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View Full Version : New Raw Time Challenge Classes added to Time-Attack series


Dave Barker
03-21-2016, 10:25 PM
Some folks have asked to make the rules a bit looser for the Mobil1 Ontario Time-Attack series to allow a wider variety of car preps to compete. Therefore in response, the series is adding 4 new classes this year for those of you more interested in going wild with your car prep for a time attack competition.

All of the safety requirements of OTA continue as before with the option of using a much looser classification system if that suits you.

The basic premise is that there will be 4 new classes basically based on wgt/hp as the car comes from the OE manufacturer. All suspension mods are allowed, any body lightening is allowed and engine mods are allowed with a few restrictions.

The top class is known as Raw Time Challenge (RTC) Unlimited and requires the use roll over protection and fire suits unless the car comes OEM with fewer than 7 lb/hp. Any car using race slicks will also require roll over protection , fire suits etc.

Please note that scoring for RTC classes is quite different and will not use the iPAX system used to score normal OTA events. Fastest time in class wins. Also note that these classes are in addition to the regular OTA classes.

There will be no need to submit a PIP schedule for approval to compete in the RTC classes.

Here is the basic bulletin for the addition of Raw Time Challenge

Base Classes:

RTC3: Power to weight ratio of greater than 15 lbs/hp.

RTC2: Power to weight ratio of greater than 11 to 15 lbs/hp.

RTC1: Power to weight ratio of greater than 7 to 11 lbs/hp.

RTC Unlimited: Power to weight ratio of under 7 lbs/hp.

*all base classes use the published OEM weight and crank hp unless the engine has been swapped (see below)

Modifications:

Engine swap: Power to weight ratio to be re-calculated based on manufacturer published OEM weight of the vehicle and manufacturer published OEM hp of the engine being swapped in.

Aftermarket turbo or super charger added: moves you up one class.

Other engine modifications (cams, intake, header, exhaust, etc), aero, suspension and brake upgrades do not affect classing

Tires:

140 UTQG or higher: classing unaffected.
60-139 UTQG: move up one class.
59 UTQG or less (or non DOT tires): move up two classes.

*non DOT or slicks require a roll over protection, fire suit, etc. All cars that are stock under 7 lb/hp but not using slicks do not require roll over protection or fire suits.



Scoring:
100 points for first in class
70 points for second in class
50 points for third in class
30 points for fourth in class
20 points for fifth in class
10 points for sixth in class

The organizers see this as a way to get folks who might be intimidated by our classification system to join in and compete. Does it work for you?

1qwkmini
03-22-2016, 07:29 AM
Let me see if I have this correct. My Mini Cooper would start RTC3 and I would be free to do whatever mods to the car??? Only slicks would require me to have rollover protection?

Like the idea, but not to sure about where rollover protection should be required??? I have a full cage and wouldn't consider running it at full speed (especially at CTMP) in it's current state without ROP regardless of slicks or UTQG of tires. Also some of the wild builds for the " other series " could run without ROP?

Just saying!!!!

kmorris
03-22-2016, 10:13 AM
Just a question about the scoring:

Do points in these classes count toward the series championship as they do in other classes or are they maintained separately?

Dave Barker
03-22-2016, 09:24 PM
Just a question about the scoring:

Do points in these classes count toward the series championship as they do in other classes or are they maintained separately?


They will be maintained separately as they aren't really comparable.

BTW, my apologies Kevin, but RTC Unlimited class is basically equivalent to our Mod 1 class and Open Mod cars are not allowed

kmorris
03-23-2016, 02:10 PM
I wasn't really asking for myself; just wondering what potential runners in these classes will expect in terms of their competitive status - being involved and running in a class kind of implies being "part of the championship".

Yellow Viggen
03-23-2016, 05:33 PM
Please clarify whether in the new classes we take Hp at the wheels and weight including the driver?
Thanks
Martin W

wparsons
03-23-2016, 05:43 PM
There is an asterisked point, but it might have been lost in the middle of the original post:

*all base classes use the published OEM weight and crank hp unless the engine has been swapped (see below)

2TH PWR
03-23-2016, 06:02 PM
That is pretty cool.

So can I compete in BOTH SGT2 and RTC2?

Dave Barker
03-23-2016, 07:13 PM
Please clarify whether in the new classes we take Hp at the wheels and weight including the driver?
Thanks
Martin W

Martin, RTC classing is pretty loose and is designed to be that way. The wgt/hp calculation is based on OEM crank HP and OEM weight

That is pretty cool.

So can I compete in BOTH SGT2 and RTC2?

Sure, but remember that to run in SGT2 (or whichever of the regular OTA classes your pick) you will need a PIP schedule submission. No PIP schedule needed for RTC although you will be expected to defend your basic wgt/hp calculation to your class competitors if asked and might want to look at what your car is rated at in the CCDB.

Dave Barker
03-23-2016, 07:22 PM
I wasn't really asking for myself; just wondering what potential runners in these classes will expect in terms of their competitive status - being involved and running in a class kind of implies being "part of the championship".

OTA uses a handicap system known as PAX and this year we hope to use an individual rather than class based system or iPAX to compare drivers of very different vehicles at very different levels of car prep.

RTC is strictly time based and no doubt good car prep will be essential to winning any RTC class as well as good driving. It is a different type of competition. We hope to be able to appeal to folks who like either type of competition and as you know, we offer the best tracks and schedule in the country.

