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Time Attack Director
09-15-2017, 02:38 PM
Ontario Time Attack is pleased to announce that we are opening up options for "Street Tire" equipped cars in 2018 by allowing the Toyo R-888-R to be used as a Zero-PIP option next year. Toyo Canada places it's 2018 R-Compound order the first week of October so this poll will be to help them know what sizes we will need.

If you want to be sure that you'll have the size you need, you can place your order now with Braidan Tire or other club preferred TOYO MOTORSPORTS DEALERS for spring delivery. OTA competitors can get up to 40% off your purchase by registering for Team Toyo at http://www.toyotires.ca/racing-program.

Please select one of the first three options, and your preferred tire size.

Stephen Deneka

Snizzoop
09-15-2017, 03:41 PM
I'd like a set of 225/45-13.

EDIT - Or even a 225/45-15

Grant Galloway
09-15-2017, 04:06 PM
245/40/17 and 225/45/17

Grant Galloway
09-15-2017, 04:11 PM
So we are going to allow an R888R a tire that is classified currently an R compound to be run as a street tire, but we will penalize someone who wants to run any other R compound 5 pips??

This essentially makes everyone have to run this tire no??

Grant

nissannx
09-15-2017, 04:22 PM
225/45/15 - tire preference the R1R, RR, and RA1. Thank you!

Will the RA-1 be allowed the same privilege? Will there be any change in where the RR is classed?

Slowpoke
09-15-2017, 04:49 PM
So we are going to allow an R888R a tire that is classified currently an R compound to be run as a street tire, but we will penalize someone who wants to run any other R compound 5 pips??

This essentially makes everyone have to run this tire no??

Absolutely not! This will only be for the standard "GG" compound we receive in Canada (not the GGG or SG.) We have a good amount of experience now with both the RE-71R, RS4 and the R888R and are expecting this to just add more size options for competitors and balance performance with a longer lasting tire than the RE-71R. The uber street tires don't have as broad a range of sizes available in Canada. The R888R fills in some gaps in the small diameter and ultra wide sizes. NASA already classifies the R888 with the Uber 200TW streets.

Will the RA-1 be allowed the same privilege? Will there be any change in where the RR is classed?

Maybe, we need to discuss that more. Hence why I'm asking for RR vs Hoosier performance data from the Racing group.

scorcherjf
09-15-2017, 06:02 PM
Great change imo. Might as well allow the Nitto NT01 as well since it's supposedly the same GG compound as the R888/R888R and (from my experience as well as anecdotal data from others) post similar grip levels and wear.

It was pretty apparent that the "modern" R-comps were running rings around the older NT01/R888 such as the Hankook TD's. At least this way we can have an official "spec" street tire rather than the unofficial spec RE71R (or whatever flavor of the year cheater street tire) which only last a few days anyway.

Dave Barker
09-15-2017, 10:20 PM
So we are going to allow an R888R a tire that is classified currently an R compound to be run as a street tire, but we will penalize someone who wants to run any other R compound 5 pips??

This essentially makes everyone have to run this tire no??

Grant


A long time ago, the series had no tire rules and essentially if you didn't run Hoosiers, you couldn't win.

The classification of "street" tires vs "R" compounds vs "Premium R compounds" or Ubers as they became known, was based on the relative differences between lap times of these different tires. Certainly a lot of competitors chose to drive their cars to the track on the tires they wanted to compete on, so the tire rules effectively separating the classes by tire types and knowing we had the linear type classification system allowed anyone to compete with whatever tire they wanted.

As we all know the SCCA requirements concerning tread wear ratings have since then basically fallen apart. The Hankook RS3 which used to have a 140 UTQC rating suddenly became a 200 rated tire with no change to the actual tire itself. Now the RE 71-R, Rival S and to some extent Hankook RS4 all claim to be 200 tread wear tires but wear very much faster that most people would expect a 200 tread wear tire to wear. They also go a lot faster than expected of a 200 tread wear tire.

It is hard to get totally accurate comparisons between tires but it seems that the newer "cheater" tires are basically on par with older model 100 tread wear rated tires including the Toyo RA-1, Toyo 888 and Nitto NT01. The newer Toyo 888R may be a bit faster than these 3 but also comes in a much wider variety of sizes. Did I mention that Toyo also sponsors our series?

Personally, I support allowing special classification of the Toyo 888R tire as a street tire as it appears to be affordable, comes in a huge variety of sizes and certainly doesn't blow away the other "street" tire competition. Grant, I don't think we would consider it a "spec" tire, but I really like the fact that it comes in my sizes which none of the street cheater tires do.

BTW, Stephen, I will likely need 2 sets of 295/30-18s if the price is reasonable.

Saj5DJ
09-15-2017, 11:09 PM
RS4 wears harder than an RS3. Which wore pretty damn well. 28 hrs on our current Chumpcar set and there's about 50% left.

