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Brutus
03-06-2017, 10:36 PM
Can someone please direct me to the 2017 Time Attack Rules.

Many thanks.

GT42RR
03-06-2017, 11:10 PM
Here is 2016 info. 2017 updates will be available very shortly.

http://time-attack.ca/rules/

Brutus
03-06-2017, 11:25 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I'm aware of the 2016 OTA rules. I've been asking about the 2017 rules for several months. Registration is less than four weeks away and the rules still aren't available. Why all the secrecy ? How about posting the changes at least ?

GT42RR
03-07-2017, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I'm aware of the 2016 OTA rules. I've been asking about the 2017 rules for several months. Registration is less than four weeks away and the rules still aren't available. Why all the secrecy ? How about posting the changes at least ?

Jud
We are very aware that things are way behind and some very MAJOR changes are being made to resolve this issue. This will not happen in the future and we are really excited to have you at OTA.

I see you run your car through the PAX calculator all it needs is approval and you are good to go.

Dave Barker
03-07-2017, 01:44 PM
The big change this year is in the RTC classes which will be basically aligned with Global Time Attack rules. Nice to have a choice for all competitors to run either regular OTA classing or RTC classing. The final bits are being "finalized"

Brutus
03-07-2017, 03:22 PM
Hello GT32RR,

Yes I ran a version of my car through the calculator. I was waiting to see the 2017 rules before making some final preparation decisions.

Brutus
03-07-2017, 03:28 PM
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply.

I look forward to reading the 2017 rules.

Is it the intention for CASC to phase out OTA classing or are they just adding RTC (GTA) classing in an effort to attract competitors from other series?

Jud

wparsons
03-07-2017, 05:20 PM
The OTA (iPAX) classing isn't going anywhere, the RTC classes are just another option to attract more people.

Brutus
03-07-2017, 05:40 PM
Thanks for the clarification.

No one can argue with adding some optional classes to attract more people to motorsport, while keeping the current OTA classification and iPAX system intact. Which I think is light years ahead of what other events and programs have ever offered. The current OTA system also allows classification, scoring and vehicle preparation rules to be very defensible and transparent.

Cheers,

Jud

scorcherjf
03-08-2017, 12:18 PM
Quick question about helmets... will SA2005 helmets be acceptable still?

Slowpoke
03-08-2017, 09:33 PM
2016 Rules, Section 1.02 Page 8:

Snell 2005 SA, or 2005 M (expiry 2018-12-31)



We have not received any notification from ASN Canada FIA that this date needs to change, so assume that it will not.

Time Attack Director
03-22-2017, 07:48 PM
Thank you for your patience, and sorry for the delay, but the wait is over! Thank you to Gary Vernon, Dov Aronoff, John Paczynski, Perry Ianuzzi and the rest of the Committee for what turned out to be a fast turn around once the trigger was pulled.

2017 Ontario Time Attack Rules and Regulations (http://time-attack.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2017-Time-Attack-Rules.pdf)

http://time-attack.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/t1-mohammed-hussain.jpg

1qwkmini
03-23-2017, 07:05 AM
YEAH, YIPPEE

Again another set of last minute rules in Time Attack!!!!!

It's nice that you have added the rules from another Time Attack series to your rule set!!!! Yes, we can now go out and build a car to a specific set of rules and spends lots of money (to comply with those rules) to come out and have some fun/be competitive/test yourself. (you can add your own phrase in here).

My understanding of the whole RTC thing was to attract new people to your events..."the run what you brung" crowd. Someone and his buddies with cars that don't particularly fit any Time Attack rule set, maybe an x GT sprint car, Chump car, street car etc. (TA is great place to get some seat time, practice qualifying and learn the sport)

You've once again closed the doors to these people (me included) that were planning on attending some of your events. Sure I can show up and run in something like MOD 2....YIPPEE again.

I don't think that your headed in the right direction. People run the other BIG DOLLAR series (CSCS,GTA) for reasons other than having some fun and getting some track time.

Gwoody27
03-23-2017, 05:35 PM
YEAH, YIPPEE

Again another set of last minute rules in Time Attack!!!!!

It's nice that you have added the rules from another Time Attack series to your rule set!!!! Yes, we can now go out and build a car to a specific set of rules and spends lots of money (to comply with those rules) to come out and have some fun/be competitive/test yourself. (you can add your own phrase in here).

My understanding of the whole RTC thing was to attract new people to your events..."the run what you brung" crowd. Someone and his buddies with cars that don't particularly fit any Time Attack rule set, maybe an x GT sprint car, Chump car, street car etc. (TA is great place to get some seat time, practice qualifying and learn the sport)

You've once again closed the doors to these people (me included) that were planning on attending some of your events. Sure I can show up and run in something like MOD 2....YIPPEE again.

I don't think that your headed in the right direction. People run the other BIG DOLLAR series (CSCS,GTA) for reasons other than having some fun and getting some track time.



