Track Car Suggestions

[Black Vdub]

So this winter I want to build a track car but I can't seem to decide on which car... Any suggestions as to cars that are great on the track once they have the proper race suspension, brakes, etc...

I love VWdubs but I have heard they are all dogs on the track except for the MKII... So bring on your opions and reasons to support them.

Thanks ahead of time.

[Dave]

First of all, it's way cheaper to buy somebody elses built race car than to build one yourself. If you're interested in a VW and don't mind driving to the U.S. to get one, check out the Classified section on www.improvedtouring.com Tons of VW race cars in that series and lots of them should be for sale on their message board.

Golfs can be turned into very capable track cars. The late 80's and early 90's ones seem to have more speed potential since they're a lot lighter and you therefore don't need as much power to go fast. Lightness is absolutely your friend when building a race car.

I'm very happy with my choice of a 93 Honda Civic hatchback. It's very light (around 2100 lbs) and has virtually unlimited aftermarket support. As a further bonus, all the Integra Type R stuff, including the drivetrain like I have in my car, bolts right up. It's a very versatile and affordable chassis, has excellent suspension geometry, and has proven itself as a very competitive track car. You can also fit a lot of rubber (225/50-15's) in the wheel wells relative to its curb weight.

DC2 Integras (1994 to 2001 body style) are also getting cheaper as time passes, so this could be another good choice. Same unlimited aftermarket support, same excellent suspension geometry, longer wheel base than the Civic which seems to make it more stable in high speed corners, and perhaps an areodynamic advantage and weight distribution advantage over the Civic.

I would also seriously consider a Mazda Miata. You'd have to add a Solo 1 legal roll bar, but since you're talking race car I doubt that'll be an issue for you. These cars are amazingly strong and reliable, handle fantastically well right out of the box, and have very well developed race parts that are widely available due to the Spec Miata series in the U.S. You could probably find a used Spec Miata for sale somewhere in the States for a very fair price and save yourself a lot of time and $. Awesome little track cars, to be sure. RWD is good.

Another good RWD option is a BMW E30 or E36 3-series. There's a few guys who use these for Solo 1 purposes and a few others using them for regional road racing, all with good results. Christian won the overall Solo 1 championship a few years ago in his E36 328is. These seem to be very strong (unless you bounce them off the curbs a few too many times, eh Chris?) and excellent handling cars with reliable powertrains that make a very nice broad and useable horsepower and torque. These are more expensive to get into though.

Adam has proven that the 240SX is another good and very affordable (unless you turbocharge it) RWD track car option. These seem to have excellent suspensions, lots of power potential if you swap in a SR20DET or just massage the stock KA24 truck engine, and are quite light and slippery in shape. Earlier ones (S13 chassis) can be picked up cheap (say $2k or even less, though to find a nice rust-free one expect to pay more).

If you like big horsepower and detroit iron, I'd take a look at a 97+ Camaro or even (gasp!) a fox-body Mustang. Both can be made into seriously fast track cars with the right suspension work. Dave Barker has certainly proven that with minimal mods the Camaro is a very competitive platform and Chris Atkins Mustang is extremely well prepped and darn quick when he's not organizing ;) And hey, a C4 Corvette is a darn quick machine with the right mods and can be had for very reasonable dollars these days. Bigger wheels and tires are more expensive though, and heavier cars eat more brake pads too. So keep that in mind when choosing your track car.

For turbo giggles, I'd look at a second gen RX-7 Turbo II like James has, or a MR-2 turbo like Taylor has. Both have tons of go-fast potential, but are more complicated machines to sort out.

[Carguy]

Since Dave already said it all :p , I will summarize what I would look for:

1) Already race prepped or very cheap stock car
2) Light weight, rigid and rust-free chassis
3) Good after market support
4) Good suspension geometry in stock form
5) Engine swap/upgrade potential

[ScotcH]

Check this out:

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37834&highlight=nissan

[Black Vdub]

Thanks I will check out those sites. Anyone else with info or opinions feel free to write them down.

Marc

[nowcritical]

I am running a 2000 Miata this year for solo1. I can tell you that it is a lot of fun to drive and a blast to bring to the track. There is nothing better then going fast around corners in a rear wheel drive car and the sky above you.

The current Miata is also my street car. I am tossing the idea around for getting a track car for next year. I would love to run a Miata again but need to find one for a reasonable price.