Actually can't thing of anything that would last longer on track. Certainly not a 'normal' non 200TW street which would melt, chunk and die.

Point's well made on the RE71s and Rival-S though. Butter.

Edit: To stay on topic. Toyo makes the wider 15's (in a reasonable overall dia: 225/45/15, 245/40/15), no? If I make it back, I'd try them out in that size (the R888R or RR). Quick glance at your top 30 finishers this season, I see 15 cars that could utilize either of the above sizes better than 205/50/15.

3wheeler
09-16-2017, 09:56 AM
Might as well give the 2018 overall trophy to Chris P. now then. :)

I think it's a bad move making a change like this when the series is in the middle of a resurgence. Even though you think you're doing the right thing, there will be people who don't think so, and it's those people you stand to lose.

The focus should be on promoting the series, not fixing something that isn't broken.

Regardless, I hope I'm proved wrong as it's nice to see OTA flourish!

S1motorsports
09-16-2017, 10:05 AM
255/40r17 for me! can we confirm this rule change 100% so I can begin to set my car up around this rule change

Grant Galloway
09-16-2017, 10:27 AM
I wouldn't consider the RS4 a cheater tire! They seem to wear like hockey pucks, I still have enough tire for next year.. But if the R888R are faster I will simply open my wallet and run them instead!

If lap times are even a half second a lap quicker people that have the resources will slap them on!

Maybe I will try the R888R on the Civic Type R for an event..

Yellow Viggen
09-16-2017, 02:14 PM
I selected 205/50/15 since this is the size of my worn RE71Rs and I'm ready to try something different. I would have selected 225/40/15 if they were listed but they weren't.
Is there a way to extend the size selection to 225/45/15 and 225/40/15?
The price would likely be much better than RS4s I'm looking at now.

Gwoody27
09-16-2017, 02:17 PM
My RE71Rs lasted a full season + in 2016 and will do so again in 2017. I accept the size restriction argument and it is great to support our long term sponsor.

Now the question is price. I was able to get my new 255/40/17; RE71Rs mounted for $975 at Tires 23. I am waiting to see what the Toyo pricing will be before switching.

Saj5DJ
09-16-2017, 05:19 PM
If there's no wider 15's available in R888R, you're running a severe chance of greatly disadvantaging the smaller cars by having the rules favor that tire.

BColeman
09-17-2017, 12:53 PM
I will be running Motomaster SE3 to secure back to back wins in the highly competitive RTC1 class.

LemonJus
09-18-2017, 11:34 AM
I run 225/45/17 fronts + 255/40/17 rears.

wparsons
09-18-2017, 12:30 PM
If there's no wider 15's available in R888R, you're running a severe chance of greatly disadvantaging the smaller cars by having the rules favor that tire.

Would this rule change actually favor the R888R's though? I haven't seen any data to suggest they're faster than RE71R's (most data I've seen show them being a bit slower).

3wheeler
09-18-2017, 01:39 PM
Would this rule change actually favor the R888R's though? I haven't seen any data to suggest they're faster than RE71R's (most data I've seen show them being a bit slower).

Here is a decent test between the RE71 and a NT01 on track. I've heard that the NT01 is the same rubber as an RA1 or an old 888..really not sure what is true. In any case, the new 888R should be faster(at least for Toyo's sake) than the NT01.

http://www.prima-racing.com/bridgestones-new-re-71r-the-new-street-tire-track-day-king-part-two/


I think Chris P. can at least tell us how much better they are than the old 888.

Maybe I shouldn't be commenting considering I am not competing... :p

Gwoody27
09-18-2017, 01:39 PM
Would this rule change actually favor the R888R's though? I haven't seen any data to suggest they're faster than RE71R's (most data I've seen show them being a bit slower).

I have good RE71Rs left and if I knew the price could buy and test R888s that we will run next year and do a back to back test at say TMP later this fall.

Let me know. I could let another driver or 2 share the car to get more impressions. Let me know what you think.

Saj5DJ
09-18-2017, 01:44 PM
Would this rule change actually favor the R888R's though? I haven't seen any data to suggest they're faster than RE71R's (most data I've seen show them being a bit slower).

I'm going off anecdotal from a few entries here but, aren't the front running street tire guys on RS4's?

It looks to me like there the real issue is that RE71R and Rival-S are too quick and too short lived to fit nicely with the other 0 point tires. Would a safer choice not be to make them +5's as opposed to making tire with unknown performance and durability (and really, couple of web articles doesn't change that) that isn't available in everyone's size a +0 when it also doesn't fit the definition of the category?

kmorris
09-18-2017, 02:54 PM
If I run these, it would be a split set of 185/60 R 13 front, 235/50 R 15 rear. With the low weight of my car, I think one set should last the season. I'm hoping to get the smaller front tires hot enough to actually wear. :)

Kevin

wparsons
09-18-2017, 03:27 PM
I'm going off anecdotal from a few entries here but, aren't the front running street tire guys on RS4's?

