the rest of what you've said, but I do disagree on this part.

If anything, selecting which modifications is more important now because every single one affects your PAX score, not just the sum of them. Last year someone might have been able to run a sway bar because they had a spare pip or two and found it only took off 0 to 0.1 seconds per lap. Sure it was faster, but it wasn't worth the full PIP it cost you (which would be 0.2 seconds on a 75 second lap).

There is still very much a skill to picking which modifications are actually worth the PIPs based on your car and your driving style/skill.

JoeT
11-25-2015, 12:34 PM
You are absolutely correct as always. Bit answer this, in any industry change is constant. How do determine if the changes you make are correct or incorrect?

That question is rhetorical.

thgear
11-25-2015, 12:50 PM
in any industry change is constant.

yes and a big chunk of that change is often redundant or highly inefficient

change for the sake of change is a tall order for an organization with limited funds and human resources

Your cute Kodak reference is out of place. Kodak lost ground because they chose not to pursue a new product idea. Not because they didn't include film-development instructions with every single film roll.

If you wanted to develop yourself, you asked for a spec sheets, and if you didn't know how to read a spec sheet, you asked for clarification.

Questions leads to Answers.

If questions are replaced by complaints, what's left to do? And that's NOT a rhetorical question.

JoeT
11-25-2015, 01:19 PM
It's totally relevant. They died because they didn't take action on the up and coming digital self serve age. It's nothing g to do with instructions. Hahahahah

That's a case of looking at data and making changes in different drectio to the marketplace.

Which is what has been occurring here.

With a loss of 12.5K and 30 percent attrition where do you think this is going.

Think long and hard, but do yourself a favor and think outside your existing sphere. Because while I do agree that you have to cater to your current customer, you also have to recruit new customers in order to grow.

thgear
11-25-2015, 01:45 PM
It's nothing to do with instructions.

we're talking about our classification system, which is straight forward IF you read the rulebook (instructions).


With a loss of 12.5K and 30 percent attrition where do you think this is going.

I don't know where it's going. I dipped out cuz it's too expensive. But labeling our classification system as some sort of huge barrier to entry is just silly... it is the sole distinction between other series! It's what makes OTA different!

Is it easy as siri? No. You gotta read a bit, you gotta think a bit, and usually a few seasons go by before most people "get it".


When you learn how to play chess. Do you learn how a pawn moves and then demand to start the game? That bothering to learn how the other pieces move is too difficult and should be changed? Maybe then checkers is for you....

thgear
11-25-2015, 02:11 PM
the things that are currently in need of fixing are borderline intangible

costs aside, (and they're probably the single most important aspect), the main factor is the atmosphere we provide

ATTS attracts people that don't take things too serious. They don't care that the classification is simple, they care because the classification is irrelevant.

The event is advertised for newbies to be newbies. It's cheap and you don't have to worry because there are no 1st or 2nd places, everybody wins!

some time ago, solosprint/ota got the air of being super intimidating/serious and we've not been able to shake that off since.

if there's to be further rebooting it has to start somewhere else

you say think outside the box? How about you stop hitting the same god damn nail, you're only loosening the board; either replace it with a screw or move on to another part of the project.

wparsons
11-25-2015, 03:26 PM
^^ Slight clarification Serge, the past two years (maybe longer), ATTS has just been lapping days. The competition aspect was removed at some point.

thgear
11-25-2015, 03:36 PM
^^ Slight clarification Serge, the past two years (maybe longer), ATTS has just been lapping days. The competition aspect was removed at some point.

maybe that's the future then, highly organized lapping days

people post great reviews (that I'm reading) and have a lot of fun

and it seems the moment the C word drops everyone sorta backs out. Times are certainly changing.

JoeT
11-25-2015, 04:21 PM
Times are certainly changing.

I'm glad to see that you understand!!

Next!!

Gary
11-25-2015, 07:31 PM
Interesting discussion between Joe and Serge. Points that resonated with me include:

1. Adapt or die - hard to disagree with this
2. Feedback from those who don't run OTA as to the reasons why include cost and difficulties understanding the rules. - I've read all the responses, and I'd argue that cost is the most frequently mentioned reason by far. That said, rules get mentioned numerous times, so it isn't a non-issue. Often though, they are both mentioned in the same post, and the way my brain is wired, I wind up thinking that of the two issues, cost is more important. It gets mentioned first. And, I wind up thinking that overcoming the cost barrier would make the perceptions about the rules manageable.
3. Serge makes many very good points about the OTA rules. I agree with him. It's really not that tough, if you simply sit down and read them, and work through the CCDB. That said, I completely understand that this is a barrier to some folks.

The question is: are those people who don't like the "complexity" of the rules part of OTA's target market? Because there is an alternative for those who want simple rules. The CSCS Time Attack rulebook is 20 pages long. That's everything, including competition rules. There are three classes, based on drive type, and three preparation levels. That's it. Very simple. http://cscs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2015-CSCS-Time-Attack-RuleBook.pdf I've never been to a CSCS event, but I'm sure they're fun. What day spent at the track isn't fun? I might go to one in the future, who knows?

But, and here's the point, CSCS time attack might be competitive, but it can't possibly be an even competition. The classes and rules are too wide open for that. That's neither good nor bad. It is what it is.

On the other hand, OTA has the rules it does because the emphasis is on evenly matched competition. And, as the shootout proved, among our top level competitors, is it ever evenly matched! Again, it is what it is, but without a proper rules framework, you don't get even competition.

So, it comes down to picking your particular flavour of poison. Want a wide open rule set? There's an option for that. Want close competition on a level playing field? There's an option for that. Neither option is perfect, and there may be flavours in between, but the products are currently different enough to be noticeable.

It seems to me that changing OTA into CSCS by making the rules simple just abandons one market in favour of another, and more to the point, it's a market that is already served. Why go head to head with CSCS?

We know there are people who run both series. We want to keep those folks. And, we know there are interested people who are customers of neither series. We want to grab some of those people. Low cost "newbie" events might be a big help. And, this is where marketing really matters. I'd argue that the "evolve or die" focus needs to be on marketing and promotion, not the rules. I think rule set objections are manageable if cost can be addressed. There are those who will never overcome their concerns about the rules, and I'd argue that they are CSCS or lapping day customers, not OTA's. Cost is a bigger problem, but the reduction in the number of events should help that by building the number of competitors at each event and lowering the cost per competitor. I'm telling everyone I know about how great I think OTA is, and that they should give it a shot. Not sure that's enough. It would be better if we could all do it.