Pros

Very easy on brakes
Even better when you get any aftermarket brake kit. Good win Racing, Jackson racing, flyin Miata all make kits that will easily last a weekend with no fade. The last kit I ran was the Jason racing kit, basically a set of steels lines, slotted rotors and good pads (EB Green stuff a low dust street pad that works very well at the track for me). I could get 3 to 4 solo1 events and a couple lapping days on a set of pads.
I currently run the good-win-racing brake kit that is awesome. The car stops, I can easily outbreak the rubber on the car so it is a little more tricky to drive but the car stops!


Very light car with lots of after market support and a strong racing community in the US.
Strong engine that works however is a little short on power. The Miata was more about balance then pure speed and horse power but there is a lot of after market engine upgrades from mild to seriously wild.

Cons

Space. You need a small and light trailer to hall things around
The drag coefficient with the top down is equivalent of a bus!
The gearing is setup for cursing at around 120K vs speed. The car will run out of revs very quickly

This is my quick 2 cents. Feel free to drop me a line if you want more info

[Moose]

Here is a preped race-ready CRX ... local and CHEAP at $4800

http://racing.kos.net/soloforums/showthread.php?threadid=3388

With this bad-boy you can join HADA posse ;)

Good luck on your hunt

Moose

[George]

There was a Player's Camaro that someone on here was trying to sell - might still be available. The car was in Stouffville I think.

Looked like a good deal - fresh engine etc all for less than 10K as I recall - would have bought it myself if I hadn't sunk so much money into my own car lately.

[Black Vdub]

There are several BMWs in the US that are for sale with an unbelievable amount of extra gear.

Marc

[Moose]

Here is a couple of sites tha list Race cars FS





SCCA (http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi)

Improved Touring (http://www.improvedtouring.com/)

Race Cars (http://www.racecarsdirect.com/default.asp)

Good Luck

Moose

[Black Vdub]

Thanks Moose!!! See you tomorrow!

[Dave Barker]

Big advantages of Detroit iron are

1 Rear wheel drive

2 Cheap, ( my front rotors cost $36 CDN) with lots of aftermarket support

3 Engines are powerful and quite reliable in stock form. ( I know I am jinxing myself by even saying this, but I have never been stranded at the track due to engine problems in either my Camaro or Mustang)

4 Rear wheel drive

5 Both Camaros and Mustangs have VERY unsophsticated rear suspensions which mean YOU have to learn lots to drive 'em. More of a challenge than those forgiving BMWs. Lets face it, if all you want is great handling then get a shifter kart. Detroit iron definitely does NOT handle like lighter cars

6 If you have hatchbacks ( Ford or GM )you can likely fit everything you need including rims and tires in the car to get to the track. Don't need to drive on race tires or haul a trailer. Kind of self sufficient.

7 Rear wheel drive.

8 The cars have enough power and don't handle all that well so that there are more braking zones and more corners on any given race track.

9 Rear wheel drive. (Did I already mention that?)

Disadvantages

1 Brakes ( due to more wgt)

2 Brakes ( due to higher straight line speeds)

3 People thinking you drive a dinosaur just because you don't have traction control to turn off of a turbo boost knob. ( Got to get me one of those)

4 Brakes ( Due to crappier handling)

A lot of Solo 1 tracks are hard on brakes ( especially Dunnville) but at $36 per rotor it isn't necessarily going to break(pun) the bank and although race pads are expensive they do last quite well.

[Black Vdub]

So... rear wheel.. rear wheel... I agree. Should I buy a track car it will be rear weel drive.

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Black Vdub
So... rear wheel.. rear wheel... I agree. Should I buy a track car it will be rear weel drive.

I have a slightly dented BMW I could sell you ... cheap (needs new windshield)!

:D

oh ... wait ... :(

[Black Vdub]

Good one... It is truely a bummer... Be happy that you are in one piece. Makes me want to get a cage ASAP.

[Carguy]

Originally posted by ScotcH
I have a slightly dented BMW I could sell you ... cheap (needs new windshield)!

:D

oh ... wait ... :(

Arek you're ad should include: "needs work". :D

[RRRex]

Winning is easy. Just follow these 2 simple steps:

1) buy a honda (I'm partial to the CRX)
2) join Hada.

It's cheap and it should pretty much assure you a top finish. Any other car choice and chances are you'll be beat by a honda driven by a Hada member.

Hehe.
:)

[Moose]

Dave Barker is VERY biased about RWD ... Kinda like the Miata boys :)

It is not about the Drive wheels ... but about the Cars Setup

Dave Pratte and Hanif have proven ... to expence of some well driven RWD (and FWD) drive cars that FWD is NOT a handicap ... Honda's in general have a very advanced (Double Wishbone) Indepenant suspension ... a setup that responds very well to tunning ...

So I would not nessessarily disregard FWD cars ... as there is a number of good options ... Honda or otherwise ...