It looks to me like there the real issue is that RE71R and Rival-S are too quick and too short lived to fit nicely with the other 0 point tires. Would a safer choice not be to make them +5's as opposed to making tire with unknown performance and durability (and really, couple of web articles doesn't change that) that isn't available in everyone's size a +0 when it also doesn't fit the definition of the category?

I think it's a mix of RE71R and RS4, but not positive. I wasn't at enough events to say for sure. I call pull what's in the CCDB to see what was declared to see the mix though if it's worth anything.

I'm not positive, but I think NASA has put the RE71R up in points, and the R888R down.

kmorris
09-18-2017, 03:57 PM
So Mr. Slowpoke,

Are you saying that if we order tires now for spring delivery, we can get the Team Toyo registration discount by registering now for 2018? Or, would we need to pre-order now, then defer payment until spring and apply the discount then?

Or would it be better to speak to a dealer directly?

Slowpoke
09-18-2017, 04:41 PM
If I run these, it would be a split set of 195/50R15 front, 235/50ZR15 rear.

Kevin

Thanks, Kevin. This isn't a commitment to buy, and the poll lets you select multiple sizes, so go ahead and select both sizes. It just helps let Toyo know what the community purchases.

kmorris
09-18-2017, 05:35 PM
go ahead and select both sizes

Too late - already selected 'other - see below'. Is there a way to un-vote?

Chris P
09-18-2017, 05:44 PM
This is a fantastic move to support a long standing series sponsor while also recognizing a more realistic performance expectation of the R888 & R888r. :cool:

Chris P
09-18-2017, 05:54 PM
Here is a decent test between the RE71 and a NT01 on track. I've heard that the NT01 is the same rubber as an RA1 or an old 888..really not sure what is true. In any case, the new 888R should be faster(at least for Toyo's sake) than the NT01.

http://www.prima-racing.com/bridgestones-new-re-71r-the-new-street-tire-track-day-king-part-two/


I think Chris P. can at least tell us how much better they are than the old 888.

Maybe I shouldn't be commenting considering I am not competing... :p

All that I can tell you is the R888r & R888 are close enough in performance that selection of one over another is likely more dependent on driver preference, and perhaps car type. Performance and wear characteristics are pretty similar which should be expected given the same rubber compound is used. Do you like stiff sidewalls and lower complaince or soft sidewalls with more gradual progression to slip... To each their own.

Slowpoke
09-18-2017, 07:32 PM
If there's no wider 15's available in R888R, you're running a severe chance of greatly disadvantaging the smaller cars by having the rules favor that tire.

Where was your outrage when the fake 200TW streets weren't made in even STOCK Corvette or VIper sizes, but your Miata enjoyed up to +50mm width from stock in your preferred wheel diameter? :) Starting the off-season rule battles, Barry? :p

Am I one of the few who has run RE-71-R, RA1, R888, R888R and RS4? I haven't run the new Rival, but seems to be equal to a RE-71-R. What we're proposing is a fair grouping. We could also cherry-pick which Streets to move up to non-premium R, but that is splitting hairs and this is fair placement for the R888R.

If you haven't tried the R888R yet: On my car, the R888R works better than the R888 on the front end which gives more confidence in faster corners. Making a Subaru turn in to a corner isn't easy, so for my AWD car, it works noticeably better than the R888. Not two seconds a lap, but in line with Toyo's data on the tire. The asymmetric non-directional tread pattern is odd to get used to, being able to rotate LF to RR without dismounting is also a help for Ontario's all Clockwise road courses.

http://www.toyotires.ca/sites/default/files/imce/1_1.jpg

I'd like to see OTA continue be a grass-roots competitor focused organization with fair options for all competitors. That also means keeping it affordable. Time Attack series need more sponsorship than race series because we're limited in the number of competitors we can have on-track at once. We can't put 60 cars out at once and let them "sort it out".

Saj5DJ
09-18-2017, 09:08 PM
335 wide 18's aren't enough? Edit: Have a citation: http://www.bfgoodrichracing.com/streetautocross-bfgoodrich-g-force-rival-s/

And didn't I just suggest pipping the most competitive tire that could be fitted to a Miata (or, indeed the Chumpcar that would be fun to take to an event)?

C'mon Steve; try a little harder to make it look like I have an agenda here. I've seen you do better.

My observation still stands that 50% of the top 30 of your field doesn't have a choice wider than 205 that fits their car in the R888R. Dem's the facts.

Saj5DJ
09-18-2017, 09:20 PM
PS: Miata had 20mm tires wider than stock.

