PDA

View Full Version : Analysis of a on-track incident


alangbaker
01-17-2017, 03:51 PM
I could use some experienced opinions on this:

Ford vs. Ecoboost (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVThfXyexXw)

That video shows a first corner incident between a blue and black Formula For and a white and blue Formula Ford Ecoboost.

I don't want to bias anyone about it, so if you'd take a look and tell me what you think happened.

observer
01-17-2017, 07:40 PM
At the time the driver on the left is in the transition from braking to turn-in, could they even see the white car on the right? It's been over 10 years since I was in a formula car, so I'm not sure how much coverage is there.

And it appears the car making the pass had the rear step out just a little but i cannot tell if there was a cause (crossing the white line, a slippery patch, too much speed).

No conclusions based on that very short video.

In our regional rulebook, the guidance is "Overtaking drivers are responsible for the decision to pass another car and to accomplish the pass safely." In this case it's not really a dive-bomb, but it seems that the pass was performed in a potential blind spot.

Another question a steward might ask is "could the passing car successfully negotiate the corner on their current trajectory?" The video is very short, but maybe the white car could have completed the corner without incident if the blue car was not there.

DavidSim
01-18-2017, 03:56 PM
It appears to me that the car doing the passing was taking a less than desirable path (on the inside) through the corner that caused it to go wide and use up all the track (and not leave room for the car being passed).

It was a slow corner so no serious outcome, but I wouldn't want someone doing the same to me going in to corner 8 at CTMP.

13inches
01-18-2017, 04:01 PM
Was the car being passed also being lapped?

alangbaker
01-18-2017, 06:29 PM
Was the car being passed also being lapped?

Yes, and he had turned in late and was going around the corner well wide of the apex to allow the battle between the two FCs (the camera car and the yellow-orangey car) to go through.

Rob Martin
01-18-2017, 06:58 PM
If you look between the 4 and 5 sec mark you will see the white Ford is already ahead of the blue Ford and there is still substantial room between the cars given how wide the entry is for the blue Ford. Just before the 5 sec mark there is still a couple feet between the two cars and the blue Ford's front wheel is even with the white car's rear wheel at that point, but it continues to turn in. There is a bit of a rear slide from the white car which doesn't help.

The video is short and just one view, but I'd say the pass on the inside was reasonable to attempt, and the blue car did not expect him there, or see him. Things happen fast, but I'd say the blue car should have been able to see the white car along side as they went through the corner and been able to avoid turning in so much at that point.

My two cents.

Rob Martin
GT1 Camaro #167

Doug P
01-18-2017, 07:51 PM
If you look between the 4 and 5 sec mark you will see the white Ford is already ahead of the blue Ford and there is still substantial room between the cars given how wide the entry is for the blue Ford. Just before the 5 sec mark there is still a couple feet between the two cars and the blue Ford's front wheel is even with the white car's rear wheel at that point, but it continues to turn in. There is a bit of a rear slide from the white car which doesn't help.

The video is short and just one view, but I'd say the pass on the inside was reasonable to attempt, and the blue car did not expect him there, or see him. Things happen fast, but I'd say the blue car should have been able to see the white car along side as they went through the corner and been able to avoid turning in so much at that point.

My two cents.

Rob Martin
GT1 Camaro #167

Blue car should have been aware, lots of time before corner to expect a pass attempt with other car coming up inside. He should have turned in later and repassed on inside when passing car went deep and wide. Maybe that was his intent and misjudged.

alangbaker
01-18-2017, 09:26 PM
If you look between the 4 and 5 sec mark you will see the white Ford is already ahead of the blue Ford and there is still substantial room between the cars given how wide the entry is for the blue Ford. Just before the 5 sec mark there is still a couple feet between the two cars and the blue Ford's front wheel is even with the white car's rear wheel at that point, but it continues to turn in. There is a bit of a rear slide from the white car which doesn't help.

The video is short and just one view, but I'd say the pass on the inside was reasonable to attempt, and the blue car did not expect him there, or see him. Things happen fast, but I'd say the blue car should have been able to see the white car along side as they went through the corner and been able to avoid turning in so much at that point.

My two cents.

Rob Martin
GT1 Camaro #167

There was too much lateral separation, so the white car wasn't in the mirrors when it would have been apparent that he was running deep.

Chris Lawson
01-19-2017, 10:00 PM
There was too much lateral separation, so the white car wasn't in the mirrors when it would have been apparent that he was running deep.