GT42RR
03-23-2016, 10:18 PM
As some of you may know Im not shy and I don't mind sharing my point of view.

IM NOT SOLD!!

If OTA wants competitors from other series they need to stop trying to re write the rule book and copy and paste instead. Many of the popular time attack series in North America operate on incredibly similar rules. I understand OTA doesn't want to add 9 classes to the series so Ill make it easy.

ONLY 3 classes!!

1.Enthusiast
2.Club Sport
3.Unlimited

Here is how simple it is

Enthusiast class requires that your car is registered for the road and meet the following tire requirements.
Cars must use DOT-approved treaded tires with a minimum UTQG-rating of 180 or higher
Max width
FWD 225
AWD 245
RWD 275

Club Sport is for cars that are used on the street but are primarily prepared for the track
Cars must use DOT-approved treaded tires with a minimum UTQG-rating of 80 or higher.
Max width
FWD 255
AWD 275
RWD 295

Unlimited
Exactly that! Bring it run it slicks as big as you want go for gold!!

No confusion on HP vs. weight no PIP's to confuse the noobs!! Its easy if you have 180+ you go in Enthusiast 100-170 you are in club sport want to run slicks join unlimited. The tire size limitations per drivetrain keeps things on a level playing field and you can visibly monitor it with out confusion.
Make it easy for people to cross over between different series and they will.

Dave Barker
03-23-2016, 10:41 PM
We were well aware of the Global Time Attack rules and wanted something even simpler.

Also didn't think the average Miata owner wants to run in the same class as a C5 Corvette, at least not without a LS motor in it. How about a non turbo Impreza against an aftermarket boosted STI? Our RTC rules are designed to give at least some reasonable competition, not discourage guys who don't have the "right" car.

Not a lot of tires in the 100-180 range but tons at 200.

As for going wild, we already have the Mod 1 class.

As for crossing series, the other guys have 2 events in direct conflict with ours. They are at TMP when we are at Mosport International and they are at Grand Bend when we are at Shannonville Pro. Which tracks would you rather run?

The 2 different time attack series are very different and appeal to different groups. No one group can be everything to everyone. Our main purpose of adding RTC classes was not to "steal" people from another series but to ease the entry of new folks to race track competition.

GT42RR
03-23-2016, 11:30 PM
See Dave that is where you missed the point! You already have the PAX system for the Miata guys without LS swaps and the stock NA Impreza guys. OTA has the "right" class for just about every car. If you are really looking to grow and find new competitors you may just have to conform with the Global time attack format.

Tires in the 80-170 as follows FYI this is just off the top of my head Im sure there are more.
Toyo R888
Hankook Ventus TD
Achilles ATR-K
Maxis VICTRA RC-1
Federal 595RS-R
Nankang NS2R

Good news about Mod1!! But I thought these were separate classes not to disrupt the OTA PIP program.

Im not sure if you aware but now there is more than one other series in Ontario. CSCS is the one you are thinking about. The new series is being super aggressive with marketing and vendors to bring more people through the gate. You should have a look and see what they have to offer.

We understand that the tracks OTA is at are better tracks for competition but let me remind you that TMP is the benchmark in Ontario for time attack. I know its a boring simple layout but its the most accessible to the general public and has become the benchmark.

Yes no three series will be the same nor will you be able to keep everyone happy. I don't know why you feel like you are going to "steal" people from another series. You are just giving people that love to race more weekends available to have FUN!! If the rules are similar it makes the change over EASY!

If you really want to bring new people to the track the typical OTA PIP schedule works best as you are classed correctly for the more basic moded cars. The more LOOSE rules seem to fit better to the more radical builds and that is why the North American Time Attack rules would be better suited.

Regards
Just a guy looking to a alternative to the "other series"

1qwkmini
03-24-2016, 09:41 AM
I really like the new classes and hope to have the Mini ready for the early events.
I can play with the car all I like, even between events and I don't have to be concerned with PIPS/ iPAX etc. No need to optimize the car for class. Just show up and run...see what happens. Unlike CSCS, I won't be in with some 600hp Civic that happens to have a full interior or other such open class rules. As long as I work with what the car was delivered with, I can likely field a competitive car.

Just my 2 cents.

chmod755
03-24-2016, 12:06 PM
As a new competitor (2015 was the first time I've EVER competed), I like the idea that I can get my feet wet but I feel like I'm at a disadvantage because the car I'm starting with is a modded Subaru Impreza STI.

I started as just a regular car guy who bought a Subaru and got the modding bug. I upgraded my turbo, a couple of suspension parts, and a tune. The idea was to drive on a race track but as I did this more often, I decided it would be great to give time attack a try.

But since I'm starting with this car, and this is all I have (other than my wife's car which I won't use!), I've had to start in SGT2 last year. This year, I'm in SGT2 again and I'll have to compete against least season's champ! If I were to enter the RTC classes, I'll have to start in RTC Unlimited which I'm definitely not optimized for!

I know the idea of placing cars in classes is to somewhat put the cars on a similar footing but I feel like lower powered cars have more of an advantage in this series for beginners.

Maybe I should have gotten a Miata!

Dave Barker
03-24-2016, 12:56 PM
Im not sure if you aware but now there is more than one other series in Ontario. CSCS is the one you are thinking about. The new series is being super aggressive with marketing and vendors to bring more people through the gate. You should have a look and see what they have to offer.