Cheers

Moose

[Black Vdub]

Thanks Moose... I appreciate it... So many choices!!

[Carguy]

Good points Moose. I'd like to add that I think it comes down to a matter of preference. If your driving style/experience makes you lean toward RWD then go for it. I honestly believe that an advantage can be gained by driving a car that responds well to your driving style and the vehicle handling techniques you've learned - FWD or RWD. If you're comfortable and confident with RWD over FWD then stick with that. While I learned to drive with RWD cars, I have all my race experience with a FWD car (and Honda/Acura products at that). At this point I don't think I'd be comfortable re-learning how to drive RWD at the track.

Finally, I've worked on Japanese cars (Honda) and I've gotten to know their strengths and weaknesses. Also, I'm comfortable wrenching them and the after market support is massive (which means I can tune it just the way I want it). At this point I have enough acquired Honda knowledge and just don't want to turn my back on that investment in time (and money) to learn the quirks of a different make - Japanese, German or North American. The choice for me is easy - Honda all the way! :cool:

Cheers!

[rpr]

A couple of 91 Civic hatches were putting the scare into the Corvettes on Sunday...Adam, maybe you should try one of those... :)

[Dave]

I've spent a fair bit of time racing in both FWD and RWD cars and they are quite different experiences, both fun in their own ways.

FWD is somewhat counter-intuitive in some ways in that when the car starts to oversteer you need to stomp on the gas pedal to "pull" you out of it when most people's reaction to losing rear grip would be to lift off the throttle (which in the case of a FWD car will cause even more oversteer). FWD is, however, generally a safer and easier to control drivetrain configuration in that FWD cars tend to understeer before they oversteer, which really helps prevent any big offs in most cases. You really have to go to aggressive spring rates and/or swaybars to get oversteer out of a FWD car in most cases. Once you adjust to the "backwards" FWD reality, you can lift the throttle in the corner as a way of getting the car to rotate and then stomp on the gas to pull you out in the direction you want to go. This can be a very effective, fun, and fast way to get around a track.

RWD, on the other hand, feels more natural (at least to me) in that you can steer with the throttle in what I would consider a more intuitive way, meaning more gas will create oversteer in a corner and less will help control it (as will counter-steering). There is a real advantage to RWD in that you can steer the car from both ends, the rear with the throttle and the front with the steering wheel. This makes it a more dynamic driving experience in some ways, though I very much enjoy the dynamics of lift throttle rotation with a FWD car too.

At the end of the day, like Carguy suggests, it's up to you to decide what you think will be the most fun, best suited to your budget and driving style, and most importantly what you'll look coolest in :)

[Taylor]

Hrm... I wonder if Dave's findings are the result of driving High-Horsepower and Torque RWD (generally the rule) cars vs Low Horsepower and Torque FWD cars (also generally the rule).

With the S2K and my MR2.. if you lift in a corner, it's coming around. Of course more gas can do it too, where as in FWD, I've never known that to be true (with the gas.. not with the lifting part).

[Dave]

Taylor, yeah you're right...my RWD experience is in Camaros and Corvettes. I would guess the lift throttle oversteer in your MR2 is mid-engine related (more rear weight bias?) and the S2K does seem to have the reputation of being twitchy at the limit but I've never heard of the lift throttle issue before (maybe that's a Solo 2 thing, where the car transitions from understeer to oversteer rapidly if you cut power to the rear wheels?). RWD cars can certainly suffer from understeer if you go in too hot and I could see how lifting the throttle in this case may induce rotation, but if you stayed off the throttle eventually you'd lose enough momentum that the oversteer would stop, no? Plus you can control and even use the oversteer to your advantage with some careful throttle use in a RWD car in a scenario like this. It's all about the super drifto action!

[Moose]

The one thing I have found to be critical for a good handling FWD car beyond a well sorted Coil-over setup is a LSD equiped transmision .... THAT allows you to maximise the power that you are putting to the ground ...and allows you to get on the throttle earlier and harder than would normally be possible with an open diff.


In RWD cars it really helps ..in FWD cars it is critical


Moose

[wpfri]

As a business that destroys cars with total abuse to see how our products perform I can tell you Honda products by far are the Best Period.
I have personally owned a pile of Corvettes including a Z06.Mustangs and GM F body line of various years.Several Porsches,928s,911's,944s of every year including turbos and 993s and two Ferrari"s,one 308 and a 348.

I say abuse because these cars are driven in most cases 1 to 2 thousand kms yearly (Racing kms).They sit for the rest of the year.