Yes, but at the moment the Blue/Black car turns in the white car is beside him. He needs to see the white car, or at least should. When the white car is directly beside the blue car, the onus is on the blue car not to turn into the white car.

It is at that moment things go "sideways". The white car gets sideways under braking and over cooks the apex. Instead of the blue are taking evasive action, he/she continues on course-- there is no evasive action by the blue car, which, in my opinion, should have been taken, or at least attempted.

2.5C worth

alangbaker
01-20-2017, 03:26 AM
Yes, but at the moment the Blue/Black car turns in the white car is beside him. He needs to see the white car, or at least should. When the white car is directly beside the blue car, the onus is on the blue car not to turn into the white car.

It is at that moment things go "sideways". The white car gets sideways under braking and over cooks the apex. Instead of the blue are taking evasive action, he/she continues on course-- there is no evasive action by the blue car, which, in my opinion, should have been taken, or at least attempted.

2.5C worth

Except the blue and black car was already 5 car widths outside the normal racing line...

...and at the moment the blue and black car turned in, the white car was completely behind it.

I've attached a screenshot from the video that shows that blue and black FF turned enough the the right front wheel is no longer hidden from the camera car. Note it's position at that moment; still clear ahead of the white car.

DavidSim
01-20-2017, 08:27 AM
The way I understand the rules it appears to me that if blame is to be assigned then it is the driver of the car doing the passing who is at fault.

The reasons I believe the above are:

1. It appears the trajectory and speed of the car doing the passing caused it to go way wide which may have surprised the driver of the car being passed (not allowing enough time for an evasive action)

2. I do not see how the car doing the passing could have hit the apex of the corner properly which another driver probably would have expected him/her to do

3. The driver doing the passing has the best view of things, it is the responsibility of this driver to assess the situation and make sure the pass is safe or is aborted if not safe

4. The driver of the car being passed had slowed down, appeared to be out of the way as best he/she could given the circumstance, left plenty of room on the right for the other car to pass (it appears the apex of the corner is to the right which would make sense if so)

Now, someone tell me why I am wrong.

In addition, perhaps there is a new driver involved, perhaps there is some bravado involved, perhaps there is some coaching required, perhaps someone needs to understand that it is Club Racing and not F1.

Regards to all my racing buddies.

Chris Lawson
01-20-2017, 12:10 PM
Except the blue and black car was already 5 car widths outside the normal racing line...

...and at the moment the blue and black car turned in, the white car was completely behind it.

I've attached a screenshot from the video that shows that blue and black FF turned enough the the right front wheel is no longer hidden from the camera car. Note it's position at that moment; still clear ahead of the white car.

Yes..... at that moment you are correct. But fraction of a second later the white car is in front, and not in full control. It is at that moment the blue car should have changed course, but didn't.

There are two issues at hand. Who/what "caused" the incident, and what was done to mitigate the risk. In my view, the white car went in too hot (cause), however the accident happened because the blue car continued on his path, despite the white car crossing into his path---in front of him/her. Had the white car slowed soon = No incident. Had the blue car braked, or turned out = No accident.

As with this and most accidents, it is many factors coming together to produce an unintended result.

terrydale
01-20-2017, 01:32 PM
"Two cars can get through a corner side by side if they give each other one car width plus 1" of room."

There are errors of 'omission' and errors of 'commission'. Was the contact intentional or unintentional.

The passing car on the right has significantly faster closing speed and was well within the peripheral vision of the car being passed on the left at the moment of contact. The car on the left had ample opportunity to 'breathe' the car and turn in a split second later which would have avoided any contact and allowed the faster car to continue.

Car on the left - based on its slower speed and lack of awareness - could be a lesser experienced driver who just learned something. It might also have been a mechanical issue that caused him to be off-pace. His best opportunity might have been to let the white car pass cleanly and then tuck in tight behind him for a couple of laps and learn from the experience.

Chris Lawson
01-20-2017, 02:10 PM
"Two cars can get through a corner side by side if they give each other one car width plus 1" of room."

There are errors of 'omission' and errors of 'commission'. Was the contact intentional or unintentional.

The passing car on the right has significantly faster closing speed and was well within the peripheral vision of the car being passed on the left at the moment of contact. The car on the left had ample opportunity to 'breathe' the car and turn in a split second later which would have avoided any contact and allowed the faster car to continue.

Car on the left - based on its slower speed and lack of awareness - could be a lesser experienced driver who just learned something. It might also have been a mechanical issue that caused him to be off-pace. His best opportunity might have been to let the white car pass cleanly and then tuck in tight behind him for a couple of laps and learn from the experience.