Sorry you feel the way you do. OTA offers a great place for newbies to begin their track driving careers. Let's see how:

1. OTA provides schools at great prices that are aimed to novice and experienced alike.

2. Consistent rules, you will notice very few changes in the standard OTA classes

3. As of last season OTA instituted an IPax scoring system, which is targeted at you and all other 'run what you brung' types. All cars are fairly classed and you don't have to be built to the max of the class to win. Last year some classes were won by people who didn't exactly fit the maximum class modifications.

4. OTA people are helpful and fun.

5. OTA offers a ton of track time each day.

So if you think you are a good driver, OTA is one and maybe only place you can find out for sure using fair rules sets. No excuses, just come out and drive your best.

1qwkmini
03-23-2017, 05:59 PM
Gary I'm not exactly new to the sport, although I've been absent from the sport for many years.

My only point was that again, for a second year, release new rules about RTC one month before the season begins...same as last year. What was wrong with the original RTC rules...why adopt GTA/CSCS rules? If I wanted those rules I would run in CSCS/GTA

Let me ask you where an x GT sprint car or a Chump Car fits into the whole Ipax thing. These would be perfect cars to attract to OTA...since Chump has very few events. If you go into the CC site, most will end up in SGT1/2 or a MOD class, simply because they are gutted.

Can I class my car simply based on the dyno plot/weight setup or is there more to it than that?

Dave Barker
03-23-2017, 07:21 PM
Can I class my car simply based on the dyno plot/weight setup or is there more to it than that?

Basically yes, you always could. Your base car has a handling index that doesn't change and if you strip more that 10% of the wgt of the OE car, you will pay a few pips extra but the basic determinant of performance index or PI is wgt /hp and if you have a weight and HP number,(i.e race weight and dyno plot if you have done a lot of engine mods) it fits in fine. If you haven't done much in the way on engine mods then you don't even need a dyno plot. High SGT or Mod class PIs usually need a lot of hp, and/or light weight, and /or a huge list of suspension mods or race slicks. I didn't think these are normal attributes of chump cars so they should have no issue running in an appropriate performance class.

You may not be aware that each of our classes is theoretically separated by just a bit more than 1 second on a 70 second track and for the last few years, the series has been won by quite heavily modified cars, not "showroom stock" equivalents

As someone who wanted the old RTC classing, I will be the first to admit, it was a total failure last year. Despite not needing to build a car to a class and the simplest of rule sets, very few people wanted to run the RTC classes. Therefore we have gone ahead and used other classification systems to attract those who already run in other series but would like to run on the tracks we run with the type of daily schedule that we have.

1qwkmini
03-23-2017, 08:37 PM
Dave
I'll PM you some numbers and maybe you can give me an idea of where the Mini would fit in based on Weight Dyno. BTW I should clear up the my car is not a Chump Car...just that old RTC was perfect for old race cars and Chump cars.

RTC probably struggled because the rules were introduced just before the season started last year (seemed like a last minute thought). I was planning on entering the Mini but Life and Business got in the way and the car wasn't even running until October.

I think with some advertising (target Chump guys etc) and word of mouth RTC could have taken off (in it's old form) if it were given another year. Stable rules and all!!

wparsons
03-23-2017, 08:44 PM
My only point was that again, for a second year, release new rules about RTC one month before the season begins...same as last year. What was wrong with the original RTC rules...why adopt GTA/CSCS rules? If I wanted those rules I would run in CSCS/GTA

There's no GTA events north of the border, this lets people that have cars built for those rules race with us.

Let me ask you where an x GT sprint car or a Chump Car fits into the whole Ipax thing. These would be perfect cars to attract to OTA...since Chump has very few events. If you go into the CC site, most will end up in SGT1/2 or a MOD class, simply because they are gutted.

That'll depend on what the base car is, and what exactly is modified (and incurs a PIP penalty). Just because it's gutted doesn't mean it's going to be that high up in the classes, there's some gutted cars quite low in the classing system. Michael Gardner was in SGT2 (IIRC) with a fully gutted and heavily modified 350z.

Can I class my car simply based on the dyno plot/weight setup or is there more to it than that?

Not just dyno/weight, you'd still have to account for any suspension mods. If you hit a certain number of body pips you have to submit a race weight anyway, same goes for engine pips.

I'd run your car through the CCDB and see where it comes out before getting too frustrated, you might be pleasantly surprised at where you land.

1qwkmini
03-24-2017, 05:42 AM
I ran it thru the CCDB and it comes out at somewhere around MOD2 for a car
with about 10#/HP

It's Michael's car that confuses me...where he is classed (SGT?) and he is probably close to 8#/HP and I'm assuming similar suspension mods.

I've know John P. for many years and TA seasons...he reached out yesterday and I sent him my car specs and we are trying to see where it will fit in and what info he needs to class the MIni.

I'm not looking for some crazy class to run in, just some thing fair (considering Michael's car) and I don't think MOD2 is a fair place...just trying to work thru the rules.

Let's see how many GTA/CSCS cars you actually get...that is a different crowd and atmosphere!!!! Yes, licensed and insured with a 5-600hp turbocharged Honda motor!!!!