Feel free to hit me up if you need some tire info Steve. You seem to be a little misinformed.

max attack
09-19-2017, 09:03 AM
I'm on the fence about what I'm up too next year,need to run 225-45 or 245-40 15's though.

Seems the pole is only for 888r's though based on the sizes offered.

For a zero pip I'd be better to run a "street" tire in the size I want then stuck with a 205.

Of course I'd rather go a little quicker and have a shot at some toyo bucks so my choice would probably be a set of RR's.

Slowpoke
09-19-2017, 11:15 AM
PS: Miata had 20mm tires wider than stock. Feel free to hit me up if you need some tire info Steve. You seem to be a little misinformed.

Not at all. The NA and NB Miatas (the most popular generations in our series) are already well-serviced in both stock and wide sizes by the current sticky streets. You have options.

The 295/35/18 (or even 295/30/18) is the stock size for the C5 Vette and we have several in our series. Rival S, Rival 1.5, RE-71-R and RS4 do not offer this size. Hankook finally offered the 295/40/18 this year. I don't know for sure as I don't own a Vette, but aside from lengthening the gearing (which the Vette doesn't need in Ontario) it is not conducive to a square setup.

Barry, we're opening up the options for everyone. Snizzoop's, Tom's and your comments about the sizing will go direct to Toyo. They requested this data. Obviously, I can't promise more than that.

We are working on other sponsorships as well. Hopefully you will be happier with one of those.

Saj5DJ
09-19-2017, 12:36 PM
To clear the air a little, I do agree that:

- Toyo and their support are awesome. Continued work to keeping their support is fantastic and should be applauded.
- The 'autocross compound' super 200TW's relative pace (by which I specifically mean the Rival-S, the RE71R, the Kumho V720 and the Nexen SUR 4G) and, more importantly, wear in comparison to +5 treaded R-comps is an issue.

You're totally right, Miata has great options already. I was taking issue with the stipulation that vette's and similar don't. We don't have a rule set that enforces stock tire sizes, anything you can fit under the fender is fair game. There are Rival S choices that are proven to fit Mustangs, C5, C5Z06, C6 and C6Z06 (and have been since the autocross compound 200TW wars started in 2015). Viper comes from the factory with V720s now. So basically, playing field is pretty even there.

Only point I'm making, is that if you're making an R-comp 0 pips that only half the field can fit...Not an insurmountable issue, but it is an issue. The NT01 comes in wide 15's, the pace is known. Perhaps include it as 0 pips and make the allowance the work for everyone equally.

Or pip the autocross compound super 200's.

iamthewheelman
09-19-2017, 02:44 PM
I think the fact that this topic has sparked some conversation in the forum is good enough lol

#makeOTAgreatagain..... or what ever the cool kids do these days

max attack
09-19-2017, 06:26 PM
Steve hopefully you didn't take my comments as negative,weren't intended to be.

I am surprised the 888r isn't offered in the 225-45-15 size being the go too size for the smaller cars.

My 1st choice in a toyo will be the RR's.

Rob
09-19-2017, 11:09 PM
Yet another girly-car driver commenting....

My preferred size is 225-45-15 which is currently not availability in the 888 or the 888R. I'd happily buy a set from Toyo if they expand the line to that size.

225-45-15 is available in the venerable RA-1 - if that tire is rated at zero PiPs in 2018, that's what I'm buying - predictable, they'll easily last the whole season and they just get faster as they wear down. And sends business to our sponsor.

Dave Barker
09-20-2017, 08:24 AM
It looks to me like there the real issue is that RE71R and Rival-S are too quick and too short lived to fit nicely with the other 0 point tires. Would a safer choice not be to make them +5's as opposed to making tire with unknown performance and durability (and really, couple of web articles doesn't change that) that isn't available in everyone's size a +0 when it also doesn't fit the definition of the category?

The problem with doing this is that the baseline is constantly evolving and rather than keeping up, we will always be behind. Right now the RS4 and V720 are getting close to the RE-71R and even BFG has introduced the Rival S 1.5. in (again) limited sizes. Given the fact that the performance of the "cheater" streets and 100 tread wear R comps is now about the same they should run in the same class. It is much easier to bring the 888R down a class then constantly try to adjust for all the other tire manufacturers new upgrades.

As for my C5Z, none of the "cheater" streets fits all that well and they are all significantly more money to purchase new than 888s.

The point is, no one is suggesting that the 888R should become a spec tire and few have suggested it is significantly faster than any of the "cheater" streets, but it is available in a wider variety of sizes. If the 888R doesn't fit your car, I bet there is an RE-71R (or other 200 tread wear tire) that does. If they perform the same, they should compete against each other. Making the 888R a "street" tire by our rules is giving people more choices.

