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gravlguts
12-06-2015, 11:00 AM
I thought I would add this here in case any of you aren't avid Facebook followers.

Do you think this could have been avoided?

http://drivenwheels.com/was-this-massive-le-mons-wreck-avoidable/

terrydale
12-06-2015, 11:19 AM
I thought I would add this here in case any of you aren't avid Facebook followers. Do you think this could have been avoided? http://drivenwheels.com/was-this-massive-le-mons-wreck-avoidable/

So. after watching this about 8-9 times, my first question is - Why is the Miata where it is - stationary on track?. It looks like it is all in one piece and undamaged - surely, just before it rolled to a dead stop, the driver could have pulled it off track DL?

Secondly - and prefacing with the comment that this is only one piece of video and I have been burned often enough when reviewing incidents to know that what you see is not always exactly what happened - as a driver and as a Race Steward, there is no way in good conscience could I lay 100% fault on the car that ran into the back of the yellow MX5. Restricted forward vision; a bunch of cars and activity leading up to the moment that could have caused distraction and/or limited the response options; the reasonable expectation that the track ahead would not have something stopped on-line; yada yada.

The first time watching, my reaction was that there was pretty much zero time to react and avoid. That initial reaction didn't change very much even after the 8th and 9th time. Again, the caveat that there might be a different angle that would allow for a different interpretation but for me, everyone is fortunate - it could have been much worse.

DavidSim
12-06-2015, 01:05 PM
>>Why the Miata is where it is - stationary on track?. It looks like it is all in one piece and undamaged - surely, just before it rolled to a dead stop, the driver could have pulled it off track DL?<<

My sentiments exactly.

terrydale
12-06-2015, 03:22 PM
I thought I would add this here in case any of you aren't avid Facebook followers. Do you think this could have been avoided?
http://drivenwheels.com/was-this-massive-le-mons-wreck-avoidable/

OK, so after watching it for the 10th and 11th time(!!!), I was looking for the flag status at the flagging stations. The first note is that there is a very long distance between the stations that are showing up in the short clip. Number 2, is that there is what seems to be a flag station right across from the MX5 that appears to have what looks like a white umbrella up but no flags.

Not looking to point a finger - everyone well knows that I am the biggest fan of flaggers and workers there is - BUT..........that MX5 didn't go from 120kph to zero in 10 feet. It must have had some issues before coming to a dead stop right across from the station. Begging the question - why is there no flag being displayed to cover a stopped car on course??!?

If there had been a waved yellow - for example - the responsibility scale would swing quite a bit towards the Porsche driver. Without that flag, I stick with my original assessment.

One of those things that one would hope would be looked at to explain what could have been a very bad situation with the intent being to avoid it ever happening again.

SlotMotorsports
12-06-2015, 06:15 PM
That was my first reaction . I can see any flag stands relaying information. The car was there long enough to be completely at rest.

Mike Canner
12-06-2015, 06:24 PM
Not looking to point a finger - everyone well knows that I am the biggest fan of flaggers and workers there is - BUT..........that MX5 didn't go from 120kph to zero in 10 feet. It must have had some issues before coming to a dead stop right across from the station. Begging the question - why is there no flag being displayed to cover a stopped car on course??!?



Interesting question. Looks like a long way between flag stations. It is hard to tell but it looks like the stopped car had not reached the flag station on drivers right, so it would be the prior flag stations responsibility to flag the incident and given the apparent distance between stations it is possible the vehicle slowed in the time since the pack passed the last flag station.

Slowpoke
12-06-2015, 07:51 PM
That's not an umbrella. In high res on a big screen, I think that's the marshal pulling out the white flag just as the MIata is getting hit. Why the Miata driver was stopped on track... I have no clue. Porsche driver coming over a crest drafting blue car to see the orange car heading stage left fast, Porsche moves left to find the Miata. I can't find fault with the Porsche driver for sure. He couldn't have assumed that the Miata would be almost fully stopped on the inside towards the next corner.

Don't know what happened to the yellow car. With how fast Orange left the track, there was probably more going on than the Porsche's camera caught.

My 2 cents.

Mike Canner
12-06-2015, 08:28 PM
In high res on a big screen, I think that's the marshal pulling out the white flag just as the MIata is getting hit

I agree, it looks like the white is just coming out as incident occurs, suggesting the Miata was just reaching the flag station. I also noticed at about 12 seconds there looks to be an unmanned flag location on drivers left. I wonder if they were running with a skeleton flag staff which would contribute to the lack of information to the drivers. Making it like CTMP with no one at 2A and no one drivers right going into three so there is a long time from passing the stand at 2 to the station drivers left well into turn 3. A lot can happen in that time...