GT42RR
03-24-2017, 08:25 AM
@1qwkmini I really don't want to get in to a argument with you so Im going to ignore most of your rant, but I want you to understand that CSCS and GTA competitors are amongst the best drivers and car builders in North America.
Yes the car show and culture is not for everyone but ignore all the hype and look at the cars.

James Houghton
Will Au-Yeung
Chris Boersma
Richard Boke
Michael Gardner
Alex Li
Sasha Anis

All the above have gone to the USA and dominated in events across the country, FYI they are all previous CSCS competitors. I think instead of having rants on the internet you should get in contact with the CCC and figure out where your car fits. If you don't find a class at OTA where it is competitive i guess its time to make some changes. OTA currently has the most diverse rule sets of any time attack series.
Although to me it just sounds like your Mini is not "QWK" enough.

Cheers

k.beaty
03-24-2017, 09:08 AM
Let me ask you where an x GT sprint car or a Chump Car fits into the whole Ipax thing. These would be perfect cars to attract to OTA...since Chump has very few events. If you go into the CC site, most will end up in SGT1/2 or a MOD class, simply because they are gutted.



I have a fully gutted car. 1 drivers seat, a dash and part of a center console. Along with that is a 6-point cage, and I'm in Touring 2. Perhaps these guys can explore the "race weight" option....

wparsons
03-24-2017, 10:23 AM
I ran it thru the CCDB and it comes out at somewhere around MOD2 for a car
with about 10#/HP

It's Michael's car that confuses me...where he is classed (SGT?) and he is probably close to 8#/HP and I'm assuming similar suspension mods.

I've know John P. for many years and TA seasons...he reached out yesterday and I sent him my car specs and we are trying to see where it will fit in and what info he needs to class the MIni.

I'm not looking for some crazy class to run in, just some thing fair (considering Michael's car) and I don't think MOD2 is a fair place...just trying to work thru the rules.

Just looked at your PIP schedule (named '2015'), is the car really that light without you (2178lbs)? That puts it at about 500lbs lighter than stock. By comparison, Mike's car was just over 3100lbs, and he wasn't running R compounds so he comes out 5 pips (a full class) lower.. What power does the mini make?

Slowpoke
03-24-2017, 10:29 AM
1QWKMINI, you have 700lbs stripped out of your car (2187 + your 200lbs driver weight) and 17 Engine PIPs. A dyno plot might bring you down to Mod3.

Also, you're claiming shocks, but not springs? Are those the original stock springs? If you are using coilovers, you need to claim springs as well / non-stock ride height.

You have added an LSD, have full aero PIP's, and the equivalent of Hankook TD's / Pirelli Trofeo R's. You're probably turning low 1:30's at GP track? Mod 3 would have you winning the championship.

Silvia_Drift
03-24-2017, 02:59 PM
Great job getting the rules out!

I have a question about the PIP system. My car is a 2005 Honda S2000 with a Science of Speed Stage 1 Supercharger kit. This is a centrifugal Paxton supercharger setup that utilizes a piggyback ECU controller, rising rate FMU (stock fuel injectors) and water/air heat exchanger. This is the kit:

https://www.scienceofspeed.com/index.php/s2000/enpp/supercharger-turbocharger-components/scienceofspeed-stage-1-supercharger-system-s2000-2000-03-2-0l-2004-05-international-2-0l.html

Would I just need to select the following in the PIP schedule or would additional PIPs need to be added.

The addition of a supercharger system to a vehicle that did not come factory equipped with one; includes all modifications permitted under Sections 5.0A.1 (Roots type superchargers only), 5.0C.2, 5.0D.5.

Note: Additional PIPs are assessed for modifications under Sections 5.0A.2, 5.0B.1, 5.0D.1 and 5.0D.2.

Also, would adding a full stand alone (eg. AEM EMS), larger fuel injectors, larger heat exchanger or a smaller pulley (for increased boost) add PiPs?

Thanks.

3wheeler
03-24-2017, 04:32 PM
Let me ask you where an x GT sprint car or a Chump Car fits into the whole Ipax thing. These would be perfect cars to attract to OTA...since Chump has very few events. If you go into the CC site, most will end up in SGT1/2 or a MOD class, simply because they are gutted.

Have you actually put them through to verify?

The reason I ask is because when I last competed in OTA with my E36, which is a popular chump car from what I hear, it was completely gutted with MANY other mods (i.e coils, tune, exhaust etc) and only ended up in GT1. I know the rules have changes a little since then but not by that much!

I think OTA is smart for cross promoting with other time-attack series such as CSCS/GTA. There is A LOT of T/A cars to draw from that regularly attend those events - far more than chump/Regional racing.

1qwkmini
03-24-2017, 04:50 PM
Just to be clear I never said anything negative about CSCS/GTA drivers or cars...just that it is a different crowd. I've met some of those drivers and they truly are great drivers. My point was that I don't see them coming to OTA events. A CSCS event is a whole different animal to OTA...it's a spectical!!!

Must have used the fat finger in the CCDB---it's actually around 2287 or 2500ish with driver. Approx 250HP...that puts it at about 10#/HP

Not sure where you get your stock car weight but my number is 2678 stock...so you can call it 400lbs (it's gutted and has a full cage)...it was never built as TA car.