Saj5DJ
09-20-2017, 12:57 PM
The problem with doing this is that the baseline is constantly evolving and rather than keeping up, we will always be behind. Right now the RS4 and V720 are getting close to the RE-71R and even BFG has introduced the Rival S 1.5. in (again) limited sizes. Given the fact that the performance of the "cheater" streets and 100 tread wear R comps is now about the same they should run in the same class. It is much easier to bring the 888R down a class then constantly try to adjust for all the other tire manufacturers new upgrades.

As for my C5Z, none of the "cheater" streets fits all that well and they are all significantly more money to purchase new than 888s.

The point is, no one is suggesting that the 888R should become a spec tire and few have suggested it is significantly faster than any of the "cheater" streets, but it is available in a wider variety of sizes. If the 888R doesn't fit your car, I bet there is an RE-71R (or other 200 tread wear tire) that does. If they perform the same, they should compete against each other. Making the 888R a "street" tire by our rules is giving people more choices.

I'm more replying to this as a philosophical 'wanting to chat about tires' than any objection to proposal here, so please all take as such :)

The 1.5 change for the Rival S only effected the construction of the smaller 3-rib sizes to bring it more in line with the stiffness of the larger 4-ribs. Your vette sizes are unaffected and still available per the link I posted there earlier in sizes that are ideal. If I had your car, I'd have just finished my third season on them. I can promise you all the autocross competitors just have and you have the luxury they don't of running square 315/30/18s (they have to keep stock wheel width in AS and run 275/315 on C5Z06's); if you're not keeping up on this stuff... well, you're going to have a hard time being competitive.

I wouldn't say the RS4 is close in intent to the Rival-S, RE71R and V720. It lasts eons longer, is not as fast and takes heat WAY better.

Is it as quick than a R888 or NT01? Well, there's always going to be a best of breed and the street tires are the ones that are getting development resources by the tire companies. Is it faster than Hankook's own TD? Probably not. Both are treaded R-Comps. I do remember a competitor asking here for the Maxxis RC-1 to be rated as a +5 based on pace, fitment options and durability; he was shot down because 'no, that's a non treaded premium R, it's a +10". The fact it was the slowest of it's category didn't matter.

Can I spend less pips on Koni Yellow shocks vs. Penskes? After all, they're not as fast and are certainly cheaper!

Saj5DJ
09-20-2017, 01:16 PM
And honestly guys; I'm not taking shots at the series or the plans for it. When I do make it back to time attack, I wouldn't go anywhere else.

We're real fortunate to have a series like this here and all the hard work is appreciated. It get's WAY more right, IMO, than the others do.

Dave Barker
09-20-2017, 01:31 PM
Actually, I do have experience with Rivals (rather than Rival S s) and no the 315s are not ideal sizes (actually a bit wide and would require the extra 2 pips for sticking out beyond the fender more than 13 mm). My personal experience is that even the plain Rival doesn't handle the heat that well and found that consistently the performance dropped off by the third lap of competition AND they heat cycled out. Then to top things off, after stating they would continue to produce Rivals, BFG stopped making them. I think the Rival S is unlikely to last a lot longer on my car and again would prove to be much more expensive than the 888R

Saj5DJ
09-20-2017, 01:46 PM
275/315 it is then, nice to have options :)

FWIW, I hated the original Rival, driving dynamics wise it's a completely different tire.

You're 100% right on longevity though. Would likely need two sets a season :(

Lloyd_
09-20-2017, 05:32 PM
275/315 it is then, nice to have options :)

FWIW, I hated the original Rival, driving dynamics wise it's a completely different tire.

You're 100% right on longevity though. Would likely need two sets a season :(

The Rival and Rival-S feel like completely different tires to me. I would love to talk to an engineer at Michelin to understand what they really changed.

I think it's plausible that a single set of Rival-S could do a competitive OTA season. I don't know if the RE-71R would make it, and the R888 would need at least 2 sets due to heat cycles, not tread wear.

Alribb
09-20-2017, 06:47 PM
I'm also looking for 225/45/15.

Dave Barker
09-20-2017, 11:01 PM
The Rival and Rival-S feel like completely different tires to me. I would love to talk to an engineer at Michelin to understand what they really changed.

I think it's plausible that a single set of Rival-S could do a competitive OTA season. I don't know if the RE-71R would make it, and the R888 would need at least 2 sets due to heat cycles, not tread wear.


The internet scuttlebutt (how about that for an old timer's phrase) is that the 285 RE-71R lasts for 4 hours of track use on a Corvette. That is enough for possibly 3 whole days!! Doubt the Rival S is a ton better. Also a 275/315 setup can get REALLY expensive (no tire rotation) and is likely going to understeer like a pig. Besides it is so "2 year old" technology.

Agree the 888R may well require 2 sets to be competitive, just like the other "cheater" streets.

OTOH, it would be nice to try RS4s in the 285/35-18s although they are a bit tall. At least they are more affordable.