DavidSim
12-06-2015, 09:22 PM
The chat here kind of reminds me of the OJ Trial, everyone but OJ ended up on trial in the end.

I'd sure like to hear from the driver as to why his car was stopped on the track like that. If I have car problems, whether it be on the street, or the track, the first thing I'd be doing is pulling over to the curb out of harms way (for everyone's safety).

Perhaps there were some extenuating circumstances for the driver, if so I'm all ears.

slucas
12-06-2015, 11:11 PM
There is an often heard story that if you stop on track they'll tow you in. If you pull off the track you'll be left there. Maybe the Mazda driver was thinkin' that.

terrydale
12-07-2015, 12:04 AM
There is an often heard story that if you stop on track they'll tow you in. If you pull off the track you'll be left there. Maybe the Mazda driver was thinkin' that.

Well......he proved that to be a true story. He definitely did get towed in..............:)

dubya_rx
12-07-2015, 12:35 AM
Not a road racer but...

At the 5 second mark I think that is the miata just disappearing around the right hander. At the 12 second mark, you can see the miata cresting the top of the hill, so I think it just got there. It wasn't stationary for long. At the 16 second mark, you can see the miata on the left side of the track. The blind hill, plus the focus with the opaque rear windows (what the &%!$ is that about?) doesn't make visibility easy. Contact with the miata occurs right at 19 seconds.

So my opinion, yes it could have been avoided, but the lack of flagging and the heavy traffic probably made it unlikely.

observer
12-07-2015, 07:25 AM
Gravlguts,
not sure if the video was your car, or you know the driver, but it seems that it would have been hard to avoid. A stopped car on track, over a blind crest, with no flags, and dense traffic blocking the view. It seems hard to fault the driver. Watching youtube, it seems there was only about 2.5 seconds to react from when the Miata become visible.

I had a similar big one after a blind crest at Calabogie (video previously posted). I've gone over my video frame by frame over and over again asking what could I have done differently. Based on the video of Ferkel, I don't see anything that could have been done differently by the driver that would have improved the situation (and some that would make it worse).

Second guessing positioning, it seems that the crest of the hill would be a better place to put the lone flagger. Perhaps during bigger events there is a mirror station there.

Is it just me, or is the right rear wheel on the Miata askew before the impact?

wings2k
12-07-2015, 11:00 AM
About the best the drive could have done is performed evasive action like the golf did, but most likely he would have ended up backwards in the wall as well over the grass.

Burnsey
12-07-2015, 01:06 PM
More details on the team, and their heroic efforts to revive the car, can be found here: http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/repair-of-the-year-lemons-team-obliterates-front-of-ca-1746535318

Definitely a candidate for the "code brown" moment of the year! :eek:

rburgess
12-07-2015, 05:17 PM
This reminds me of Memo Gidley's crash at the Daytona 24 hour race:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id4wAM2CJkQ

Steven Scala
12-07-2015, 05:26 PM
It seems hard to fault the driver. Watching youtube, it seems there was only about 2.5 seconds to react from when the Miata become visible.

2.5s seems like a long time to me.

I watched the video before reading these comments and as the Miata's ass approached, I just found myself wondering what was keeping our camera car from moving to driver's right, and also wondering why - assuming that driver's right wasn't an option, which it ultimately seemed to have been - our driver didn't take to the grass like the other guy ahead.

Granted, I know I've been dead lucky (touch wood) in these 'scramble' situations before, but this looks to me like a case of target fixation.

shamrock
12-08-2015, 10:19 AM
Most of this is armchair quarterbacking. There's only two ways this could have been avoided. One is if the Miata driver had done what he was supposed to do and had gotten off the track, and/or two, if a full course yellow had been displayed which it wasn't.

Even that's armchairing it from me. I've been racing for a long time and I probably would have hit the guy too. The Porsches brakes were locked right up when he did. I won't get going on marshaling and marshaling requirements in these lemons and even chumpcar races ( of which I've participated in).

DavidSim
12-08-2015, 12:58 PM
What I take from this incident is that it is important to have all your own safety gear installed, working properly, and in top shape (e.g. Hans device, seat, belts, fire system, cage), because you never know what could happen quickly and unexpectedly.

Thankfully everyone appears to have walked away to race another day.

gearhead
12-08-2015, 03:29 PM
http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/a27551/cheap-car-racing-safety/

wings2k
12-08-2015, 03:59 PM
It's easy to say from the video he had lots of time to react. Because when you are watching the video you are looking straight ahead.