Micheal's car has about the same level of prep (seen the car) and I'm assuming that he is 3100# with driver and what HP 350-380 or more??? That puts him at 8-9#/HP and he is in SGT2, because he isn't running R compound tires?? And I would be in MOD2/3 (regardless of the pips that I entered or missed in the CCDB) because I choose to run R888R's

Makes great sense to me!!!

Low 1:30's at CTMP...I wish...the car is basically a clone of the Team Octane cars (they also make about the same HP) and they qualify at 1:34/35 on slicks!!!

Corey---yes but you started with an E36 (quick on track out of the box) and built it to the rules at the time.....that is easier than fitting a built car into the rules. And BTW...you were driving!!!!!!...give that car to someone else and it would likely be a different story;)

BTW this is the last post that I will make...I will deal in private with John P. on the whole issue.

Slowpoke
03-25-2017, 08:51 PM
BTW this is the last post that I will make...I will deal in private with John P. on the whole issue.

Big improvement to see you in SGT2 properly classed! See you out there! :)

wparsons
03-27-2017, 04:15 PM
Just to be clear I never said anything negative about CSCS/GTA drivers or cars...just that it is a different crowd. I've met some of those drivers and they truly are great drivers. My point was that I don't see them coming to OTA events. A CSCS event is a whole different animal to OTA...it's a spectical!!!

Must have used the fat finger in the CCDB---it's actually around 2287 or 2500ish with driver. Approx 250HP...that puts it at about 10#/HP

Not sure where you get your stock car weight but my number is 2678 stock...so you can call it 400lbs (it's gutted and has a full cage)...it was never built as TA car.

Micheal's car has about the same level of prep (seen the car) and I'm assuming that he is 3100# with driver and what HP 350-380 or more??? That puts him at 8-9#/HP and he is in SGT2, because he isn't running R compound tires?? And I would be in MOD2/3 (regardless of the pips that I entered or missed in the CCDB) because I choose to run R888R's

Makes great sense to me!!!

Low 1:30's at CTMP...I wish...the car is basically a clone of the Team Octane cars (they also make about the same HP) and they qualify at 1:34/35 on slicks!!!

Corey---yes but you started with an E36 (quick on track out of the box) and built it to the rules at the time.....that is easier than fitting a built car into the rules. And BTW...you were driving!!!!!!...give that car to someone else and it would likely be a different story;)

BTW this is the last post that I will make...I will deal in private with John P. on the whole issue.

Sounds like you're sorted out now... just adding detail in case anyone else is following the thread.

Your race weight entered was ~2378 IIRC with 200lbs listed for your weight, which puts the car at 2178lbs, the listed spec weight for a stock one was in the 2680 range which is where I got the 500lb loss from. Just adding your weight to the race weight helps out quite a bit, especially on the extra weight loss pips based on %age of weight removed.

If you do end up in SGT2, you're definitely not far off a class winning pace with a 1:34/1:35 lap. The SGT2 winner last year ran a 1:33.218 and second place was a 1:34.864.

1qwkmini
03-27-2017, 05:13 PM
Just to correct a few thing....it's all good though...looks like SGT2 with cheater tire (just hard to believe that most are actually 200's). No dig at any competitor. Or more likely SGT1 since I've already ordered R888r's. Still trying to figure out the final configuration.

I somehow screwed up the car weight, it's actually 2287 ( missed 100 lbs in the CCDB). The car weight will actually be higher after reading the rules...the 2287 is the bone dry weight...so as per the weight rule with full tank etc probably closer to 2600-2625 with driver (damn winter weight).

Working on Saturday, so no open house, but planning on attending the first event.

Cheers

nissannx
03-31-2017, 12:42 PM
Just for fun I entered the changes I've done with my car. On Street tires it would be SGT2 - on Toyo RRs it would be mod3.
And to think that in 2010 it was a T3 car! Maybe I should stop with the modifications ... :D Nope.

scorcherjf
04-07-2017, 05:07 PM
Great job getting the rules out!

I have a question about the PIP system. My car is a 2005 Honda S2000 with a Science of Speed Stage 1 Supercharger kit. This is a centrifugal Paxton supercharger setup that utilizes a piggyback ECU controller, rising rate FMU (stock fuel injectors) and water/air heat exchanger. This is the kit:

https://www.scienceofspeed.com/index.php/s2000/enpp/supercharger-turbocharger-components/scienceofspeed-stage-1-supercharger-system-s2000-2000-03-2-0l-2004-05-international-2-0l.html

Would I just need to select the following in the PIP schedule or would additional PIPs need to be added.

The addition of a supercharger system to a vehicle that did not come factory equipped with one; includes all modifications permitted under Sections 5.0A.1 (Roots type superchargers only), 5.0C.2, 5.0D.5.

Note: Additional PIPs are assessed for modifications under Sections 5.0A.2, 5.0B.1, 5.0D.1 and 5.0D.2.

Also, would adding a full stand alone (eg. AEM EMS), larger fuel injectors, larger heat exchanger or a smaller pulley (for increased boost) add PiPs?