Nice to have more choices.

Saj5DJ
09-21-2017, 09:48 AM
Think you'll find, in practice, that 275 Rival S and 285 RS4 will have near zero difference in treadwidth if square setup with no pips is the primary desire. The BFG's run a little wider than the 'kooks. Like you say, options for sure.

egroenke
09-21-2017, 10:24 AM
Where was your outrage when the fake 200TW streets weren't made in even STOCK Corvette or VIper sizes, but your Miata enjoyed up to +50mm width from stock in your preferred wheel diameter? :) Starting the off-season rule battles, Barry? :p

Am I one of the few who has run RE-71-R, RA1, R888, R888R and RS4? I haven't run the new Rival, but seems to be equal to a RE-71-R. What we're proposing is a fair grouping. We could also cherry-pick which Streets to move up to non-premium R, but that is splitting hairs and this is fair placement for the R888R.

If you haven't tried the R888R yet: On my car, the R888R works better than the R888 on the front end which gives more confidence in faster corners. Making a Subaru turn in to a corner isn't easy, so for my AWD car, it works noticeably better than the R888. Not two seconds a lap, but in line with Toyo's data on the tire. The asymmetric non-directional tread pattern is odd to get used to, being able to rotate LF to RR without dismounting is also a help for Ontario's all Clockwise road courses.

http://www.toyotires.ca/sites/default/files/imce/1_1.jpg

I'd like to see OTA continue be a grass-roots competitor focused organization with fair options for all competitors. That also means keeping it affordable. Time Attack series need more sponsorship than race series because we're limited in the number of competitors we can have on-track at once. We can't put 60 cars out at once and let them "sort it out".


Steve, I've also run many of the combo's you have and I have data at least on my car that the R888R's in our GG compound are about on par with the RE71Rs in term of lap times at the DDT. The R888R's will have slighly better wear and last longer before going off in a session. I concur about the front end comment between R888 and the R's as well.

I'm very much in support of what you noted here and hope my work schedule doesn't preclude be from competing next year. Data talks and we all know TW #'s are BS

Greg Campbell
09-21-2017, 02:21 PM
The internet scuttlebutt (how about that for an old timer's phrase) is that the 285 RE-71R lasts for 4 hours of track use on a Corvette. ...

Anecdotal evidence, one data point only: I had RE-71s on my car at the end of the 2015 season. Did the shootout, two lapping days and maybe 2,000 street Km on them. Zero wear; and I mean no wear.

I think the perception of RE-71 wear rates is skewed by the tires' initial wear rates; they can go through the first 50% of tread depth rather quickly, slowing down after the excess tread depth is worn off.

IWannaGoFast
09-21-2017, 02:46 PM
Anecdotal evidence, one data point only: I had RE-71s on my car at the end of the 2015 season. Did the shootout, two lapping days and maybe 2,000 street Km on them. Zero wear; and I mean no wear.

I think the perception of RE-71 wear rates is skewed by the tires' initial wear rates; they can go through the first 50% of tread depth rather quickly, slowing down after the excess tread depth is worn off.

I had a totally different experience with the RE-71s, went through two sets in 2016, both sets down to the cords by the 4th day of use, approx. 4 total on track hours on each set.

Tried the RS4s for 2017, they aren’t as fast as the RE-71s as they can’t seem to maintain the same mid corner grip levels, but after 4 OTA events and one lapping day I probably still have approx. 75% of the original tread depth left.

Greg Campbell
09-21-2017, 03:33 PM
I had a totally different experience with the RE-71s, went through two sets in 2016, both sets down to the cords by the 4th day of use, approx. 4 total on track hours on each set.

I do remember that. To be fair there is a huge difference in contact patch (275/285 vs 255), suspension design (double wishbone vs. McPh Strut and Trailing Arm) for two cars with roughly the same weight (3100-3200 lbs).

My track time was also at the DDT which is super smooth asphalt vs. Shannonville sandpaper.

Slowpoke
09-22-2017, 02:13 AM
Anecdotal evidence, one data point only: I had RE-71s on my car at the end of the 2015 season. Did the shootout, two lapping days and maybe 2,000 street Km on them. Zero wear; and I mean no wear.

I think the perception of RE-71 wear rates is skewed by the tires' initial wear rates; they can go through the first 50% of tread depth rather quickly, slowing down after the excess tread depth is worn off.

After running the first Ontario 1500 on AD08R's and using that set for a year + testing the next year, the second year we had eight (8) RE-71-R's in 285/35/18. First tire died after 1.5 days at Calabogie Time Attack / one Autoslalom. At the end of the year, six were dead, two were marginal. YMMV

Brutus
09-23-2017, 10:53 AM
Ontario Time Attack is pleased to announce that we are opening up options for "Street Tire" equipped cars in 2018 by allowing the Toyo R-888-R to be used as a Zero-PIP option next year. Toyo Canada places it's 2018 R-Compound order the first week of October so this poll will be to help them know what sizes we will need.