Every Honda product I have ever owned just sits there and is waiting to be abused.No fuss ever.I mean change the oils,filters,belts(timing belt yearly regardless of kms),plugs and a general check and off you go.

Not so with the other cars mentioned.Always something,Always drama of some sort.If you are driving to the track and then want to go home.Honda for sure.

As for driving styles.FWD is the most forgiving and with tweeking on a double wishbone suspension.(Copied Lotus)can out handle any rear wheel drive car.Don't listen to the RWD guys, they are biased.Now I am not a expert driver,BUT I have owned a pile of cars and the 88 and up Civic,Crx,DelSol until 98 before they got rid of the double wishbone are the best cars on the planet.

If you want to go to the track and race all day for the entire summer and have fun and not sit around because of car problems.
Honda,Honda.

If you are going brand new.The Toyota Echo is the ticket.I am involved with the series.These cars are driven to the track,raced and then drive home.No drama,No fuss.

For what it is worth this is my .02 cents worth.

Krispy's exceptional driving abilities on a torsion bared Honda proves It all folks.54s. Incredible!

William

[Black Vdub]

Everyone has an opinion... This is great. I guess it can really be based on what I can pick up used... RWD or FWD... I have driven both and enjoy both.

Marc

[RacerRick]

Buy a already completed and sorted car if you can, no matter what the make.

It takes far too much time to build em!

[Black Vdub]

I hear you on that one... For my first one I am certainly taking everyones advice and getting an already built track car.

Marc

[wpfri]

There is a wicked CRX for cheap for sale already done!4,800 dollars.Perry has a fully done GM players car for about 8,000 bucks.Everything is spanking brand new including paint and tires.

905-415-1455.

William

[Chris P]

Hehehe, thanks for the props Bill. :o

If i were to choose a car to race in SOLO 1 i think i would go RWD Out of all the cars i've driven they always make me smile the most.


Rob Magro's super 7 was an abosule blast! Adam's 240 is loads of fun too!

Then again this is the 5th season i've raced my CRX and i haven't had a single terminal mechanical failure.......pretty incredible track record!! (knock on wood) How long it continues i'm not sure, my motor is starting to consume alot of oil, then again that block has nearly 400,00km's on it. I tend to put about 10,000km's on my car every summer, it really doesn't owe me anything.

[RRRex]

My 90 CRX DX has been really good. It's got 238,000K on it. Still original clutch. Doesn't burn very much oil. Think I added 1/2 a litre over the weekend. Only been towed once when the dizzy went on my way to a meeting. Had it for 5 years. Paid 2200 for it and put over 70K on it without any serious repairs. And I really beat on that thing every chance I get. Seems to thrive on neglect and abuse. Think all I've done so far is an axel, dizzy and a rad. It doesn't owe me anything. I feel like I owe it something though.

[John P]

Miles

Maybe you can work out a deal with Raj for a body job on the Rex.

[andrew1984]

hmmm.. honda... handling... hmmmmm... must fight... must keep ground.. double wishbone.. noooo....

vw = :(

[Black Vdub]

I know you guys love Hondas and it seems like they are the car to have for FWD... I guess I like to be a little different, try something new... Maybe an M3 would be cool

[Dave]

E30 M3 = :)

[Moose]

Originally posted by Black Vdub
I know you guys love Hondas and it seems like they are the car to have for FWD... I guess I like to be a little different, try something new... Maybe an M3 would be cool


Ohhh Yeah !!!!! the E30 M3 is DEAD SEXY !!!! ...

Damn good car right out of the box ... and with some minor tweeks to the Brakes and suspension you will have a very sweet car.

Good Luck

Moose

[Black Vdub]

Just saw one posted for sale.. Now I need to scrap some cash together... Funny how money always gets in the way.

Marc

[andrew1984]

go vdub! :)

[Black Vdub]

I have a VW right now... 03 MKIV but it is not a good track car based on what I have read on VW Vortex and discussions I have had with other people. As well, it weighs a ton and pushes like crazy... I will keep it as my street car but I need something a little more competitive for the track.

Marc

[John P]

Marc

Have you tried running the VW without that big front bar (run stock or no bar to see if you can eliminate the push)?

[Black Vdub]

I have not... Good suggestion though. I have been working to make the backend a little tighter so that it comes around a little easier. That should help with the push too.

Marc

[max attack]

I might be a little bias but I'd buy an '88 crx with b16(190ish hp) power lsd trans and very capable suspension mods,fully stripped with cage that weighs 1990lbs race ready.
Oh yeah mines for sale-you WILL not go faster for less!.

Best part-hows $4800 sound?(all components are NEW,ran outa cash so its gotta go)