The Master has spoken :)

DavidSim
01-20-2017, 03:04 PM
>>The passing car on the right has significantly faster closing speed and was well within the peripheral vision of the car being passed on the left at the moment of contact.<<

The car being passed had already started turning before the passing car got up beside (3 second mark), the car being passed was already over to the far left side of the track with little room left and had already provided significant track space for the passing car on the right (where it appears the racing line is to apex the corner).

>>The car on the left had ample opportunity to 'breathe' the car and turn in a split second later which would have avoided any contact and allowed the faster car to continue.<<

From what I can see the driver being passed would then have had to pretty much drive off the track to provide the passing car any more room, or slam on the brakes.

>>Car on the left - based on its slower speed and lack of awareness - could be a lesser experienced driver who just learned something. It might also have been a mechanical issue that caused him to be off-pace. His best opportunity might have been to let the white car pass cleanly and then tuck in tight behind him for a couple of laps and learn from the experience.<<

The car being passed was already off the racing line it appears, was going slowly and allowing plenty of room to pass on the right (where it appears the racing line would be to apex the corner), had already started turning before the passing car was alongside; the passing car sure looked like it was dive bombing the corner at too high a speed to safely navigate the corner which resulted in the wide arc and the resultant love tap.

Gosh if that kind of thing is acceptable I better put some external crash bars on the side of my car, and hope that someone doesn't pull that crap on me at high speed in Corner 8 at CTMP.

alangbaker
01-20-2017, 03:27 PM
Yes..... at that moment you are correct. But fraction of a second later the white car is in front, and not in full control. It is at that moment the blue car should have changed course, but didn't.

At that point, the white car is completely out of view from the blue car.

There are two issues at hand. Who/what "caused" the incident, and what was done to mitigate the risk. In my view, the white car went in too hot (cause), however the accident happened because the blue car continued on his path, despite the white car crossing into his path---in front of him/her. Had the white car slowed soon = No incident. Had the blue car braked, or turned out = No accident.

The white car never "crossed" the path of the blue car.

alangbaker
01-20-2017, 03:30 PM
"Two cars can get through a corner side by side if they give each other one car width plus 1" of room."

There are errors of 'omission' and errors of 'commission'. Was the contact intentional or unintentional.

The passing car on the right has significantly faster closing speed and was well within the peripheral vision of the car being passed on the left at the moment of contact. The car on the left had ample opportunity to 'breathe' the car and turn in a split second later which would have avoided any contact and allowed the faster car to continue.

Ummm... ...no. The car on the left had no vision of the white car until a split second before contact.

Car on the left - based on its slower speed and lack of awareness - could be a lesser experienced driver who just learned something. It might also have been a mechanical issue that caused him to be off-pace. His best opportunity might have been to let the white car pass cleanly and then tuck in tight behind him for a couple of laps and learn from the experience.

The car on the left was perfectly aware of the cars closing from behind... ...who were all from faster classes (the two cars not involved are Formula Continentals, the white car is a Formula Ford Ecoboost from Europe with a little less than twice the power of the blue Formula Ford-Kent he was overtaking). The overtaking car was the one being driven by a rookie.

DavidSim
01-20-2017, 03:45 PM
>>The overtaking car was the one being driven by a rookie.<<

I thought so.

RETROCRX
01-20-2017, 03:54 PM
The driver of the Ecoboost had blown that corner regardless of whether the Kent car was there or not. Look at the very end of the video, how far off line he is compared to the camera car.

He was trying to force a pass that he wasn't 100% on for him, in order to put a slower car between him and the camera car before the corner.

I'm not sure how much wider the Kent car could be expected to go reasonably while being lapped.

For me that's totally on the passing driver in the Ecoboost.

Chris Lawson
01-21-2017, 09:20 AM
At that point, the white car is completely out of view from the blue car.



The white car never "crossed" the path of the blue car.

Well, you ask for our opinion, and now you are debating it.

Which car were you driving?

oblio125
01-21-2017, 10:18 AM
Well, you ask for our opinion, and now you are debating it.

Which car were you driving?

:)

alangbaker
01-21-2017, 12:57 PM
Well, you ask for our opinion, and now you are debating it.

I'm not sure that pointing out two facts counts as "debating". :)

Chris Lawson
01-23-2017, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure that pointing out two facts counts as "debating". :)

Which car were you driving?

terrydale
01-24-2017, 12:28 AM
Ummm... ...no. The car on the left had no vision of the white car until a split second before contact.
The car on the left was perfectly aware of the cars closing from behind... ...who were all from faster classes (the two cars not involved are Formula Continentals, the white car is a Formula Ford Ecoboost from Europe with a little less than twice the power of the blue Formula Ford-Kent he was overtaking). The overtaking car was the one being driven by a rookie.