Yes no three series will be the same nor will you be able to keep everyone happy. I don't know why you feel like you are going to "steal" people from another series. You are just giving people that love to race more weekends available to have FUN!! If the rules are similar it makes the change over EASY!



I specifically mentioned that we are NOT trying to steal competitors from other series. CSCS runs a very different rule set than we do which appeals to some and not to others. I was not aware of a third time attack series so can't comment on their rules etc.

The main purpose of the RTC rules is NOT to mimic other series but to make it easier for people to get involved who may not have been involved before. As you are aware, the OTA rule book is moderately extensive and the competitors are VERY competitive (look at the discussions that go on about making a 1-2 PIP change to the rules which works out to 0.2 to 0.4 seconds expected change per lap).

What we have found is that many folks don't even know they can drive their car on a race track and a number are afraid of wrecking their car. Although OTA provides excellent instruction, both in the schools and at the events, some find the competitive nature of OTA too much.

There have been a few "barriers to entry" to quote Joe T, in OTA which include the rule book with its car classification and PIP schedule, the cost of the events and the cost of the class C licence. The cost of events is actually less this year than last year (you would have great difficulty matching the Open house price for lapping at MIR on a weekend day) and the licencing cost is being picked up by OTA and the parent organization, CASC. Running in RTC means no PIP schedule required either. (Not even any limits on tire size like Global Time attack has).

The OTA PIP schedule assumes that any modification done to a car is effective to the best of its ability. As we all know, not all mods are equal and my revalved non adjustable Bilstein shocks that I pay 2 PIPs for are not going to perform like 3 way adjustable JRZ shocks or Penskes which cost way more money but the same 2 PIPs. RTC classes give drivers the chance to run with whatever mods they want without having to worry that they didn't "optimise" their choice of modification.

So the real purpose of RTC classes is to make it easier for people to learn to drive fast in a safe environment with some low key competition. .It is not to try and mimic the rule sets of other series. It is supposed to be fun and not too many of our competitors are looking for James Hinchcliff's contract anyway. For the real keeners with highly developed fast cars we still have Mod 1 or RTC Unlimited, take your choice.

Another small point is that OTA is not for profit (just ask the treasurer) and is run by volunteers. We just like to keep enough money in the till to pay for track rentals and hopefully decrease the cost of entry for everyone.

scorcherjf
03-24-2016, 02:14 PM
Does one have to opt-in to be scored in this class or can one choose not to participate if one is already classed with a PIP schedule?

Time Attack Director
03-24-2016, 02:40 PM
Just wanted to let everyone know what the concept behind the Raw Time Challenge is.

For years competitors have not had the option of running without a PIP schedule, so the committee has decided to make it easier for those people who do not want their cars classified into the many categories we established.

So now you have a choice, run Ontario Time Attack OR run the sub-series known as Raw Time Challenge. While I will leave it to the RTC committee headed up by Dave B. to decide the race categories for RTC, please recognize we are doing our best to make this work.

We also think this is a good way to attract people who are not familiar with the index (or PIP) schedule to get closer with OTA. We are working on having RTC participants get a score so they can be attracted to the Time Attack system if they choose to do so.

Please help us by giving some positive comments and suggestions on how to make RTC grow.

For those participating in the Time Attack Events, you're already sold on the merits of keeping with our indexing system so be assured that will still be in play for those who compete.

BOTTOM LINE: More ways to have FUN at the track!

wparsons
03-24-2016, 03:48 PM
As a new competitor (2015 was the first time I've EVER competed), I like the idea that I can get my feet wet but I feel like I'm at a disadvantage because the car I'm starting with is a modded Subaru Impreza STI.

I started as just a regular car guy who bought a Subaru and got the modding bug. I upgraded my turbo, a couple of suspension parts, and a tune. The idea was to drive on a race track but as I did this more often, I decided it would be great to give time attack a try.

But since I'm starting with this car, and this is all I have (other than my wife's car which I won't use!), I've had to start in SGT2 last year. This year, I'm in SGT2 again and I'll have to compete against least season's champ! If I were to enter the RTC classes, I'll have to start in RTC Unlimited which I'm definitely not optimized for!

I know the idea of placing cars in classes is to somewhat put the cars on a similar footing but I feel like lower powered cars have more of an advantage in this series for beginners.

Maybe I should have gotten a Miata!

Why would you be in RTC unlimited? Classes are by OEM hp/weight, not your current power level/weight. Add a turbo/supercharger to an NA car, you're moved up one class.

The idea behind these classes were for people just like you Moses... people that started modding without knowing classing rules and just want to have fun at the track.

chmod755
03-24-2016, 04:42 PM
OEM weight: 3344 lbs
OEM power: 293

11.4 lb/hp

So if the car were stock, then would it be in RTC 1 (or 2)?

Since my turbo isn't stock, wouldn't that be considered an upgrade and place me in the next highest class: RTC Unlimited (or RTC 1)?

1qwkmini
03-24-2016, 04:52 PM
My understanding is that you can do what you like with engine/turbo/supercharger as long as the car came equiped with one from factory. The only thing that will move you up a class is tire choice...if you run UTQG of 140 or higher you will still be in RTC 2 (assuming the previous calculation of 11.4 is correct) regardless of the changes you make to the engine/turbo or suspension.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...PLEASE before I finish the car!!!!