I don't know, maybe I'm doing it wrong but I look around as well when I'm on track, maybe someone was closing behind him and he was looking in his mirrors? Just a glance into the mirror as he crested the hill, then a glance back forward and OH CRAP there's a car there....

Sometimes it's not simple, but maybe he just was slow to react. We'll probably never know.

Steven Scala
12-08-2015, 04:32 PM
Well yeah, looking all around involves spotting that one guy going off wildly into the grass on driver's left, which should be a clue that something's up...

But yeah, good point: there's no way to tell what had this guy's attention - he coulda been fixated on his mirrors for an inordinate amount of time for some odd reason.

This reminds me of Memo Gidley's crash at the Daytona 24 hour race:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id4wAM2CJkQ

Notably, Malucelli was suspended at the very next round in Sebring for causing another similar wreck, having re-joined at low speed in front of traffic after a single-car off into the wall. Clearly must have had the Daytona memory knocked out of him.

terrydale
12-08-2015, 05:51 PM
Well yeah, looking all around involves spotting that one guy going off wildly into the grass on driver's left, which should be a clue that something's up...

But yeah, good point: there's no way to tell what had this guy's attention - he coulda been fixated on his mirrors for an inordinate amount of time for some odd reason.

Understanding that we are all armchair analysing here and just throwing in thoughts and possibilities...........I am going to say again that doing any review using one perspective only to arrive at a conclusion is very dangerous. Especially when it is based on one in-car cam. You cannot see what is happening beside, around or behind the car; you get a two dimensional view from a fixed camera; and more. I have been caught more than once interpreting an incident one way based on one in-car camera only to have someone show me a video, or get a first hand description of the incident from another driver or flagger that offers an completely different version that sometimes completely contradicts that first impression.

So, great discussion. However, at the end of the day, and based on this one piece of evidence, the Porsche Driver had insufficient warning to react appropriately. A very experienced, highly skilled and extremely talented driver (with two horseshoes placed where they don't normally belong) MAY have pulled off a save. That wasn't the case here and the result is what we see unfold on the clip.

Mike Canner
12-08-2015, 09:21 PM
. I won't get going on marshaling and marshaling requirements in these lemons and even chumpcar races ( of which I've participated in).

Problem :confused:

wparsons
12-08-2015, 10:32 PM
Understanding that we are all armchair analysing here and just throwing in thoughts and possibilities...........I am going to say again that doing any review using one perspective only to arrive at a conclusion is very dangerous. Especially when it is based on one in-car cam. You cannot see what is happening beside, around or behind the car; you get a two dimensional view from a fixed camera; and more. I have been caught more than once interpreting an incident one way based on one in-car camera only to have someone show me a video, or get a first hand description of the incident from another driver or flagger that offers an completely different version that sometimes completely contradicts that first impression.

So, great discussion. However, at the end of the day, and based on this one piece of evidence, the Porsche Driver had insufficient warning to react appropriately. A very experienced, highly skilled and extremely talented driver (with two horseshoes placed where they don't normally belong) MAY have pulled off a save. That wasn't the case here and the result is what we see unfold on the clip.

If you watch the other angles of this crash (including onboard the miata), you can see that the miata was still rolling very slowly before being punted. Looks like they lost power and rolled up the hill.

IMO, they should have pulled into the grass before cresting the hill, but that's without knowing why they lost power or what else may have been happening.

nepeanhearing
12-10-2015, 06:15 PM
Nightmare situation for anybody, obviously. But in my view, with my fairly limited experience, I actually think it could have been a lot worse - hitting the car in front with the right side may have caused all kinds of mayhem on the grass, and going the other way could be very painful too, even if he missed the cars on the right. I hope the guys were OK.

LVPBMW
12-18-2015, 10:24 PM
Once you see the onboard form the Miata, you have to wonder why he stayed on the track so long. Pulling off to the left would have definitely led to another outcome. But as one poster said about the rules of staying on the track to get towed in, if that is the case, the accident started a long while before the two cars met on that crest.

If you watch the other angles of this crash (including onboard the miata), you can see that the miata was still rolling very slowly before being punted. Looks like they lost power and rolled up the hill.

IMO, they should have pulled into the grass before cresting the hill, but that's without knowing why they lost power or what else may have been happening.