John P
11-25-2015, 07:41 PM
Gary, Good summary of discussion. I agree with you.

JohnP

Saj5DJ
11-25-2015, 09:14 PM
One vote for not coming back if rules went all CSCS'y. I can't afford to run a competitive car with a ruleset like that.

Without turning this into another CSCS vs OTA thread (truly, please!): How many cars did CSCS get out this season to Time Attack over how many events?

JoeT
11-25-2015, 09:20 PM
I'm questioning where it was mentioned that we wanted to KILL what is good with OTA and make it CSCS. Is that the conclusion that you all have come up with? Really!!

Please help us help ourselves and educate the masses on where it was mentioned to turn OTA into CSCS.

Barry / Gary go for it!!

Kelly is up to date on the actions, and the first steps have been undertaken.

G-ForceJunkie
11-25-2015, 09:38 PM
For what it's worth for some of the people that haven't been around a while, in 2008, you could run the entire 10 event series, including 2 events at Calabogie, and 2 at MIR, for $1270! In 2015, the 9 event series, with just 1 event at MIR, and 1 at Calabogie, cost $2470!

Saj5DJ
11-25-2015, 09:45 PM
Not at all Joe, didnt think thats what you're driving at. Was responding to Gary's post (and I know you weren't suggesting that wither Gary).

For the record, money is the reason I'm not there as well. Kids and houses do make the race cars vanish. Fewer championship eventd going forward helps on this one for sure. Having to run 7 was a little taxing.

We should probably figure out though when folks talk ruleset: Is it car classing, or is it everything else? There's a whole bunch of rule book that isn't the former.

We're working this year on getting more club event only folks out to regional autoslalom. Several of those clubs run the exact same ruleset. The issue really seems to be one more of having newcomers welcome, they won't be in the way, we'll help them along, they'll be included etc. Of course we do all this, but we need to to work on the perception so that folks know we do all this.

We're working on plans for a "Rookie Friendly" regional day with a school on the proceeding day. It'll be a full event, but it'll be billed as "newcomers come first, we'll gladly watch you take out 50 cones, not raise an eyebrow and help you out on the next run." Point being to show that every event has that support available. We need a less lame name for it :)

Few other things we're working on too.

Do people on the outside know they can class their car in 5 mins flat with a webform and a list of their own car mods? They need to.

Dave Barker
11-25-2015, 10:51 PM
Actually, I would suggest that going to iPAX makes the rules as far as classing is concerned, much simpler, not more complex. If you are running iPAX, it doesn't really matter what class you are in (not really something I like, but there it is)

In our present system, far too many drivers fret about meeting the max PI per class without going over to the next higher class, (hence all the arguments we get from people who claim that their particular car is classed unfairly). Now that we have iPAX all people have to do is prepare their car to whatever level they like. Seems simpler to me.

As far as costs go, all the tracks have increased their fees big time (DDT in particular is almost twice what it cost 3 years ago) so I don't see any way around that. Also the fees now provide for paid marshals and FAR better safety as concerns paramedics and rescue extrication teams so Andy's comparison to the "good ol' days" when it was cheap to go to the track are not valid given the extra services provided. (Andy, having paid marshals also leads to significantly more track time for competitors)

Frankly the biggest increase in costs (IMO) has been the cost of having competitive tires for the season. At least dropping a few events means you are more likely to be able to make it through with 1 set but again, this is beyond our control. Maybe I should have bought a Miata.

wparsons
11-25-2015, 10:58 PM
Do people on the outside know they can class their car in 5 mins flat with a webform and a list of their own car mods? They need to.

The feedback on rules/classing I've heard falls into three categories

1) Too complex

2) Car was built for something else, not as competitive by OTA rules

3) Rules do too much to remove the car from the equation

For 1, I'm not sure how many have looked at the CCDB, or if they just saw the rule book and got overwhelmed. Having more specific feedback on this would be really helpful.

For 2, iPax *should* alleviate some of this. It won't fix a purpose built CSCS car, but it should help with autoslalom guys or people who modded a car with no end goal wanting to try out some time attack.

For 3, I wouldn't want to change that since that is what differentiates OTA from other series' out there.

The way I see it, one of the biggest deterrents right now is lack of easy to find information. If we make it SUPER simple for someone to google OTA and know exactly what they need in 5 minutes (including basic car classification), then we're much less likely to be discouraging people before they even get to an event.

Gary
11-25-2015, 11:47 PM
Joe, I hope I have not annoyed you. That wasn't my intent. Your first post mentioned cost and complexity. That got me thinking. I am analytical by nature, so, I re-read the exchange between you and Serge. Then I read all the Facebook posts. And, I thought about it. I agree with you that cost is an issue. But, for the reasons I set out, I don't think that the rules which give us a (reasonably) level playing field for competition are an unmanageable issue. That's because a) I believe that cost issues trump rules complexity as a barrier to peoples participation and b) there is a clear alternative for those who want simple rules, and I do not think we need to try to compete with that alternative. And of course, all of the above is just my opinion.

What got my attention from all of the Facebook posts was the level of interest that people had in knowing more about Time Attack and OTA. What great news! And that is why I closed my post by expressing the view that marketing and promoting the series is really important. If we can effectively market the series and address the cost issues, then I believe that people's concerns about the rules can be managed without changing the rules. But, again, that's just my opinion.

JoeT
11-25-2015, 11:52 PM
Thank you...

Let's add Creative packaging to the marketing and we should be able to affect things positively.

As you're aware, there is a strategy afoot to lower the costs. If you don't have kelly's letter, I'll be glad to discuss privately the 2 strategies. Either way, the cost can and will come down.

Thanks again.

Dave Barker
11-26-2015, 08:41 AM
Joe and others are completely right that what the series needs to do is decrease the perceived "barriers to entry". Years ago in the Solo 1 and SoloSprint days, we used to see a large number of folks who only ran 1 or 2 events a year but most of those folks have disappeared and now we have a fair number who run the complete or almost complete series but few OTA "dabblers" . We have to be able to make the series easy enough to enter that new people will find it worthwhile to enter just a few events.