GT42RR
03-24-2016, 05:25 PM
Please see above post, it explains the classing confusion.

When Im home from work Ill explain my ideas for the RTC classing.

scorcherjf
03-24-2016, 05:36 PM
OEM weight: 3344 lbs
OEM power: 293

11.4 lb/hp

So if the car were stock, then would it be in RTC 1 (or 2)?

Since my turbo isn't stock, wouldn't that be considered an upgrade and place me in the next highest class: RTC Unlimited (or RTC 1)?
From what the 1st post says I think you would be RTC2 since 11.4 is within the 11 to 15 lbs/hp range.
"RTC2: Power to weight ratio of greater than 11 to 15 lbs/hp."

I'm assuming your car came turbocharged from the factory and you changed the turbo? I don't think that would affect your RTC classing since the rules (as I read them) state adding FI onto a car that was NA moves you up one RTC class, not simply modifying an already FI'd car.

Dave Barker
03-24-2016, 06:54 PM
Guys, the rules are pretty clear. Adding an aftermarket forced induction system whether it is to an NA or forced induction car moves you up a class.

OTOH, modifying an OEM turbo or supercharger is totally legit. If you want to raise boost pressure or install a smaller supercharger pulley, be my guest. If you want to add a honkin" big after market turbo, that will move you up a class.

Pretty simple isn't it?

1qwkmini
03-24-2016, 06:59 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Dave.

I think it's the "adding" that was confusing the situation.

What are the restrictions on engine mods..."engine mods are allowed with a few restrictions."

GT42RR
03-24-2016, 09:44 PM
Hey Guys,
After having a very lengthy conversation with my SPDA Time Attack ambassador Im just going to give you the strait goods without the sugar coating.

As you must know CSCS has introduced a new tire rule that has some of the field looking for a new place to race. OTA is having a massive struggle getting enough entry to make the series viable. Introducing a few new classes to mimic ones of CSCS, GTA, Redline and others would make OTA a EASY step for those who don't want to buy in to the Pirelli program.

This could be a very EASY step to have entry jump up 20-25 cars without re writing the typical OTA pip program. Just imagine 60+ cars at MIR instead of 34 (2015). I mean if you can't get 60 people out to MIR GP track at $300 for the day, something is a miss! Adding these cars could be the difference in this make or break year for OTA.

Bringing new people will bring new media outlets and possible new sponsorship to the series. The current sponsors have noticed they are keeping the same 30-40 guys racing, and the lack of media coverage has them thinking. Lets add a bunch of new guys with the same passion of motorsports. This is not a us vs. them, this is we want somewhere to run our cars and have some fun!!

I will let you know we have 3 very competitive customer cars looking for a series to race in this year. For me Im ok with just going to lapping days with my car, I have nothing to prove I just want to have fun.

Seems like a no brainer to me! Nothing really to lose just a good opportunity to capitalize on the situation and keep OTA chugging along.

Mhussain
03-24-2016, 10:05 PM
My 2 cents worth that I shared with JP.
I am overly excited about the RTC! This makes a great addition to OTA and gives the true speed enthusiast an opportunity to compete outright yet in the OTA safety nets.
I will definitely register for this especially now that there no Championship Shootout any longer! I can foresee OTA changing to this format in a year or two as it will attract a huge following.
The engine swap rules, the freedom of choosing engine, suspension and body mods, and the tire rules are perfectly simple.
Congratulations to you and the entire committee for bringing this along! It will resurrect OTA back into the glory days and maybe we will have all the ex-HADA clan including DaveP, Hanif P, Taylor B, and all the others back for this exciting event and show us what they have!!
Mohamed H:p

Time Attack Director
03-25-2016, 09:38 AM
Thanks MO!

Does this mean you're going to steal Dave B.'s corvette engine and put it in the lil civic?

I think our 2016 theme should be ..

To PIP or not to PIP, Time Attack VS. RTC, YOUR CHOICE!

So please spread the word to new competitors you know and help us make the series grow!

Sorry for the interruption, please add more comments about RTC!

Dave Barker
03-25-2016, 12:55 PM
OTA has always had issues with promotion as our budget is basically non existent. Track rental fees have increased and we want to continue to provide the high quality product that we do and that leaves diddly squat for promotion.That is why we count on a lot of you and word of mouth. IMO, we clearly have the best time attack series in the country on the best tracks with the best organization but not enough people know about us.The other series promote like crazy, enough to be able to charge a $20 gate fee to spectators AND competitors. They are quite clearly for profit while we are not. Some good things about that and some bad things.

OTOH, to say we are struggling would not be accurate. The low entry event that GT42RR mentions was not MIR but Calabogie (that for numerous reasons that I would not discuss here). In actual fact most of the competition events last year made money and entries were adequate. Obviously we would like to increase our numbers but the projected budget for this year already shows a profit due to numerous other changes we have made to the series with NO increase in entry AND a decrease in entry fees!! GT42RR, your SPDA ambassador is not accurate to imply we are on the ropes.

We would be happy to have competitors from other series come to ours (I would have thought RTC Unlimited or even RTC1 classes would work for that) but the real growth needs to come from beginners not seasoned competitors. That is why OTA has always offered schools and instruction.