And that is why one never draws conclusions based on one piece of video!! And without speaking to the drivers involved and those who witnessed it. ;)

alangbaker
01-24-2017, 07:34 PM
Which car were you driving?

Irrelevant to what happened.

What I will tell you is that the driver of the white car came over and apologized to the driver of the blue car because he knew he'd completely screwed up. With no prompting, he offered to pay for the repairs.

ScotcH
01-24-2017, 09:06 PM
With no prompting, he offered to pay for the repairs.

That is rare indeed ...

shamrock
01-25-2017, 10:24 AM
It sure is and well done. Would be nice to see more of that.

KevinG
01-26-2017, 02:13 PM
I'm going to say something and then everyone can yell at me and tell me how I am young, inexperienced and wrong.

When "'m teaching new drivers about navigating a corner, you are taught you are signing a contract. I'm going to enter at X Speed, with Y Apex, and Z Radius, and there is no changing this contract. You committed. You turned in too late, or your going too fast, well.. grab onto your boots!

The white formula ford seems to have an insane amount of pace and while it isn't multi-class racing, we normally have to ask the question of risk vs reward. Is making the pass right then and there critical, or is waiting until the following straight the safer move? This might be a different story if the white car crashed out and started crying foul play.

I always tell drivers to be predictable. This objective isn't to surprise or scary anyone. I've recently dealt with a similar racing incident where two drivers, taking two completely different lines, and apexes, came together in the middle of the corner. And along with some broken cars, are now broken friendships.

Personally, I would assign the 'brain fart' moment on the white car. The moment the blue car turned the wheel, he/she was committed to a certain line, and it's their right. Had the white car been closer, he/she could have pulled along the inside of the blue car, under the braking zone, and controlled the inside of the corner, and everyone being safe. Even if they were on the same forward position, if your 5 cars to the left or right, with a halo seat your in a totally blind spot.

I understand racing isn't perfect, and what students and new drivers are taught are different from what they learn racing in the real world, but the driver of the white formula ford put themselves in a position they didn't need to be in.

Cheers!
(Preparing for the severe beating)

DavidSim
01-26-2017, 02:41 PM
>>but the driver of the white formula ford put themselves in a position they didn't need to be in<<

That works for me, no beating required.

alangbaker
01-26-2017, 05:23 PM
I'm going to say something and then everyone can yell at me and tell me how I am young, inexperienced and wrong.

When "'m teaching new drivers about navigating a corner, you are taught you are signing a contract. I'm going to enter at X Speed, with Y Apex, and Z Radius, and there is no changing this contract. You committed. You turned in too late, or your going too fast, well.. grab onto your boots!

The white formula ford seems to have an insane amount of pace and while it isn't multi-class racing, we normally have to ask the question of risk vs reward.

Just to clarify, this was a multi-class race. In that video, you see two Formula Continentals (the camera car and the yellow car), one Formula Ford (the blue and black car) and one Formula Ford Ecoboost, which is a different class originally from Europe, and as a sidenote, it should have had wings on it, but the driver had already had an incident that weekend where he took the nose wing off the car, so they took off the rear for basic balance.

:)

alangbaker
01-26-2017, 05:28 PM
>>but the driver of the white formula ford put themselves in a position they didn't need to be in<<

That works for me, no beating required.

Especially in light of the fact that it was literally the last lap of a race where he could neither catch anyone or be caught by anyone else in the Formula Libra class...

Chris Lawson
01-27-2017, 09:14 PM
I'm not sure that pointing out two facts counts as "debating". :)

So now you are deciding what is indeed "fact" eh?


I see you were driving the blue car........

alangbaker
01-27-2017, 09:36 PM
So now you are deciding what is indeed "fact" eh?

Yup. I was there, and I'm telling you the facts.

:)


I see you were driving the blue car........

So what if I was.

Fact: the driver of the white car apologized for the incident to the driver of the blue car.

Fact: the driver who was there that day who posted the video explained that the blue car was "5 car widths" off the racing line.

Those are facts no matter who was driving which car.

Chris Lawson
01-27-2017, 09:38 PM
Welcome to racing :)

alangbaker
01-27-2017, 10:40 PM
Thanks!

I'm quite enjoying it.

:)