BTW, obviously cost is a huge issue for any involved and even more so for those newbies who are not yet addicted to tracking their car. OTOH, cost is definitely NOT the reason we don't see a lot of CSCS folks who pay very similar prices to OTA to run on smaller, cheaper tracks with generally less track time.

10gt61
11-26-2015, 11:15 AM
Much good discussion here and each one of you has valid thoughts and ideas.
As for rules and classification, I fall into the category of not finding them difficult. However if some do, or at least if some perceive them to be difficult, it is important that we make adjustments as may be necessary, assist those individuals, and get them into OTA.

The CSCS vs OTA vs lapping is a non issue I think. We all offer different products. At OTA we stress competition. There is a market for that. We have excellent and fair competition and that is our strength. We should build on it. People that take part in it love it. We just need more people! So initiatives have been undertaken and are being developed to market ourselves better and hopefully offer competitors a fair price.

As for PAX vs iPAX, there really was a lot of time and discussion regarding this issue before a decision was made. I see people's points on both sides, but I think iPAX is worth a try. Take my own experience as an example: I have competed in GT4, GT3 and GT2 under the PAX system. In each class I felt obliged to make sure I was maxed out for available PIPs within the class, to be competitive. That meant adding the mods I really wanted plus some I just hoped would make a difference. With iPAX I can take any car, add what I really think will work on that car and not be concerned with maxing out within a particular class. I have to be smart about the mods and be a good driver!

I have met with the OTA executive and the clubs. There has been valuable discussion and feedback about changes for next season. I have also initiated requests that would assist us at OTA from CASC. There is a lot going on right now and a lot of people are working very hard behind the scenes to make sure we provide a great series for you. I am optimistic about our future.

Whether you agree or disagree with me or with OTA, we still welcome your input. It gives us even more to consider and that can only be helpful. Thanks for your participation.

Grant Galloway
11-26-2015, 02:21 PM
Being new to OTA, I have no problem with the rules and have had plenty of direction from guys like Corey W and Scott M

Too be honest I wish I had listened to Corey closer from the beginning I probably would have left my engine all stock and spent all the money on Suspension, Tires etc.

The self reporting nature of the PIP schedule is interesting, not accusing people of cheating, but it does open the door for omitting certain modifications.

Some of the cars are ridiculous with missing rear bumpers and giant holes in the hoods for extra cooling, I would rather see cleaner looking cars, but I can live with it.

I shy away from CSCS because the rules seem to vague for me!

Although I find the entry fees for OTA a little pricey, they wouldn't make or break me running in the series.

The rules however complicated don't bother me at all....

You want to promote OTA, you have to do it at the grassroots level.. Track day guys have far deeper pockets than OTA guys do! We need to get some of those trackday only guys out and they will be hooked...

That's where the focus should be, change is good! (Unless it's Trudeau LOL)

Grant

jimmo-san
11-27-2015, 10:27 AM
We're working on plans for a "Rookie Friendly" regional day with a school on the proceeding day. It'll be a full event, but it'll be billed as "newcomers come first, we'll gladly watch you take out 50 cones, not raise an eyebrow and help you out on the next run." Point being to show that every event has that support available. We need a less lame name for it :)

That's a great idea, Barry. I was trying to come up with a similar idea in an earlier post:


Make it Easier to Get Involved in OTA


Have a 1-day “Intro to OTA” track experience event where, for a nominal fee (e.g. $100) potential new participants can ride along with an instructor, drive their own car on the track and receive some class-room instruction. Possibly repeat it later in the season; e.g. one day at CTMP DDT and one day at SMP. Combine it with an OTA-sponsored lapping day to help pay expenses.

Repeat the two-day OTA school later in the season. Possibly at SMP to attract participants from Belleville, Brockville, Kingston and the surrounding area.


Alternatively (or in addition), if OTA participants were willing to give up some track time at events, new-comers to OTA might find it less intimidating if there was a Novice run group during morning lapping, strictly for novices. So there would be three run groups at each event: X, Y and Z. Z for novices. "Z" to make the name less pejorative. :)

wparsons
11-27-2015, 03:24 PM
Alternatively (or in addition), if OTA participants were willing to give up some track time at events, new-comers to OTA might find it less intimidating if there was a Novice run group during morning lapping, strictly for novices. So there would be three run groups at each event: X, Y and Z. Z for novices. "Z" to make the name less pejorative. :)

That is already the case if there are enough novices to justify it. Not sure it's publicized at all though.

jimmo-san
11-28-2015, 10:51 AM
That is already the case if there are enough novices to justify it. Not sure it's publicized at all though.

Although currently X and Y can join the novice run group if they choose to. I'm suggesting that the Z group would be Novices-only, all the time.

Dave Barker
11-29-2015, 11:13 AM
Although currently X and Y can join the novice run group if they choose to. I'm suggesting that the Z group would be Novices-only, all the time.

Jim, for the first few events, the novice only group may have a few Touring cars as well but it is basically a novice group only.

By the end of the season we have very few if any novices so it does not justify taking away that much track time from the other competitors.

Slowpoke
11-30-2015, 02:27 PM
Kyle, I understand where you're coming from, but for right now we have two bigger priorities to address:

- Make sure there are more competitors in 2016
- Make sure there's still an OTA in 2017

The SPDA Facebook poll highlighted the cost issue very well. iPax addresses that by better allowing someone to bring out a stock or otherly optimized car out to our series without having to spend massive modification money. Sure, you're still going to want sticky streets and a performance alignment, but you'll benefit from those at more than just OTA. It's hard to avoid investing in those two things and still be calling it racing anyway.

Imagine if you have an older Z06 or E46 M3 (the current budget minded fast cars) and found yourself 0.1 into the next class. It costs that person far more to optimize to the next class than most T3 car owners. Yet their goals and operating budgets might be relatively the same as the T3 driver. We have to keep the cost of competing level everywhere we can.

In 2005 you could win your class with a 60.000 and the guy five classes above you could have a 60.001 and win the event. We fixed that with Pax. iPax is going to do that to a finer detail.