Thanks.
Hey Silvia_Drift,

I'd suggest you contact the Car Classification Committee at timeattack.ccc@casc.on.ca with your questions so they can further assist you. Also, you could try and fill out a PIP schedule as best you can here http://ccdb.casc.on.ca and submit it and we would be able to clear up any questions about your specific modifications and assess whether more PIPs are needed or if some are redundant.

scooter
04-10-2017, 01:43 PM
Just wanted to introduce myself here as I hope to make it over for an event or two. As a CSCS competitor I am excited about the RTC class and think it really opens up the opportunity for cross series participation. It's just a shame the one event I would love to participate in (GP) conflicts with a CSCS date. Hope to see some of you out there!

LemonJus
04-10-2017, 05:08 PM
Hi guys,

I've been pouring over the rules for the basics (this will be my first time competing at OTA) and I've noticed that the 2017 rules are very ambiguous on the identifications compared to last years rules.

For 2017, it states:

3.6 IDENTIFICATION AND ADVERTISING
1 All competitors shall purchase (if required) and display the following
identifying items on their vehicles at all times during the competition:
i. Current year series standard door cards showing car number and
OTA sponsor identification, and
ii. Current year windshield banners (if applicable) showing car number
and OTA sponsor identification.

Acceptable methods of attachment include static cling, adhesive or
magnetic backing, the use of neatly trimmed BLACK electrical tape or
some combination of the above to ensure that the identifying items
remain in place. Contrasting tape colours shall not be used. In every
case, the presentation of the door card or windshield banner shall be
properly aligned and professional looking so as to showcase the
sponsor identification.

2 Only one entry number shall be displayed while on the course even if there
are 2 drivers.

3 Placement of sponsor decals is mandatory and cars not prominently
displaying them will not be allowed to compete. All decals shall be in place
prior to event scrutineering. Certain exemptions and dispensations may be
allowed at the discretion of the OTA Director.

As you can see, there are NO mentions of:

- Size of the entry number
- Location(s)

In the 2016 ruleset, it was VERY specific on the sizes and locations (1 on each door, 1 on the hood).

Can anyone confirm what the size and locations are (same as last year?)?

Thanks.

LemonJus

Time Attack Director
04-11-2017, 12:36 AM
Hi Lemon,

The windshield banners and door cards will be series produced, unlike in past years, to have a uniform appearance on all cars. The main door card which must be on the front door will be 18" x 18" or narrower; still being designed. It is our intention that they will be available by the May 13th school event at the DDT so that you can take time to neatly apply them before the June 10th event.

LemonJus
04-11-2017, 10:50 AM
Hi Lemon,

The windshield banners and door cards will be series produced, unlike in past years, to have a uniform appearance on all cars. The main door card which must be on the front door will be 18" x 18" or narrower; still being designed. It is our intention that they will be available by the May 13th school event at the DDT so that you can take time to neatly apply them before the June 10th event.

Thanks for the clarification!

May I suggest indicating in the rules that the banners and door cards will be provided by OTA? It would make it a lot clearer and prevent some folks from buying numbers ahead of time.

LemonJus
04-11-2017, 10:51 AM
Hey Silvia_Drift,

I'd suggest you contact the Car Classification Committee at timeattack.ccc@casc.on.ca with your questions so they can further assist you. Also, you could try and fill out a PIP schedule as best you can here http://ccdb.casc.on.ca and submit it and we would be able to clear up any questions about your specific modifications and assess whether more PIPs are needed or if some are redundant.

Hey Silvia_Drift,

Don't forget you also need a roll bar ;)

10gt61
04-11-2017, 11:48 AM
The windshield banners and door cards will be series produced

Questions:

1. Will this be at any cost to the competitor or are these items supplied by OTA?

2. Does this only apply to competitors? (as opposed to just lappers)

3. If one has previously had car numbers professionally made at their own cost (as I have done twice), can they still be used if they look good?

Grant Galloway
04-11-2017, 03:15 PM
My numbers are part of my wrap, as well as classing!

I don't really want to put anything else on the side of my car.. This was never mandatory before, providing we at least had them displayed!

I don't mind the windshield banner..

Grant

wparsons
04-11-2017, 04:57 PM
My numbers are part of my wrap, as well as classing!

I don't really want to put anything else on the side of my car.. This was never mandatory before, providing we at least had them displayed!

I don't mind the windshield banner..

Grant

Sponsor decals have always been mandatory per the rules, heavily enforced or not.

The idea for the door cards is to put the sponsor logos and number all in one easy to apply place. It's standard in pretty much any other series you'll come across.

10gt61
04-11-2017, 05:17 PM
Sponsor decals have always been mandatory per the rules, heavily enforced or not.

The idea for the door cards is to put the sponsor logos and number all in one easy to apply place. It's standard in pretty much any other series you'll come across.