Every year in every series there are some competitors that don't return for numerous reasons. Seasoned competitors already know about OTA vs CSCS and the pros and cons of each series whereas most newbies do not. This is where the real growth can come from.

Obviously those of us with less modified cars will continue to enjoy the PAX scoring system (and even more so this year with iPAX). This year by adding RTC classes, people can go pretty wild with their mods without the fear that they will be forced to run against an OEM supercar or similar. And those who have super prepped cars can run in RTC Unlimited or Mod 1 on fast race tracks like SMP Pro or MIR.

Frankly, I think the addition of RTC classes with the rules as written is a real addition to our series and will widen the appeal both for new folks and those with highly prepped cars.

One thing I should mention here is that to maintain the quality of the OTA experience, we will be limiting the numbers of entrants to each event (including the lapping at MIR). Although the money for the series would be great if we had 100 entrants for each, the experience for those 100 would definitely not be as good as a more routine OTA event (ask others about Calabogie lapping). Therefore, given the good prices at the Open House, I suggest folks make their best effort to be at JRP on Sat April 2 for the opening sign up for OTA, including PAX and RTC classes.

10gt61
03-25-2016, 01:42 PM
GT42RR, your SPDA ambassador is not accurate to imply we are on the ropes.



Exactly. "Rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - Mark Twain.

OTA is in good shape. Early panicking that occurred amongst some people last year turned out to be unwarranted. We ended the season much like we did many seasons before. And many have worked very hard to improve the series even further going forward. It is much appreciated by many.

wolfpack
03-25-2016, 06:01 PM
I will be joining OTA this year. I like the new RTC class to get involved. Hoping to run all the races all depending my work schedule. I have upgraded a lot of components suspension and aero along with adding a S/C but have stock internals and I run on slicks. Looking forward to joining and being apart of the series

Dave Barker
03-25-2016, 06:21 PM
Does one have to opt-in to be scored in this class or can one choose not to participate if one is already classed with a PIP schedule?

James, if you have a PIP schedule submitted and approved, I would think you would want to be scored in the OTA system. You will be able to compare your times easily to the RTC class you would have been in as these will be scored on raw time only. I would see all the RTC classes as being self declared. Don't think we will see any Corvettes or 911s trying to sneak in to RTC 3 ;)

As you know, we don't charge a gate fee and don't have enough money for any serious prizes so really the purpose of all this is fun, thrills (and bragging rights)

GT42RR
03-25-2016, 11:13 PM
Dave I just want to be clear with you and the others that are discussing my posts off of this forum, I JUST WANT TO HELP! Im tying to help make OTA a even better series with more competitors, spectators and sponsors. It is clear that OTA has the best tracks locked down for Ontario and the volunteers are amazing. But just imagine 40 more people running at OTA that will help both with revenue and media exposure. I know OTA is not for profit but with those extra racers entry fees we could have a few bucks to do some posters for the following year. Or even some mid winter fun at a go cart track to keep everyone track fresh. Even use some of the money to cover licences for newbies to ease their way in to OTA.

You were right about MIR last year it was 41 competitors, lets make it 60!!!

If you are interested in launching a FREE marketing program contact me privately and I can help get the ball rolling. You don't need a single penny to get the word out!!

Time Attack Director
03-26-2016, 09:57 AM
WONDERFUL! this is what grassroots motorsports is all about, people taking the initiative to help! We all have to do our part to make this a successful series.

Thank you for stepping up!

You have a PM! I am available all weekend if you want to chat.

Dave Barker
03-26-2016, 11:12 AM
Dave I just want to be clear with you and the others that are discussing my posts off of this forum, I JUST WANT TO HELP! Im tying to help make OTA a even better series with more competitors, spectators and sponsors. It is clear that OTA has the best tracks locked down for Ontario and the volunteers are amazing. But just imagine 40 more people running at OTA that will help both with revenue and media exposure. I know OTA is not for profit but with those extra racers entry fees we could have a few bucks to do some posters for the following year. Or even some mid winter fun at a go cart track to keep everyone track fresh. Even use some of the money to cover licences for newbies to ease their way in to OTA.

You were right about MIR last year it was 41 competitors, lets make it 60!!!

If you are interested in launching a FREE marketing program contact me privately and I can help get the ball rolling. You don't need a single penny to get the word out!!

We would be happy with any help you can offer. PM sent.

Slowpoke
03-26-2016, 11:25 AM
GT42RR, your SPDA ambassador is not accurate to imply we are on the ropes.

OTA is in good shape. Early panicking that occurred amongst some people last year turned out to be unwarranted.

I understand that you want to make things seem rosey in public posts but I can't abide by singling out an individual and attempting to discredit them when they have been nothing but honest. Dov attended our AGM where Will spoke and came to his own conclusions. Both OTA's and CASC-OR's financials are available to our members and we have let the facts speak for themselves. The money SPDA has invested in OTA is club member money, and they are entitled to know how it is doing. I think too many people forget whose wallet they're dipping into when the series loses money.

Some of the organizing committee have no legal responsibility to be honest, but others are on the club Executive and thus are officers of a non-profit corporation. Dave, Kelly, Gerry, I realize that you hold (or have held) board positions, but are not officers of your clubs. For officers, it is our legal duty to disclose financials to interested members at our AGM, and we also provide that information in our Members Only forum. I'd say that a good portion of our members just want to go to events and would rather elect us to worry about such things for them. That's fine. For those members that want to know, we disclose the real numbers.