We didn't want to get rid of the existing classes because the PI we have today are still (mostly) tied to those class track records. We'd be giving up a good database of information if we cut classes.

So rather than thinking that you have to prep to 5.0 PI classes as you did with Pax, you now have to prep to 0.1 PI intervals with iPax. If that 0.1 PI doesn't gain you 0.02 seconds on a 75 second lap, you're wasting money. Really this has opened a new optimization challenge that didn't exist before; how to do the minimum amount to go faster.

This isn't going to address that the top cars in the series are on higher value suspensions. You're still going to find that the best prepared cars are going to excel.

Reality is, you were competing against several people who were prepped to the middle of the class and had claimed "like to do in the future mods" to max out their prep schedules, but they'd never done them for budget or project direction change reasons. You are going to have to prep harder and drive better in 2016, my friend! ;)

Grant: Drive more horsepower and you will find that venting the hood becomes very important. Also makes it faster, safer and easier to apply fire extinguishing chemicals when needed.

We've added the rear bumper skin removal to the Diffuser pip because we're hoping that those folks doing those mods will go the full monte and do a spiffy looking diffuser to go along with it in 2016.

As for rule complexity... Some things will be re-written in a better way for 2016. Other than that, to maintain OTA's appreciated "classify (most) anything fairly" market differentiator, we're going to have to put one hell of a GUI on our ruleset to make it easier to get involved. That will be a never-ending project.

2TH PWR
11-30-2015, 02:30 PM
Some of the cars are ridiculous with missing rear bumpers and giant holes in the hoods for extra cooling, I would rather see cleaner looking cars, but I can live with it.



e-Shots Fired!

Grant Galloway
11-30-2015, 03:42 PM
LOL....

You're not the only one with an ugly car, but hey it's function over form... And it's fast as hell! :cool:

I drive a rice burner, feel free to take some shots...

Grant

2TH PWR
11-30-2015, 07:19 PM
LOL....

You're not the only one with an ugly car,
Grant

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/explosion_zpspxcmammk.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/explosion_zpspxcmammk.jpg.html)

I think it looks amazing!

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j300/2THPWR/11062818_888758154531070_314360199487271935_o_zps2l32qjwh.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/2THPWR/media/11062818_888758154531070_314360199487271935_o_zps2l32qjwh.jpg.html)


Side note: As you can see in this pic my bumper has not been completely removed. The upper section of it remains and it holds my lights. The bottom has been trimmed for my custom exhaust which exits higher up. = approved mod? Just kidding, I know you want me to change it to a stock one or take the pip.

Grant Galloway
11-30-2015, 09:02 PM
I almost bought a 370Z a couple of years ago, I love how they look wide and short lots of mechanical grip and short wheelbase helps them turn well!

Keeping my Civic to learn how to drive, then I will buy a Cayman in a few years.. (those are sexy cars)

I still have a lot to learn though!

Grant

Gary
11-30-2015, 09:23 PM
We've added the rear bumper skin removal to the Diffuser pip because we're hoping that those folks doing those mods will go the full monte and do a spiffy looking diffuser to go along with it in 2016.

This!:D

I think the car looks great, but it would be beyond fantastic with a rear diffuser. You have all winter to build it........:)

Silvia_Drift
12-01-2015, 03:07 PM
Any chance of letting my S2000 run with stock roll protection? No....ok, thanks bye :(

thgear
12-01-2015, 03:20 PM
Any chance of letting my S2000 run with stock roll protection? No....ok, thanks bye :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLVgFNTnIg

Silvia_Drift
12-01-2015, 05:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLVgFNTnIg

lol!

But I managed to run a full season with CSCS this year and survived with no aftermarket roll protection!

http://www.skootermedia.com/wp-content/skootermedia/cscsjuly5/DSC07322.jpg

Slowpoke
12-01-2015, 05:50 PM
Any chance of letting my S2000 run with stock roll protection? No....ok, thanks bye :(

I personally wish that we could have you and your next of kin sign a special "I realize I'm playing Russian Roulette here" waiver that you could have notarized each year and that we could let you all in. I'm guessing that ASN / FIA isn't on board. Setting safety standards based on experience or something.

Hopefully one day soon... In the meantime, I hear that the Miata and S2000 crowd is growing at CSCS and I'm sincerely happy that our limitations aid their success and that you have a place you can play.

Doug P
12-01-2015, 10:12 PM
lol!

But I managed to run a full season with CSCS this year and survived with no aftermarket roll protection!



Was this the video you were looking for? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vreUlIu3-x4


Good luck at Mosport finding all your body pieces, and I don't mean the car.

Dave Barker
12-01-2015, 10:46 PM
lol!

But I managed to run a full season with CSCS this year and survived with no aftermarket roll protection!

http://www.skootermedia.com/wp-content/skootermedia/cscsjuly5/DSC07322.jpg


Hope your harness is really good. Looks like your helmet sticks up higher than a line between the windshield header and the OEM "roll over protection", and that is with gravity on your side. Gravity won't be your friend if you are upside down and it won't matter how good your helmet is.

Silvia_Drift
12-02-2015, 12:24 AM
No harness, oem belts.

My roll over protection is simply keeping the shiny side up. Unless you get extra points in ota for doing barrel rolls. If that is the case, I should probably invest in a roll bar.

Grant Galloway
12-02-2015, 12:55 AM
Did that guy fall asleep? or did he lose steering in the front end?

Never really understood the crowd hanging over that cement wall there either??

Grant

Dave Barker
12-02-2015, 08:46 AM
No harness, oem belts.

My roll over protection is simply keeping the shiny side up. Unless you get extra points in ota for doing barrel rolls. If that is the case, I should probably invest in a roll bar.


Yes, there are differences in the rules between the two series.

Personally, I have seen cars roll at both tracks at Shannonville, MIR and DDT despite the best efforts of the drivers involved. One was a Miata with a good aftermarket roll bar that did it's job well and he was fine.

Sylvia, I don't think you would have done so well in your car in that situation.

thgear
12-02-2015, 10:15 AM
But I managed to run a full season with CSCS this year and survived with no aftermarket roll protection!


every year you post the same thing, proving nothing more than that you're comfortably sitting in the general distribution of motorsport statistics.

the rules exist for outliers

10gt61
12-02-2015, 11:39 AM
My roll over protection is simply keeping the shiny side up.