Grant makes a good point though.
Some numbers, classes etc. have already been professionally made, wrapped or in some cases painted on.
While I agree fully that the cars need to look good for sponsors (I never did like the hastily added masking tape numbers), I would suggest that discretion is needed here.
This is very late notification of a change to the rules. Perhaps well presented, nice looking numbers that already exist could be grandfathered in.
BTW interesting to note that F1 and Nascar numbers are not uniform in appearance!

kmorris
04-11-2017, 05:30 PM
I don't know if I have any area on my car as large as 18 x 18. May need to crop.

Hopefully the windshield stickers will come in a small alternative format that I can apply across the top of a helmet visor.
:D

wparsons
04-11-2017, 07:47 PM
Grant makes a good point though.
Some numbers, classes etc. have already been professionally made, wrapped or in some cases painted on.
While I agree fully that the cars need to look good for sponsors (I never did like the hastily added masking tape numbers), I would suggest that discretion is needed here.
This is very late notification of a change to the rules. Perhaps well presented, nice looking numbers that already exist could be grandfathered in.
BTW interesting to note that F1 and Nascar numbers are not uniform in appearance!

Playing devil's advocate, no other series would let you run without their required decals, regardless of what else you have. If someone wanted to run CSCS, GTA, Grid Life, etc, they have to run the supplied door cards (and banners if applicable).

A huge bonus to it being standardized is that it's 100% uniform for marshals, clerks, etc.

It being late shouldn't matter since they're being supplied by the series, not requiring people to go out and source it themselves.

I don't know if I have any area on my car as large as 18 x 18. May need to crop.

Hopefully the windshield stickers will come in a small alternative format that I can apply across the top of a helmet visor.
:D

Do you have a rough ballpark of the area you do have? Might be able to come up with something different for cars with space limitations.

kmorris
04-13-2017, 10:59 AM
Do you have a rough ballpark of the area you do have? Might be able to come up with something different for cars with space limitations.

The cockpit sides would be approx. 16" high by 20" wide or so. The proposed 18 x 18 will probably (just) fit.

wparsons
04-13-2017, 02:51 PM
The cockpit sides would be approx. 16" high by 20" wide or so. The proposed 18 x 18 will probably (just) fit.

I'll try to make the designs work if a bit has to be trimmed without losing a sponsor logo.

Time Attack Director
04-14-2017, 01:40 AM
Grant makes a good point though.
Some numbers, classes etc. have already been professionally made, wrapped or in some cases painted on.

Hi Kelly,

From what I can see from past photos of what I think is your Mustang (#61), your plates are okay for lapping, but don't have the new series graphic or large enough sponsor decals to honour the forthcoming sponsorship agreements.

Plus the new ones are sexier. Adds 10hp.

Dave Barker
04-14-2017, 11:25 AM
Finally had a chance to look at my car and a few others. Unfortunately a number of class winners (and non class winners like myself) have cars with accent lines or actually physical structures longitudinally down the middle of the doors. When measured on my car, I have no more than 12" of vertical room for a door card without going over the tacked on door guards (or whatever GM calls them). Can't imagine it will look good or even stick to the car at speed. Looks to be similar for Mohammed, Carsten and Bryson. (Not sure why Krispy's car doesn't have it but mine does even though they are both C5Zs.)

OTOH, I have a lot more than 18" worth of length to play with. It appears similar to me for the others mentioned above.

I might suggest we may need 2 different door cards. 1 in a square shape and another more rectangular to fit those cars mentioned above. Besides, square only looks good on boxy cars like Subarus.

ONdriver
04-14-2017, 05:58 PM
I'll try to make the designs work if a bit has to be trimmed without losing a sponsor logo.

16" overall height works for me
Please keep the numbers at least 8" high for ease of legibility from the luxurious viewpoint of the timing van :D

BlueStreak
04-18-2017, 07:46 PM
How do we go about getting the door cards? I'm classed and registered for the lapping day to start. Won't be able to make it to the first event since I'll be at the Montreal Grand Prix. Will attend the rest of the events.

Brutus
04-20-2017, 10:28 PM
I'm not getting all this door placard and windshield banner sponsor identification requirements. Don't the competitors get a say in any of this?

I'm good with helping timing and the clerk see the car numbers but beyond that who are we trying to impress ? Is it the 12 spectators that come to watch OTA events. If you check the Highway Traffic Act you'll find it's illegal to run door numbers and cover the top of the windshield with advertising. Do we really need to draw more attention to our street cars?

Perhaps this is a case of someone over-selling a sponsor. If this new sponsor is spending so much money that they want bigger deals and advertising space on competitor cars, someone tell me what competitors are getting in return, other than two big ass door decals and a windshield banner that we'll have to install and remove before we can drive our cars legally on the road.

If you want to eliminate the green masking tape and black electrical tape numbers, then I suggest mandating and enforcing standardized numbers and classification. Make these new placards and banners optional for those that want their road car to look like a race car.

My two cents worth.


Jud

wparsons
04-21-2017, 08:57 AM
I'm not getting all this door placard and windshield banner sponsor identification requirements. Don't the competitors get a say in any of this?

I'm good with helping timing and the clerk see the car numbers but beyond that who are we trying to impress ? Is it the 12 spectators that come to watch OTA events. If you check the Highway Traffic Act you'll find it's illegal to run door numbers and cover the top of the windshield with advertising. Do we really need to draw more attention to our street cars?