Dave Barker
03-26-2016, 11:51 AM
2015 was a losing year for OTA, not as drastic as predicted, but still a losing year none the less. Given that we run on a shoe string budget, every year is a risk.

OTOH, there were a lot of lessons learned from the 2015 mistakes meaning that the series planning for 2016 is indeed much "rosier".

Slowpoke
03-26-2016, 01:32 PM
That doesn't sound like an apology, Dave.

Dave Barker
03-26-2016, 03:00 PM
That doesn't sound like an apology, Dave.

Here we go. Will (didn't know you were the SPDA "ambassador" who had to communicate the bad position that OTA was in at the end of last year), please accept my most public and sincere apologies for any reference against your character or motivation. I know you were only trying to keep people informed.

Now Stephen, lets get back to the subject of this post.

GT42RR doesn't like the proposed rules for RTC and some of you do. Certainly would like to hear from more of you. Open House is just a week away.

GT42RR
03-26-2016, 07:52 PM
Hey CASC this is what i have just sent off to the OTA team.

Edited until we iron out the details.

1qwkmini
03-26-2016, 08:36 PM
NO THANKS!!! If those are the rules you will lose one new competitor!!!
As soon as you allow engine swaps/turbos etc you get into very high HP cars, a lot of dollars and unreliable engines. At least in the proposed rules you work with powertrain given and you can simply work on suspension/lightening and aero if you like.

If I wanted those rules I would go to CSCS.

Really like the simple nature of the proposed RTC classes.

GT42RR
03-26-2016, 10:18 PM
NO THANKS!!! If those are the rules you will lose one new competitor!!!
As soon as you allow engine swaps/turbos etc you get into very high HP cars, a lot of dollars and unreliable engines. At least in the proposed rules you work with powertrain given and you can simply work on suspension/lightening and aero if you like.

If I wanted those rules I would go to CSCS.

Really like the simple nature of the proposed RTC classes.

The great news is we are working to make OTA the most diverse time attack series in Canada. If you want a fair power to weight ratio battle you can register in the traditional PAX system. If you want to go all out with HP you have the RTC system. Either way OTA will have a system to best optimize your set up.

Having RTC gives competitors from Global Time Attack, CSCS, Racewars and Redline Time Attack the opportunity to run with OTA and vice versa.

The way I see it OTA will have a spot for everyone from newbie to pro driver :cool:

GT42RR
03-26-2016, 10:25 PM
Also 1qwkmini Im interested about your setup, what tires do you run?

1qwkmini
03-26-2016, 10:28 PM
I must have misunderstood....I thought that RTC was to attract the average guy who didn't want to deal with the complexity of the PIP system, but wanted to have a place to try his hand at time attack.

I wasn't under the impression that it was to attract the big budget people from World Time Attack etc etc

What difference does my tire choice make...I can run the tire of my choice...but I chose the tire and the class that I run...anywhere from RTC3 to unlimited.

GT42RR
03-26-2016, 10:49 PM
What difference does my tire choice make...I can run the tire of my choice...but I chose the tire and the class that I run...anywhere from RTC3 to unlimited.

I was just interested in your set up to see how the rules affect you. But if you don't feel like sharing that is cool.

The way the PAX system works it really rewards those drivers that minimize dollars spent on upgrades. Less dollars spent = grassroots.

If you want to shake the money tree on your car well PAX will really hurt you.

wparsons
03-27-2016, 09:54 AM
NO THANKS!!! If those are the rules you will lose one new competitor!!!
As soon as you allow engine swaps/turbos etc you get into very high HP cars, a lot of dollars and unreliable engines. At least in the proposed rules you work with powertrain given and you can simply work on suspension/lightening and aero if you like.

If I wanted those rules I would go to CSCS.

Really like the simple nature of the proposed RTC classes.

The original rules allowed swaps and turbo/supercharger kits as well... the original rules were actually more relaxed because it didn't require the engine to be available in the chassis. You could be up against an LS3 miata by the original rules, with the new proposal it would be something like a B16 swapped EG civic or ITR swapped Integra LS.

The only classes that would allow an engine not originally available in the chassis is the unlimited class, which was unlimited by the original proposal as well.

Grant Galloway
03-27-2016, 12:36 PM
I think the rules make sense, I know my car is optimized for GT2 this year; otherwise I would be running the lowest level of RTC with hankook RS3's
(Next year I may run RTC)

Last year my car competed in GT3 on non-optimized suspension, every time I went to the track (for a track day) I went faster. It had nothing to do with my car getting modded, it was all about the seat time I gained!

Corey drove my non-optimized car at TMP and destroyed the GT3 field, and went 1.9 seconds faster than me, at the same time I have gone faster than some of the guys in higher classes... (so what) The whole point of this series is to go out and have some fun!

For me I continued to spend money on my car over the winter, and will be running GT2 this year.. Everyone should be trying to go faster every season, I know for me I will not be satisfied running the same lap times every year. And I sure as heck don't want to stay in the same class every year so I can win a little trophy!

Who cares whether you run OTA, RTC or if we have competitors crossing over to run a different series... We should be welcoming anyone to our series and helping them understand their options. At least it's a step in the right direction.

Just shut up and drive and have some fun, meet new people; help them out and smile inside your helmet like we should be doing.

Looking forward to seeing everyone next Saturday at JRP!