As a motorsport director and past competitor, it is my job and desire to attract people to our sport. But if you know me, you know that I stress safety first. Inherent with any type of racing is a certain level of risk. We all should be aware of it. Crashes happen, from carting to F1 and everything in between. No one in any of those crashes planned for them to happen or wanted them to happen! That is the point. As someone who has gone into a wall and rolled, I can tell you that it's over in milliseconds. I was very happy to be in a well engineered and safe car with strong A, B and C pillars, and a steel roof over my head. In your case, without safer rollover protection.........? I urge you to reconsider your position on this.

wparsons
12-02-2015, 12:17 PM
Did that guy fall asleep? or did he lose steering in the front end?

Never really understood the crowd hanging over that cement wall there either??

Grant

RHD car, misjudged the distance to the wall.

2TH PWR
12-02-2015, 12:24 PM
RHD car, misjudged the distance to the wall.

Not even his own car. No experience. Borrowing it for a couple laps. Understeer. Panic.

endura
12-02-2015, 12:47 PM
I personally wish that we could have you and your next of kin sign a special "I realize I'm playing Russian Roulette here" waiver that you could have notarized each year and that we could let you all in. I'm guessing that ASN / FIA isn't on board. Setting safety standards based on experience or something.

Hopefully one day soon... In the meantime, I hear that the Miata and S2000 crowd is growing at CSCS and I'm sincerely happy that our limitations aid their success and that you have a place you can play.


-I was under the impression ''russian roulette'' waiver's were already mandatory for track events. what's the difference in this particular case?
-I've seen fully caged/street driven cars at CSCS events, can't get safer than that!! :D

wparsons
12-02-2015, 12:54 PM
-I was under the impression ''russian roulette'' waiver's were already mandatory for track events. what's the difference in this particular case?
-I've seen fully caged/street driven cars at CSCS events, can't get safer than that!! :D

The insurance provider (ASN/FIA) doesn't allow it, that's the difference.

dubya_rx
12-02-2015, 12:58 PM
The insurance provider (ASN/FIA) doesn't allow it, that's the difference.

Serious question... who does CSCS use for insurance? Could OTA use them?

endura
12-02-2015, 01:11 PM
The insurance provider (ASN/FIA) doesn't allow it, that's the difference.

I figured that was the case. tks. Seems illogical to me not allowing a convertible with minimal roll protection but a challenger hellcat on mosport gp is covered. weird.
I do understand, it is what is is. once lawyers get involved, logic and common sense goes out the window. too bad.

3wheeler
12-02-2015, 01:29 PM
The insurance provider (ASN/FIA) doesn't allow it, that's the difference.

Furthermore, waivers do not mean someone cannot sue. A waiver cannot include negligence, and if OTA allowed people to compete in cars(convertibles with no after market roll cage/bar), it would be just that.

Thankfully OTA errs on the side caution and does its best to eliminate the chance of something like that happening. It would be stupid not to protect their own interests just to please a select few.

Lastly, those who cannot make sense of this need to give their head a shake. And if you're still too thick-skulled to understand, do not blame the organizers, blame the ambulance chasers.

endura
12-02-2015, 01:53 PM
Furthermore, waivers do not mean someone cannot sue. A waiver cannot include negligence, and if OTA allowed people to compete in cars(convertibles with no after market roll cage/bar), it would be just that.

Thankfully OTA errs on the side caution and does its best to eliminate the chance of something like that happening. It would be stupid not to protect their own interests just to please a select few.

Lastly, those who cannot make sense of this need to give their head a shake. And if you're still too thick-skulled to understand, do not blame the organizers, blame the ambulance chasers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIYi5DCqQfc

I'm too thick skulled to understand, correct. You willingly did a W2W ''fun race'' at one of the fastest tracks on the planet. Did every car there have a full cage/hans/fire protection/arm restraints? was the event sanctioned by ASN/FIA? was it insured? If yes, I happily retract my comments. If not, go ahead and shake your own thick-skull.

Saj5DJ
12-02-2015, 02:03 PM
Are you guys seriously asking for OTA to do away with the rollbar requirement for open top cars, or is it just a bit of pissing match?

If the former, I guess you can be happy that the only organizer of timed track events in North America that allows such a thing is in your backyard.

thgear
12-02-2015, 02:20 PM
Are you guys seriously asking for OTA to do away with the rollbar requirement for open top cars, or is it just a bit of pissing match?

If the former, I guess you can be happy that the only organizer of timed track events in North America that allows such a thing is in your backyard.

they want to us admit to double standards so as to make their claim that rollbars are pointless valid

endura
12-02-2015, 02:22 PM
Are you guys seriously asking for OTA to do away with the rollbar requirement for open top cars, or is it just a bit of pissing match?

If the former, I guess you can be happy that the only organizer of timed track events in North America that allows such a thing is in your backyard.

- IMO, Ramesh (silvia drift) is insane to drive a convertible without a roll bar on any track.
-IMO, if Ramesh wants to do it, it's his choice.
-Reality, however, is the insurance/liability situation, I get it. CASC is a volunteer driven organization, and I know they want what I want. More involvement in motorsports at a grassroots level. How does CSCS insure these events? Is their coverage unacceptable/inadequate?

-if we could keep this a practical conversation instead of "I'm skilled enough to do W2W at Mosport GP but you can't track an S2K at TMP", that would be great. throwing the ''but it's safety'' blanket is easy, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm allowed to come out with a 300whp Miata with a roll bar and oem belts to Mosport GP and do time attack.
or maybe I'm just weird.

3wheeler
12-02-2015, 02:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIYi5DCqQfc

I'm too thick skulled to understand, correct. You willingly did a W2W ''fun race'' at one of the fastest tracks on the planet. Did every car there have a full cage/hans/fire protection/arm restraints? was the event sanctioned by ASN/FIA? was it insured? If yes, I happily retract my comments. If not, go ahead and shake your own thick-skull.