Perhaps this is a case of someone over-selling a sponsor. If this new sponsor is spending so much money that they want bigger deals and advertising space on competitor cars, someone tell me what competitors are getting in return, other than two big ass door decals and a windshield banner that we'll have to install and remove before we can drive our cars legally on the road.

If you want to eliminate the green masking tape and black electrical tape numbers, then I suggest mandating and enforcing standardized numbers and classification. Make these new placards and banners optional for those that want their road car to look like a race car.

My two cents worth.


Jud

My 2 cents... sponsors keep costs down, and as track rentals and insurance costs balloon they're the only way to keep entry fees down.

Everyone involved in organizing/executing the events are volunteers, and having one standard card with all the required sponsor logos, number, etc makes it much easier on the volunteers to do their job. Having all series sponsor decals on the car has always been in the rules, but has been hard (or impossible) to police with already overworked volunteers.

Also, there is absolutely no mention of not being able to have numbers on your doors in the HTA. The only mention is that there can't be any letters or numbers on or around a license plate to obscure what the actual plate reads.

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08

Slowpoke
04-21-2017, 12:37 PM
I'm not getting all this door placard and windshield banner sponsor identification requirements. Don't the competitors get a say in any of this?

Valid question, Jud, thanks. I don't trust anything I don't understand, so I want to put forward the reality of the situation so you can judge for yourself. And yes, we do listen to competitors. We run beside you on the grid and have many of the same interests.

Jud, most competitors have steel doors so they put the door decals on magnet material. Perry at Pure Auto Graphics stocks the right thickness of material for high speed car use. A single piece of neatly trimmed black electrical tape will keep that on, and it's easy to remove between events. Are your doors fibreglass or gutted steel?

Windshield banners are standard for most series, even the CTDA. I have not heard of a banner that doesn't block the driver's view being an issue, but I'll look into it more. CSCS has required them for the better part of 15 years and that isn't an issue that I've heard of. As someone who has no sun visors anymore due to the cage, I prefer to have one!

The reasons for needing sponsor decals has changed drastically in the last few years and it's not just a simple matter. All of the sponsorship contracts we get now require us to provide sponsors with media from the events, video preferred. Sponsors are more concerned with how many Instagram followers a series like ours has than spectators. The appearance of the vehicles showing their logos matters because they want to use our photos to feed the media queue on their own sites. So that becomes important to us and them.

I'm not sure if you follow www.facebook.com/OntarioTimeAttack but we've only just started a proper campaign there in the last two months posting media regularly. A photo posted there reaches hundreds of people, a video reaches thousand(s), even if they're not all OTA content. Those numbers need to increase dramatically, they're not good yet. We have about 32 people per year who do the minimum 5/6 events. That means a video reaches 20 to 80 times more regular competitors than we have now. If 1 out 100 of those people become a regular in our series, it makes our events profitable at a lower entry fee because we have more entries. Our events are not sold out and selling them out could let us reduce competitor cost and/or do more for the competitors. Lower total cost of the series is a factor in retaining experienced competitors.

Two months of effort in social media means we now get more serious inquiries about the series though Facebook messenger than we do at the OTA Registrar's Email. We're reaching potential competitors we never reached before and many came to the JRP open house.

To keep this going, we need more attractive media that people will share, retweet, repost, etc.

Sponsorship dollars and product provided currently is between 5% and 10% of our budget and we have to work hard to get and keep even that. Tracks bump their Rental fees 3% to 5% most years. That means that if you don't want to see fees go up 3% to 5% a year, we need sponsorship growth or entry growth. One begets the other. A more attractive series to sponsors and in media is essential to this series continuing longer than a couple more years.

No one in OTA organisation is doing this to make money. For all of us, it's a passion that we want to see continue. None of us are doing this for ego or vanity. None of us like spending money with no perceived return. We feel this change is essential to having this series around in five years. We are sorry for the late notice, but new people bring new ideas and that happened in 2017, not 2016. Though this is a decades old issue, this is probably the most comprehensive way of addressing it.

Hope that helps all of our past, current and future competitors understand why we need that change, and that we're in it for the long haul! :)

Just to repeat, first set of decals will be at no additional cost to the competitor. Whether a sponsor funds it, or we do out of reserves, it has to happen. We'll be flexible where we can.

Brutus
04-21-2017, 01:23 PM
Valid question, Jud, thanks. I don't trust anything I don't understand, so I want to put forward the reality of the situation so you can judge for yourself. And yes, we do listen to competitors. We run beside you on the grid and have many of the same interests.

Jud, most competitors have steel doors so they put the door decals on magnet material. Perry at Pure Auto Graphics stocks the right thickness of material for high speed car use. A single piece of neatly trimmed black electrical tape will keep that on, and it's easy to remove between events. Are your doors fibreglass or gutted steel?

Windshield banners are standard for most series, even the CTDA. I have not heard of a banner that doesn't block the driver's view being an issue, but I'll look into it more. CSCS has required them for the better part of 15 years and that isn't an issue that I've heard of. As someone who has no sun visors anymore due to the cage, I prefer to have one!