(My cheque is already filled out)

Cheers
Grant

1qwkmini
03-27-2016, 02:50 PM
Let me make this clear...I LIKE THE NEW RTC AS PROPOSED!!!!

It's my choice to swap engines/supercharger etc and what RTC class I ultimately run in. But it still allows me to "run what you brung" and not worry about PIPS.
If the car is super fast in RTC3 then I can simply change tires and move to RTC2....I like the simplicity of it. I'm not looking to compete unfairly, I just want a class where the car has a chance of being in the hunt....not sure if that can happen if my car is in the same class as Mike's 350Z.

The other proposal means that my car with the interior stripped (I started building it as a lapping day car) would automatically start in something like superstreet or unlimited...against cars that HAVE engine swaps and 5-600HP.

I like my car the way it is...if I were starting the build again, I would build it with the rule book/PIP schedule in hand...much like Corey's old BMW.
RTC allows me to run in RTC3 or RTC2 (depending on tires) and it should be fairly competative....unlike the other proposal which would require me to start the build over or add 2-300HP (and we all know that is cheap!!!).

Basically my Mini is like Corey's old BMW with a more extensive cage, cheaper shocks and more engine than stock. How would Corey's car have done if it was classed with the same BMW with unlimited engine/HP simply because he had removed his interior?????

I REPEAT I LIKE THE NEW RULES AS WRITTEN!!!!

Dave Barker
03-27-2016, 07:17 PM
Folks, remember that the RTC rules as suggested allow engine swaps with no restrictions BUT you have to use the hp from the stock new engine to figure out your wgt/hp.

Means an LS1 motor in a Miata is not going to run in the same class as a Mazda motor in a Miata.

Factory Miatas generally work out to RTC 3 with wgt/hp of 15/1 or higher

Put a crappy LS1 motor in the car at stock 300 hp in a 2400 lb car and you are down to wgt/hp of 8/1 or RTC1 class before you improve the motor. Do some work and that LS1 can make a lot more power. OTOH lots of cars in RTC1 have higher wgt/hp than 8 to start with.

Lord_Sid
03-27-2016, 08:34 PM
These RTC rules/classes are interesting.

As someone that manly does open lapping and autoslalom, you have my attention. I will definitely keep my eye on it and possibly come out for an event or two.

The PIP system was a bit too much for me to jump into the OTA series. With my engine swap, I would need to submit a dyno results. Since the closes awd dyno is 3 hrs away, its something that is low on my priority since I'm still sorting out other aspects of the car.

With the OEM weight/power ratio on the OP, my subaru legacy with an ej207 running RE71R would fall under RTC2. Under Autoslalom classes, I'm thrown into Street Mod due to the engine swap. Either way my car is not competitive in any classes its usually put into.

I think the goal of RTC is to bring more competitors to the events, whether they are new to time attack or from another series.

xyz999
03-28-2016, 01:08 PM
Folks, remember that the RTC rules as suggested allow engine swaps with no restrictions BUT you have to use the hp from the stock new engine to figure out your wgt/hp.

Means an LS1 motor in a Miata is not going to run in the same class as a Mazda motor in a Miata.

Factory Miatas generally work out to RTC 3 with wgt/hp of 15/1 or higher

Put a crappy LS1 motor in the car at stock 300 hp in a 2400 lb car and you are down to wgt/hp of 8/1 or RTC1 class before you improve the motor. Do some work and that LS1 can make a lot more power. OTOH lots of cars in RTC1 have higher wgt/hp than 8 to start with.

Hey Dave, just a quick question, so does it mean my LS3 Miata automatically goes into the Unlimited category based on its power to weight ratio, despite having very good street manner? i.e. it still uses street rubber, non-optimized wheel and tire width, non-optimized damper / springs, etc.

wparsons
03-28-2016, 01:44 PM
Hey Dave, just a quick question, so does it mean my LS3 Miata automatically goes into the Unlimited category based on its power to weight ratio, despite having very good street manner? i.e. it still uses street rubber, non-optimized wheel and tire width, non-optimized damper / springs, etc.

If the power to weight ratio puts it there, yes. No different than a 100% stock car that has a very high power to weight ratio.

xyz999
03-28-2016, 04:24 PM
If the power to weight ratio puts it there, yes. No different than a 100% stock car that has a very high power to weight ratio.

OK I figured as much. Thanks for the note Will.

DavidSim
03-28-2016, 05:19 PM
>>GT42RR doesn't like the proposed rules for RTC and some of you do. Certainly would like to hear from more of you<<

I am new to OTA, I have never competed, I would like to compete though but have struggled to both understand the rules and determine if/where my car(s) would fit.

The new RTC classes are a positive step in my humble/uneducated opinion towards hopefully making things simpler and attracting more participants (although I don't yet understand why RTC Open is not truly "Unlimited" by not allowing full blown, tube chassis, race cars).

>>Open House is just a week away<<

I'm planning to drop by, looking forward to it.

1qwkmini
03-28-2016, 05:45 PM
That's what the OPEN MOD class is for...have at it with a full race car...He!! bring out a Radical ( ok maybe not ).

I think RTC is meant to be Street Car based.

3wheeler
03-28-2016, 06:06 PM
An exhibition class would be pretty cool!

Might draw out some interesting cars and add to the excitement. Might also help draw in spectators.