Thanks for sharing the video :) It was an absolute blast. If there is anything you would like to know about the club, check out the link below.

https://www.trillium-bmwclub.ca/

I did that race school a couple years ago(well almost) and I am not so sure I would do it again now that I am out of the hobby and looking at things from a different perspective. Not sure if you would call that being thick-skulled though; maybe stupid or irresponsible? Any ways, there is one important difference that you seemed to have missed...

I did NOT insist or expect that they allow me or others similar cars to compete - it was in their rules. AND, I certainly wouldn't criticize them now if they changed their(BMW Trillium club) minds on what they allow.

Reminder: This discussion is about OTA and why they do not allow convertibles to compete. Not about ones personal choices or those of other clubs/organizations.

3wheeler
12-02-2015, 02:44 PM
"I'm skilled enough to do W2W at Mosport GP but you can't track an S2K at TMP", that would be great.

Clearly twisting my words to try and validate your opinion.

Since when did this become a me vs. anybody? :confused:

Once again, this discussion is about OTA and the fact that they do not want to leave the door open for irresponsible people like me to risk serious injury, and sue them for negligence. Simple as that.

Saj5DJ
12-02-2015, 02:50 PM
Insurance, liability etc is one aspect of it.

Even if that went away though... I know what you're saying, there's fast cars out there and motorsport is never 100% safe.

That being said, there's certain things that are accepted throughout the continent with various experienced and respected organizations as being essential safety items. Removing one of those and then seeing something happen as a consequence of that decision... man that'd be tough to live with. Would be disastrous for the sport that we love and are invested in too.

Even dropping that for now; a ruleset that allows Jonny Dangerous to save 60-70lbs worth of roll bar, because his own safety is his own business, vs. someone that doesn't want to take the risk is a little unfair and, in practice, would discourage the use of safety equipment if it was left to choice.

Please guys, love OTA, hate OTA, love CSCS, hate CSCS, doesn't matter. Get a bar over your head and look after yourselves out there. Shit happens, doesn't matter how good you are if someone blows coolant on the track in front of you.

endura
12-02-2015, 02:58 PM
Thanks for sharing the video :) It was an absolute blast. If there is anything you would like to know about the club, check out the link below.

https://www.trillium-bmwclub.ca/

I did that race school a couple years ago(well almost) and I am not so sure I would do it again now that I am out of the hobby and looking at things from a different perspective. Not sure if you would call that being thick-skulled though; maybe stupid or irresponsible? Any ways, there is one important difference that you seemed to have missed...

I did NOT insist or expect that they allow me or others similar cars to compete - it was in their rules. AND, I certainly wouldn't criticize them now if they changed their(BMW Trillium club) minds on what they allow.

Reminder: This discussion is about OTA and why they do not allow convertibles to compete. Not about ones personal choices or those of other clubs/organizations.

fair point Corey.
can the broader conversation evolve to if the bmw club can hold a w2w event at mosport gp with street cars mixed in, and cscs runs events with no roll bar s2k's, do they not have insurance coverage? I can't imagine the BMW club not having any lawyers on the BOD's or leaving themselves exposed to a lawsuit. The latter extends to CSCS also.

is CASC losing out to the trend of less caged track cars and more dual duty street/track toys in the marketplace?

thgear
12-02-2015, 02:58 PM
How does CSCS insure these events? Is their coverage unacceptable/inadequate?

You'd need to ask the CSCS organizers about that. Their coverage might be acceptable and adequate for their needs, but we don't know that.

We know that OTA coverage for OTA organizer is somewhat of a safety blanket which everyone hopes they will never have to turn to.

If Ramesh rolls and dies at CSCS, and his family sues, it may very well put an end to CSCS.

If they sue CASC/OTA, we have sufficient coverage to weather the storm, and the individual organizers will be somewhat protected.

I organized a few events, looking back I realize now what a ridiculously huge risk that is in the grand scheme of things. You sign a waiver, sure, but your grieving family won't give a damn about that and they'll serve papers to anyone and everyone they can get their hands on.

thekid
12-02-2015, 03:26 PM
Above and beyond whatever insurance exists and waivers are signed. If there is a catastrophic injury or death, a criminal investigation could ensue and if an organizer were found to be negligent in their due diligence (and I'd argue not having a rule for rollover protection on a convertible would likely fall in that category), could result in criminal negligence charges against the organizers, which isn't something that money or insurance is going to fix if the court finds them guilty.

There are no organizations to hide behind and part of the reason that organizers are going to err on the side of caution with rules. Same reason that things like HNR devices have been mandated in most W2W series whether insurance has mandated it or not.

Silvia_Drift
12-02-2015, 05:01 PM
Unfortunately, it seems like the insurance is the main reason for the convertible roll bar rule.

My reason for not running a rollbar is that my car is a street car. I feel as though it is a higher risk knocking my head off a roll bar on the street rather than flipping at the track. Plus, I don't like how roll bars look in S2000s lol.

I appreciate all of the effort OTA organizers put into their series. I attended an OTA banquet back when I was 17 and have wanted to compete ever since. It sucks that I've been tracking open top cars for the past 10 years and need to stick to autox, open lapping and CSCS.

Sorry for beating a dead horse but I get bored after I put my car away for the winter.

Grant Galloway
12-02-2015, 05:20 PM
I am going to chime in on this conversation, being I spent 10 years in the property and casualty insurance industry. I can tell you first hand that when things go wrong the lawsuits get ugly!

The reason why insurance companies don't like race cars or track days, is even though you are signing a waiver for damage. Under the OAP (Ontario Automobile Policy) they are by statutory mandates obligated to pay injury claims in the event of an on track incident.

Auto insurance is 2nd payee, that means if the driver or passenger have extensive disability insurance and group benefits through work, then the work benefits would pay first. This doesn't get the insurance company off the hook though, as their may be things the group policy won't cover and they will end up being claimed under the auto policy.

To my knowledge there are very few insurers that provide this type of motorsports participation liability, so most of the wordings are the same. The sanctioning bodies need to protect themselves and their directors and officers from any type of personal liability.

In my experience, I would err on the side of caution if I were these sanctioning bodies; It will not be the guy with the brain damage suing the sanctioning body or the track. It will be his/her parents, wife/husband, children etc...

After all the people who are affected by your new disability, never chose to be your new caretaker, and they didn't sign the waiver!!