The reasons for needing sponsor decals has changed drastically in the last few years and it's not just a simple matter. All of the sponsorship contracts we get now require us to provide sponsors with media from the events, video preferred. Sponsors are more concerned with how many Instagram followers a series like ours has than spectators. The appearance of the vehicles showing their logos matters because they want to use our photos to feed the media queue on their own sites. So that becomes important to us and them.

I'm not sure if you follow www.facebook.com/OntarioTimeAttack but we've only just started a proper campaign there in the last two months posting media regularly. A photo posted there reaches hundreds of people, a video reaches thousand(s), even if they're not all OTA content. Those numbers need to increase dramatically, they're not good yet. We have about 32 people per year who do the minimum 5/6 events. That means a video reaches 20 to 80 times more regular competitors than we have now. If 1 out 100 of those people become a regular in our series, it makes our events profitable at a lower entry fee because we have more entries. Our events are not sold out and selling them out could let us reduce competitor cost and/or do more for the competitors. Lower total cost of the series is a factor in retaining experienced competitors.

Two months of effort in social media means we now get more serious inquiries about the series though Facebook messenger than we do at the OTA Registrar's Email. We're reaching potential competitors we never reached before and many came to the JRP open house.

To keep this going, we need more attractive media that people will share, retweet, repost, etc.

Sponsorship dollars and product provided currently is between 5% and 10% of our budget and we have to work hard to get and keep even that. Tracks bump their Rental fees 3% to 5% most years. That means that if you don't want to see fees go up 3% to 5% a year, we need sponsorship growth or entry growth. One begets the other. A more attractive series to sponsors and in media is essential to this series continuing more than a couple more years.

No one in OTA organisation is doing this to make money. For all of us, it's a passion that we want to see continue. None of us are doing this for ego or vanity. None of us like spending money with no perceived return. We feel this change is essential to having this series around in five years. We are sorry for the late notice, but new people bring new ideas and that happened in 2017, not 2016. Though this is a decades old issue, this is probably the most comprehensive way of addressing it.

Hope that helps all of our past, current and future competitors understand why we need that change, and that we're in it for the long haul! :)

Just to repeat, first set of decals will be at no additional cost to the competitor. Whether a sponsor funds it, or we do out of reserves, it has to happen. We'll be flexible where we can.

Hi Stephen,

Thanks very much for taking the time to explain to competitors both the 'state of the union' and the rational behind requiring a uniform look in promoting OTA to a much needed wider and more receptive audience. I'm 100% behind the strategy that is needed for entry growth so OTA can continue to financially sustain itself.

I'll gladly put 18" X 18" big ass decals on my 18 gauge non-gutted steel doors. With so may layers of paint though I don't think Perry's magnets will work. Perhaps these decals can also be available in low-adhesive so they can easily be removed. As well maybe a non-boxy sexy version, with a slot for body-side moldings, for those hipster Corvette dudes :)

As for the windshield banner, I'm hoping to be able keep my current sponsor's 3" banner that's across the top of my 17" windshield. With my car's classic 'cabin rearward' design there is no need for sun visors. It's a good thing I rarely street drive my car though, as I discovered when I was directed by a fellow competitor to section 74 of the HTA, that I'm clearly breaking the law:

'74 (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle upon a highway, (a) unless the windshield and the windows on either side of the compartment containing the steering wheel are in such a condition as to afford the driver a clear view to the front and side of the motor vehicle.'

Whatever OTA decides I'll find a way to comply. Keep the competitor communications coming !

Jud
OTA Car# 47

1qwkmini
05-01-2017, 06:56 PM
Will the number plates and windshield banner be available at the first event?

Gwoody27
05-10-2017, 11:10 AM
The number plates for all known competitors will be available at the first event.

1qwkmini
05-10-2017, 03:42 PM
How long before the first event do I need to register to get a number plate? Or what is the option? Can I PM you to find out if a number is available?

Thanks

Slowpoke
05-11-2017, 12:59 AM
You can Email ontariotimeattack [at] gmai [dot] com about available numbers. If someone hasn't entered for two years, we'll open those numbers up again (except in special circumstances like "1")

I want to make these available at least a week before the event in one Western, Central, and Eastern location, so that means finalizing the list by May 20th. If you are series registered, watch your Emails for a poll asking how many sets you want, whether you want them magnet mounted, and advanced pickup location; Western (Hamilton), Central (Richmond Hill?) or Eastern (Oshawa-ish) or First Event.

For walk-ins and folks new to the series, there will be plates with unused numbers.

1qwkmini
05-17-2017, 09:25 AM
What was the final size for the number plates that will be provided and will the required TOYO decals be available at the first event.

Slowpoke
05-18-2017, 07:41 PM
12" x 24" including door cards and all sponsors is what we're aiming for. There will be a trim point in case the graphic HAS to go across a vertical body seam. For all of the Super 7's out there.

Toyo graphics will be available. You should mount them on the front fenders over the wheel arch if you are in the Toyo contingency. New application form being prepared.