DavidSim
12-18-2015, 11:31 PM
>>But as one poster said about the rules of staying on the track to get towed in, if that is the case, the accident started a long while before the two cars met on that crest<<

As a competitor I would expect a fellow racer to pull off the track and not deliberately roll to a stop on track in anticipation of being towed. I personally believe that deliberately stopping on the track as such should be seriously reprimanded.

If someone disagrees with the above then show them the video.

How's that ???

racecartech
01-01-2016, 04:16 PM
This type of crash gives fuel for the reasons to have race schools and not just a bought licence.

Anyone can race in many other series, without experience or requirement of training.

Many racers would have avoided that accident, which is what the original question was.

assessing blame is a different topic as Terry has indicated and would require more than this video. I believe the scope would also be split among several including the series.

Shark
01-04-2016, 10:32 PM
Agreed.

Just something to think about...
I spoke with someone working the...... ( in this particular case ) the Chumpcar event at CTMP in the fall. I was told that the towing service had picked up 15 cars so far that day. I think it was only 2pm at that time.
I don't think I would be taking my expensive car to events such as this, and with drivers who some are skilled of course, but a lot are not.

I prefer to run with drivers who have been tested and who are licensed properly and whose cars have been properly teched by a properly trained official. I want to make sure that the driver beside me has been checked out by his doctor just to make sure that he has some peripheral vision and doesn't need glasses to see far away things like flags.

My personal feeling is that we should certainly try to help people come together to get more racers out but not at the expense of safety, and certainly... credibility.

I think we have all met people who have said... " Oh, you race, cool, so do I. I say... oh ya, where do you race ? The guy says Oh I race up at the industrial park in Woodbridge. " Then he says... where do you race, and of course I say... AT THE TRACK... and with a license. "

I also think that having a proper license means something. It means, that you have been trained, tested and have achieved something. I guess that's why we grade people in school, or... you are tested to become a Police Officer.
I don't think any sane person would accept that they would just hand you a gun when you join the Police Force. Of course not... They train you, they test you, they pass you, then you get your weapon.
A race car is and can also be a weapon. I don't want to drive beside someone in a corner at 100 mph unless the guy has some training.

This is my story and I'm sticking to it.... I certainly don't want to offend anyone.

Steven Scala
01-05-2016, 10:54 AM
...I don't think I would be taking my expensive car to events such as this...

That's kind of the idea.

Stay safe, everyone!

Pat Dowling
01-05-2016, 11:01 AM
Agreed.

Just something to think about...
I spoke with someone working the...... ( in this particular case ) the Chumpcar event at CTMP in the fall. I was told that the towing service had picked up 15 cars so far that day. I think it was only 2pm at that time.
I don't think I would be taking my expensive car to events such as this, and with drivers who some are skilled of course, but a lot are not.



What are your thoughts on individuals who try to run races without proper rescue personnel/equipment (in case of extraction/big fire), Regional EMS (in case of priority transport to ER) and minimal corner workers... never mind no tow on site???

Shark
01-05-2016, 11:44 AM
What do I think... Pat ?

I think its nuts.

I did one a while ago at TMP. That was the first and the last for me. I realized after I went sliding off the end of the track in the grass, that there were no tow trucks in site, a small handful of " marshals " ( trained ???
who knows ), didn't see any fire bottles, ambulance, etc.
I thought, boy if I had flipped upside down and God forbid, caught fire... I don't even want to think about it. Maybe people running around looking for a pair of vice grips and a water bottle.

Again ... my opinion...

Some of the so-called cheaper alternatives more than likely don't have a lot of things in place. Things that competitors won't find out about until it's too late.

Clubs like Barc, Bemc, BMW, etc... are all " Not for Profit " Corporations that are registered with the Federal Government. As such these clubs have guidlines that must be follwed by law. Board of Directors, etc. Just like CASC.

The " For Profit " here today, gone tomorrow, outfits seem ok on the surface, but wait till something happens and the lawyers get a hold of it.

To each his own I guess, but I for one will stick with well organized clubs who use trained professionals, like Pat, with trained ambulance paramedics,
and Stewards who some of which work Indycar and F1 and Nascar events.

You all have heard the old saying... " you get what you pay for "

DavidSim
01-05-2016, 03:04 PM
>>Clubs like Barc, Bemc, BMW, etc... are all " Not for Profit " Corporations that are registered with the Federal Government. As such these clubs have guidlines that must be follwed by law. Board of Directors, etc. Just like CASC.<<

We are all so lucky to have these Clubs, with all the great people involved that give their time to make the events happen so well. I hope as many people as possible get their cars out in 2016 to support the Clubs, and their fellow racers.

Life is short, just do it !!!