The courts are very sympathetic to these cases, I have seen it...

Just my $.02 cents worth

Grant

endura
12-02-2015, 05:38 PM
I am going to chime in on this conversation, being I spent 10 years in the property and casualty insurance industry. I can tell you first hand that when things go wrong the lawsuits get ugly!

The reason why insurance companies don't like race cars or track days, is even though you are signing a waiver for damage. Under the OAP (Ontario Automobile Policy) they are by statutory mandates obligated to pay injury claims in the event of an on track incident.

Auto insurance is 2nd payee, that means if the driver or passenger have extensive disability insurance and group benefits through work, then the work benefits would pay first. This doesn't get the insurance company off the hook though, as their may be things the group policy won't cover and they will end up being claimed under the auto policy.

To my knowledge there are very few insurers that provide this type of motorsports participation liability, so most of the wordings are the same. The sanctioning bodies need to protect themselves and their directors and officers from any type of personal liability.

In my experience, I would err on the side of caution if I were these sanctioning bodies; It will not be the guy with the brain damage suing the sanctioning body or the track. It will be his/her parents, wife/husband, children etc...

After all the people who are affected by your new disability, never chose to be your new caretaker, and they didn't sign the waiver!!

The courts are very sympathetic to these cases, I have seen it...

Just my $.02 cents worth

Grant

Grant. This is all understood and agreed. The question is how does CSCS get coverage for no roll bars/how did Trillium BMW club get coverage for Mosport GP W2W ''fun race''? I know who operates CSCS, they are neither stupid or crazy.

Silvia_Drift
12-02-2015, 05:39 PM
Grant. This is all understood and agreed. The question is how does CSCS get coverage for no roll bars/how did Trillium BMW club get coverage for Mosport GP W2W ''fun race''? I know who operates CSCS, they are neither stupid or crazy.

Well in the CSCS rulebook, it does say that aftermarket roll protection is required for convertibles. It just seems like that rule is not enforced.

endura
12-02-2015, 05:51 PM
Well in the CSCS rulebook, it does say that aftermarket roll protection is required for convertibles. It just seems like that rule is not enforced.

:eek:

ScotcH
12-02-2015, 06:00 PM
Unfortunately, it seems like the insurance is the main reason for the convertible roll bar rule.

My reason for not running a rollbar is that my car is a street car. I feel as though it is a higher risk knocking my head off a roll bar on the street rather than flipping at the track. Plus, I don't like how roll bars look in S2000s lol.

I appreciate all of the effort OTA organizers put into their series. I attended an OTA banquet back when I was 17 and have wanted to compete ever since. It sucks that I've been tracking open top cars for the past 10 years and need to stick to autox, open lapping and CSCS.

Sorry for beating a dead horse but I get bored after I put my car away for the winter.

So if you're that serious (or want to be) get another car ... there are plenty of closed top cars that are deals out there for OTA.

ScotcH
12-02-2015, 06:02 PM
Well in the CSCS rulebook, it does say that aftermarket roll protection is required for convertibles. It just seems like that rule is not enforced.

Lol .... :rolleyes:

Just like the Chinese lapping at SMP, where it states "helmets are strongly recommended for safety reasons". Yeah .... ok. And pants are strongly encouraged when going out in public. Does not stop some people from going out in their underpants.

wparsons
12-03-2015, 11:32 AM
Well in the CSCS rulebook, it does say that aftermarket roll protection is required for convertibles. It just seems like that rule is not enforced.

I would bet a lot that their insurance provider also requires rollbars for open cars, and if someone were to be injured in an open car without one it would get really ugly really fast. It wouldn't even need to be a rollover for the insurance company to start looking at a way out of covering them.

sjd
12-03-2015, 02:40 PM
In the meantime, I hear that the Miata and S2000 crowd is growing at CSCS and I'm sincerely happy that our limitations aid their success and that you have a place you can play.

While we know that the S2000 has roll bars available I would like to mention that Blackbird Fabworx is now building roll bars for both the 2006-2015 MX-5 and 2016+ MX-5 that still allow use of the factory soft top. They submitted the designs to the SCCA and have received 100% approval from them for PDX and Club Trials use.

nowcritical
12-03-2015, 09:48 PM
(Andy, having paid marshals also leads to significantly more track time for competitors)


I don't think that there is any more track time for competitors. I think there is less! Generally with the current setup we have 1 hour of lapping and 3 timed runs.

If we look at some of the competition in the market they offer the same amount of track time for a lower price and a much more fun and relaxed format.

Slowpoke
12-04-2015, 03:15 PM
I don't think that there is any more track time for competitors. I think there is less! Generally with the current setup we have 1 hour of lapping and 3 timed runs.

If we look at some of the competition in the market they offer the same amount of track time for a lower price and a much more fun and relaxed format.

I'm not sure that we have enough competitors to efficiently do self-marshaling anymore. Back in the day, it took lots of time to change marshals out, so the clerks would be jerks, and they left competitors out baking in the sun or getting soaked in the rain. The current system leaves more time to socialize, work on the car, or just rest between runs.

endura
12-04-2015, 03:50 PM
have the tire points been finalized? NASA kicked the RE71R/RIVAL S out of the 200TW class. will/can OTA do the same?

A. TIRES:
1) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: BFG R1S, Goodyear Eagle RS AC (auto-
cross), Hoosier A7, Hankook Z214 (C90 & C91 compounds only), Hoosier Wet DOT (if
used in dry conditions—see section 5.6) +22
2) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier A6 +17
3) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of
40 or less not listed otherwise in these rules: BFG R1, Goodyear Eagle RS, Hankook Z214
(C71, C70, C51, C50), Hoosier R7, Kumho V710 +10
4) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier SM7 +9
5) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier R6, Hoosier SM6 (note:
Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge EC-Dry tires (225, 245, 275) OK) +8
6) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Toyo Proxes RR, Hankook TD,
Pirelli Trofeo R +7
7) The following DOT-approved tires and those R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear
rating over 40: BFG Rival S, Bridgestone RE071-R, Maxxis RC-1 (examples: Kumho V700,
Kumho V720, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup & MPS Cup 2, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa,
Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokahama A048, etc.) +6
8) DOT-approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200
(examples: BFG g-Force Rival, Toyo R1R, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec,
Bridgestone Potenza RE070, Kumho Ecsta XS, Yokohama Advan A046 & Neova AD08,
Hankook R-S3) +2
9) Non-DOT-approved racing slicks +30 (of any origin--re-caps and re-treads are not permitted)

Gwoody27
12-05-2015, 11:12 AM
I don't think that there is any more track time for competitors. I think there is less! Generally with the current setup we have 1 hour of lapping and 3 timed runs.