If you want to be sure that you'll have the size you need, you can place your order now with Braidan Tire or other club preferred TOYO MOTORSPORTS DEALERS for spring delivery. OTA competitors can get up to 40% off your purchase by registering for Team Toyo at http://www.toyotires.ca/racing-program.

Please select one of the first three options, and your preferred tire size.

Stephen Deneka

It sounds to me like a decision that effects all competitors has already been made and now we're being asked to place an order for our tires.

It's not that I disagree that coming up with a potential solution to create what is believed to provide a leveler playing field, it appears that an unofficial 'spec' tire has been announced or maybe not announced. Which is it?

If we could all run the same spec tire it simplifies one more preparation decision, assuming sufficient tire size and inventory to cover all returning competitors.

Hopefully these new OTA rules do not limit where a competitor can purchase their tires. I don't believe we should be allowing any corporate sponsor to dictate which independent retailer we purchase their product from.

Now as for the size requirement survey, it would be good if we could indicate how many tires of a specific size that we intend to use in 2018.

PS: I got a chuckle out of comments referring to how tires weren't restricted in the ''old day". Tire discussions and restrictions have been a hot topic since hill-climbs of the early 60's. Every 5 to 10 years the topic surfaces again.

John P
09-23-2017, 03:04 PM
I get about 1.5 seasons on RE71R vs 2 seasons on R-S3, before cording. I hope the 888, 888R aren't the spec tire for 2018, since two sets of tires per season would discourage me from competing.

OTA has been using 5 PIPs between tire classes, but we could use some other figure such as + 2.5 PIPs for the 888, 888R, RE-71R, etc (e.g. Street Premium?). This would recognize that the new street tires are similar to some R compound tires, and also help Toyo the sponsor sell more tires.

JohnP

Saj5DJ
09-23-2017, 08:02 PM
OTA has been using 5 PIPs between tire classes, but we could use some other figure such as + 2.5 PIPs for the 888, 888R, RE-71R, etc (e.g. Street Premium?). This would recognize that the new street tires are similar to some R compound tires, and also help Toyo the sponsor sell more tires.

JohnP

Nice idea.

Lloyd_
09-23-2017, 10:31 PM
The internet scuttlebutt (how about that for an old timer's phrase) is that the 285 RE-71R lasts for 4 hours of track use on a Corvette. That is enough for possibly 3 whole days!! Doubt the Rival S is a ton better.

As it turns out, 33% better (4 days...plus a bit of autocross). Pretty scary cost per day.

They're at least fast as a R888's magic second heat cycle all the way to those cords though :eek:

Greg Campbell
09-24-2017, 07:55 AM
As it turns out, 33% better (4 days...plus a bit of autocross). Pretty scary cost per day.

They're at least fast as a R888's magic second heat cycle all the way to those cords though :eek:

How much camber are you running? Wear looks to be pretty imbalanced.

Grant Galloway
09-24-2017, 07:56 AM
Looks like I will be on RE71R cheater tires for next year! Was looking to run Hankook TDs as an R compound and take the pips but can't get TD's in Canada, at least not easily.

$880 taxes in 245/40/17 and 225/45/17 my pricing on the RE71R I will likely roast a few sets of fronts!!!!

Grant

Brutus
09-24-2017, 04:05 PM
Hello again,

I've had a chance to think a bit more about the proposed changes to the existing OTA tire rule and wanted to express my view.

First off, my proposed rule change is based upon the assumption that the reasoning behind changing the existing rules are for the sole purpose of attempting to more fairly equalize the performance difference between some of the so called 'cheater Street Tires' and the Non-Premium R-compound tires.

Here is my proposal:

Current OTA Regulation:

.1 Installation of Street legal tires with a tread wear rating (UTQG) of 140 or higher. 0 PIPs

.2 Installation of “non-Premium” R compound tires, defined as DOT legal tires with a UTQG tread wear rating of less than 100 and that have a molded tread pattern with non-circumferential siping. 5PIPs

.3 Installation of “Premium” race compound tires, defined as tires that only have circumferential molded grooves but also includes Continental Canadian Touring Car Championship (CCTC), Hoosier Grand Am Cup, foreign market Yokohama A048R and all full wet weather race tires. 10 PIPs

.4 Installation of Race Slicks 15 PIPs

Proposal - Option 1:

.1 Installation of DOT Street legal tires with a tread wear rating (UTQG) of 100 or higher. 0 PIPs

.2 Installation of “non-Premium” R compound tires, defined as DOT legal competition tires with a UTQG tread wear rating of less than 100 and that have a molded tread pattern with non-circumferential siping. 5PIPs