I am glad to see OTA thinking outside the box this year. I hope to attend an event or two! If Grant doesn't mind sharing again that is.. ;)

GT42RR
03-28-2016, 06:36 PM
>>GT42RR doesn't like the proposed rules for RTC and some of you do. Certainly would like to hear from more of you<<

I am new to OTA, I have never competed, I would like to compete though but have struggled to both understand the rules and determine if/where my car(s) would fit.

The new RTC classes are a positive step in my humble/uneducated opinion towards hopefully making things simpler and attracting more participants (although I don't yet understand why RTC Open is not truly "Unlimited" by not allowing full blown, tube chassis, race cars).

>>Open House is just a week away<<

I'm planning to drop by, looking forward to it.

Its not that I dislike the rules, its just a matter of OTA needing more competitors. The standard time attack reg set from UK AUS USA JAP and other countries would only elevate entry at OTA. Some people frown on these rules because they are associated with CSCS. Some people from CASC are not fans of CSCS so they try and stray away from that model as much as possible. The thing is those rules allow people to run in multiple series without making changes to their cars. Last year CSCS had a competition from PA come run, Mike from Innovative Tuning out of NY is the AWD lap record holder. Being diverse allows more people to compete and in the end makes the OTA budget work.
Adding these classes does not cost the series any extra budget but has the possibility of bringing more new people to OTA.
Also this is not a OTA vs. CSCS thing, I have run at CSCS in the past and I still plan to go there, but our summers are limited and if I could be at the track every weekend I would.

Grant Galloway
03-28-2016, 07:07 PM
An exhibition class would be pretty cool!

Might draw out some interesting cars and add to the excitement. Might also help draw in spectators.

I am glad to see OTA thinking outside the box this year. I hope to attend an event or two! If Grant doesn't mind sharing again that is.. ;)

As long as instruction and car setup is free, the car is yours anytime! I just can't have you showing me up too much...

endura
03-28-2016, 11:28 PM
Good direction for series. Simple entry, classing, I'll be coming out to some events.

So, I can run a "Rival" or "Rival S" and my classing won't be affected since they're both 200TW, right?

John P
03-29-2016, 12:55 AM
Rival and Rival S are street tires with UTQG of 200 so don't bump you a class in RTC or in regular OTA.

JohnP

Time Attack Director
04-01-2016, 10:40 AM
Thank you everyone for your contribution to this discussion.

Due to the limited amount of time to publish the rules, we had to make a decision. I thank the three member clubs of OTA for putting lots of effort in coming up with the Rules.

I understand that this might not suit everyone's needs BUT we still encourage you to get involved with the series.

As in all introductory products and ventures, improvement and adjustments will be needed. If you participate you can be part of this process,so please help us grow this event.

Sign up to RTC by going to http://casc.motorsportreg.com

Copies of the rules can be found here:

http://www.casc.on.ca/time-attack/raw-time-challenge-bulletin

WrenchTime
04-24-2016, 06:28 PM
Hello all, I've taken some time to scan and wanted to put in my 2 cents (since it doesn't appear anyone else has similar comments).

I'm not totally clear on why hp/lbs is used initially and then forgotten about after engine/boost/tire options are considered (since it would no longer be in any way related to the car).

Shouldn't it just be show up with a dyno plot, weigh the car at the track and get classed? If you have no mods, then take the factory hp number. If you have some mods, it might not matter since the class is 5 lbs increments. If you have a ton of mods, having a dyno plot is pretty reasonable. This would properly class competitors for perhaps the only reasonable and quantifiable metric. This appeals to me. If I know 15 lbs/hp is my limit, I can design to that. Once the powertrain is sorted, I can go about optimizing the rest of the car.

I understand the concept between creating these classes, but as some will start to "build-to-win" in these classes it seems easily exploitable doesn't it?

Dave Barker
04-24-2016, 09:47 PM
I'm not totally clear on why hp/lbs is used initially and then forgotten about after engine/boost/tire options are considered (since it would no longer be in any way related to the car).

Shouldn't it just be show up with a dyno plot, weigh the car at the track and get classed? If you have no mods, then take the factory hp number. If you have some mods, it might not matter since the class is 5 lbs increments. If you have a ton of mods, having a dyno plot is pretty reasonable.

I understand the concept between creating these classes, but as some will start to "build-to-win" in these classes it seems easily exploitable doesn't it?

Sounds like you are a fan of the general OTA classification system.It is not only acceptable but required to use dyno plots in the general OTA classes for cars with lots of engine mods as well as use car weights for cars with lots of lightening. OTOH RTC rules are designed for those folks who don't want to bother with PIP schedules, dynos, car weights etc and the RTC rules are designed to be about as simple as they can be.

RTC classes will not be scored by PAX rules and as such run in parallel to OTA classes, not against them.

madspeed
04-24-2016, 10:50 PM
fwiw from a newb .... I tried to get into OTA last year as I already have the C license from Ice racing, did all the PIP stuff, car classification etc. Then I got the email about submitting the dyno plot and lost interest at that point as it was more effort than I was willing to put in... probably how most newb's are going to feel. I appreciate having the new rules and hope to attend a few under the new rules.

WrenchTime
04-25-2016, 09:43 PM
Dave, agreed. I don't mind the PIP system (how I plan to race). It gives a set of rules I can work to. I won't have a lot of mods, so I won't need a dyno plot... yet.