If we look at some of the competition in the market they offer the same amount of track time for a lower price and a much more fun and relaxed format.

I am old and my memory is going away but my opinion is that we now get a lot more track time than when we marshaled and we are a lot less pressured now. We used to run lapping with no marshals and started competition much earlier due to the time used to changing the marshal crew. Drivers had little time to work on their cars during competition since they were always rushed to get back from marshaling and onto the grid.

We are now more safe, less stressed and have fewer interruptions to the flow of the weekend. The fact that we are now able to sell lapping in the morning
and run separate a separate novice run group in the morning indicates that we have more time for morning driving available. Later in the season when we don't have a novice group we often have a very light track load at the end of the morning.

Overall, it seems to me that we are far better off today.

Dave Barker
12-05-2015, 01:11 PM
I don't think that there is any more track time for competitors. I think there is less! Generally with the current setup we have 1 hour of lapping and 3 timed runs.

If we look at some of the competition in the market they offer the same amount of track time for a lower price and a much more fun and relaxed format.

Would you rather be marshalling? Or worse waiting for other marshals to get to their stations and waiting for those who have just marshalled to get back in? The gain in free track time is easily worth the $10 to $25 per event that it costs for paid marshals. Also these marshals are a heck of a lot better trained than most of our own competitors (or those at TMP :eek:) .

Maybe your concern is that we provide 3 timed runs which take up the whole afternoon. I am not aware of any other time trial series in Canada that devotes this much time to competition when all you have to worry about is you and the track, i.e.not having to deal with passing or being passed. Lapping days and other series may give a total of more track time (I would suggest usually for more money, not less) but it is pretty rare to get as many completely clear laps as you do in OTA.

have the tire points been finalized? NASA kicked the RE71R/RIVAL S out of the 200TW class. will/can OTA do the same?

A. TIRES:
1) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: BFG R1S, Goodyear Eagle RS AC (auto-
cross), Hoosier A7, Hankook Z214 (C90 & C91 compounds only), Hoosier Wet DOT (if
used in dry conditions—see section 5.6) +22
2) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier A6 +17
3) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of
40 or less not listed otherwise in these rules: BFG R1, Goodyear Eagle RS, Hankook Z214
(C71, C70, C51, C50), Hoosier R7, Kumho V710 +10
4) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier SM7 +9
5) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Hoosier R6, Hoosier SM6 (note:
Continental Tire Sportscar Challenge EC-Dry tires (225, 245, 275) OK) +8
6) The following DOT-approved R-compound tires: Toyo Proxes RR, Hankook TD,
Pirelli Trofeo R +7
7) The following DOT-approved tires and those R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear
rating over 40: BFG Rival S, Bridgestone RE071-R, Maxxis RC-1 (examples: Kumho V700,
Kumho V720, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup & MPS Cup 2, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa,
Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokahama A048, etc.) +6
8) DOT-approved (non-R-compound) tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 120-200
(examples: BFG g-Force Rival, Toyo R1R, Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec,
Bridgestone Potenza RE070, Kumho Ecsta XS, Yokohama Advan A046 & Neova AD08,
Hankook R-S3) +2
9) Non-DOT-approved racing slicks +30 (of any origin--re-caps and re-treads are not permitted)

Unfortunately trying to keep up with the relative speed potential of different tires is difficult, especially considering it is retrospective and can't really be prospective. Who knows what is going to be the "hot" tire for 2016? Also it becomes more complicated when the same tire is used on different vehicles i.e a Hoosier A7 is likely going to work a lot better on a car with modified suspension and alignment than on a bone stock street driven car. So the answer at this stage is no, we are not considering a change in tire classification.

You will notice that we still use a 140 or higher treadwear rating for "street" tires, not the 200 that SCCA uses as the numbers basically appear to be picked out of a hat.

Also note that there has been a trend towards street tire use (which may change with the success of Mike G and the R comp Hankook) but we basically hope that whatever tire a driver picks is the best tire within the class of tire he/she wants to pick. Puts the onus on the driver and not the rules committee.

Are the new "street" tires the equal of some old R comps? Likely. Equal to newer R comps? Not likely.

Gwoody27
12-05-2015, 05:05 PM
Dave B is correct that it is very hard to keep up with tire advances and that there are no prescribed tread wear rules or even guidelines. It seems to me that there are 2 solutions only one of which is in play for 2016.

1. The 2016 version: - competitors choose whichever they want to use as street tires over 140. This is the most expensive option for those looking to be ultimately competitive since it has meant getting the newest fastest tires every season, since they change so fast. In fact it has not been uncommon for some to switch mid season when the newest ones become available.

2. Maybe possible for the future: -have a "spec" street tire or maybe 2 different brands. The issue has always been discussed but the barriers have been the size selection and availability. I don't think that any tire company has been approached with the idea. Our market is just not large enough to ensure supply but perhaps if we get our numbers up and could guarantee a volume deal we could at least get an ear. In any case we really would need to see how many competitors would go for this idea before we could approach a tire company.

My 2 cents.

Grant Galloway
12-06-2015, 09:30 PM
I would be fine with a spec tire... Haven't decided whether I will run GT3 or GT2...

Grant

Grant Galloway
12-06-2015, 09:43 PM
I get my tires from Tires23 in Mississauga, already great pricing; I'm sure it would be better if everyone were to jump on board.

Problem is sizing, everyone would have to submit their tire sizes

wparsons
12-07-2015, 11:13 AM
A spec tire will definitely hinder the series' ability to grow, since it essentially cuts off anyone from another series, or newcomers, who don't happen to have our spec tire.

If we get to the point where every event is sold out, with a waiting list, then I like the idea, but until then I don't think it's feasible at all.