.3 Installation of “Premium” race compound tires, defined as tires that only have circumferential molded grooves but also includes Continental Canadian Touring Car Championship (CCTC), Hoosier Grand Am Cup, foreign market Yokohama A048R and all full wet weather race tires. 10 PIPs

.4 Installation of Race Slicks 15 PIPs

Proposal - Option 2:

.1 Installation of a DOT Street legal tire, including “non-Premium” R compound tires, defined as DOT legal competition tires that have a molded tread pattern with non-circumferential siping. 0 PIPs

.2 Installation of “Premium” race compound tires, defined as tires that only have circumferential molded grooves but also includes Continental Canadian Touring Car Championship (CCTC), Hoosier Grand Am
Cup, foreign market Yokohama A048R and all full wet weather race tires. 5 PIPs

.3 Installation of Race Slicks 10 PIPs

While both proposals would essentially achieve the equalizing results, Option 1 would only change the classification of competitors running tires with a UTQG tread wear rating of 100 to 139. It would move those competitors down one class.

This change may create a sales opportunity for tire brands that have a UTQG tread wear rating of 100 to 139.

In both options, the rules still allow competitors to chose their own brand of tire.

Slowpoke
09-24-2017, 06:23 PM
It sounds to me like a decision that effects all competitors has already been made and now we're being asked to place an order for our tires.

Yes a decision has been made, no to the latter. All three clubs that run OTA were in favour of the R888R rule change, and that comes along with our first sponsorship contract for 2018.

The poll is a market survey. A long time sponsor wants to know what size tires our competitors use. Canada is a small market and no one likes buying two year old competition tires regardless of them being stored in a temperature controlled warehouse. Ideal for them is that they run out of every size they bring in a the end of the competition year and the market has zero demand until spring. That's near impossible, but that's their target. So they asked for a poll of what sizes people use. There isn't much, if any, exchange of inventory between the U.S. and Canada. (My guess, they don't like paying import duties twice since it's a competitively priced market.)

It's not that I disagree that coming up with a potential solution to create what is believed to provide a leveler playing field, it appears that an unofficial 'spec' tire has been announced or maybe not announced. Which is it?

You have another option to purchase for street tire class that . That's the opposite of a spec tire.

Hopefully these new OTA rules do not limit where a competitor can purchase their tires. I don't believe we should be allowing any corporate sponsor to dictate which independent retailer we purchase their product from.

The rules do not say which vendor you have to use. Participation in a Contingency benefit program may require you to purchase from a Canadian vendor. For example, Toyo USA gives this series nothing, so Toyo Tires Canada is not going to give you a free set of tires at the end of the year if your preferred vendor is Tire Rack.

Braidan Tire offers some coupons for purchase at their store, but they won't give you money to buy products that they sell from their competitors instead of them.

Make sense? Agreeable I hope.

Now as for the size requirement survey, it would be good if we could indicate how many tires of a specific size that we intend to use in 2018.

Go ahead. That's what this thread is for.

Lloyd_
09-26-2017, 07:37 PM
How much camber are you running? Wear looks to be pretty imbalanced.

Something like 2.2F/1.3R.

It's not quite as uneven as you might think from the photo. But they do seem to like to wear the shoulders.

Slowpoke
09-26-2017, 09:10 PM
Something like 2.2F/1.3R.

It's not quite as uneven as you might think from the photo. But they do seem to like to wear the shoulders.

Sure that isn't fender rub? Pretty localized.

Lloyd_
09-28-2017, 02:32 AM
Sure that isn't fender rub? Pretty localized.

There is a bit of rub on the front when using a lot of lock while autocrossing (both on the fenderwell behind the headlight, and maybe a bit on the fender). But nothing that seemed to do much damage.

I think this is mostly the result of the tire disintegrating (rather than wearing through). Rotate it 180 degrees and it isn't corded on that side. *shrug*

wparsons
09-28-2017, 10:46 AM
Looks like I will be on RE71R cheater tires for next year! Was looking to run Hankook TDs as an R compound and take the pips but can't get TD's in Canada, at least not easily.

Can Will @ PointZero get them? I know at one time he had piles of them.

Gary
10-03-2017, 11:23 AM
Is there a typo in the tire size grid? 195/50 R16 is grouped with the 14 inch wheel sizes. In any event, I do know that a set of the largest available 14 inch size will get ordered in the spring.

Silex326
10-19-2017, 12:50 AM
205/50/15's

As a new comer to Time Attack i was a little confused as to what was actually classed as a "street tire" in picking out my choices i ended up going with Dunlop's Direzza DZ102 that had a 460 TW ...after the first event i found out the hard way 4 stale donuts from krispy kreme would have done just as well ... :rolleyes: .

I would be very interested in seeing what kind of improvment some Toyo's would make.