Road Racing Task Force Pt II

[karlt]

I thought I'd start a new thread, because I think my comments are going to throw the original thread off its direction.

My post has to do with the structure of the CASC and its member clubs. As a sanctioning body, the CASC uses is member clubs (like BARC, of which I am a member) to run its events. I'm sure there is a long-standing history of regional racing that requires this.

But it makes no sense. (I'm sorry.)

If I look at Club Racing series that are successful, I see a sanctioning body that also has control over its events. The most successful single-marque racing series in North America is run by the Porsche Club, and as a member of that group I have a solid understanding of the way they run events. The recent PCA event at Mosport had 78 cars in their sprint event at 63 in their 1.5 hour enduro (results at http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/2004_results/index.htm).

To me that means there are 78(!) cars available in our immediate area that are interested in racing, just among the 1000-odd members of the Porsche Club of Upper Canada (Ontario).

The BMW Club also runs a successful series.

Both Clubs organize and support races without the sub-clubs that make up the CASC events. I apologize in advance, but I'm not a long-time member of any regional club (I joined BARC because they run the Molson Indy, and will probably switch to BMW next year as I have a membership with them too and might as well save the $60).

Radical notion: all of the individual clubs should be scrapped. They should all become a part of the CASC, and work together to run the 10 to 12 regional events, plus the "pro" races under one banner. The PCA is over 1,000 members strong because we have a large geographical area, and are not broken down into North Toronto, and Oakville. As such, UCR is one of the largest regions in PCA and have pull well beyond our borders.

The same could be true of CASC. Theres' no doubt that some regional events make a lot of money, while others languish. It's no secret (and PLEASE, let's get over it) that Shannonville events are undersubscribed. How did we fix that at UCR? We invited to instructors a free ride, waiving their registration fees if they came to Shannonville. That's a big difference from Mosport, where (until recently) instructors paid the same as students.

The point is that if we ran the whole season under one banner (CASC), we would be able to take the profits from Mosport events and apply them towards Shannonville events. The same could apply when Calabogie comes on stream. There would be the opportunity to hand out prize money at undersubscribed events to bolster attendance (if I recall Mike Mori did just that of his own accord two years ago at Shannonville).

In my opinion, the relationship between CASC and the regional Clubs should be re-jigged with the goal to have one organizing and sanctioning body take care of regional racing in Ontario.

I'm sure there are a bunch of reasons why people don't want this to happen. The question is, are they valid, or just getting in the way of progressing our sport?

As ever, my $0.02.

Karl T

[de Jager]

Hmmm....you know...Karl makes a very good point here. The active clubs are hosting 1-2 events per year and are having trouble staying afloat. There has been a lot of talk about only holding 6 events each year to increase grid sizes and I think that isn't the answer. If this occurs, I will likely only be able to attend 2-3 events. For me, work (and life) tend to get in the way without notice and I know that I am not the only one with this problem.

If we had CASC host all the events, we might be better off as profits from weekend might be able to off set the losses from another. Neither Karl or I mean this as a slap in the face to those who give up so much to run the show in each club, however, those same people can also (and should) assist CASC, should such a concept actually happen.

[CCCargirl]

Originally posted by karlt





Radical notion: all of the individual clubs should be scrapped. They should all become a part of the CASC, and work together to run the 10 to 12 regional events, plus the "pro" races under one banner.

In my opinion, the relationship between CASC and the regional Clubs should be re-jigged with the goal to have one organizing and sanctioning body take care of regional racing in Ontario.

I'm sure there are a bunch of reasons why people don't want this to happen. The question is, are they valid, or just getting in the way of progressing our sport?

Karl T


Define: 'our sport'. CASC-OR does not just consist of a few Regional Race oriented clubs. CASC-OR also comprises clubs that focus on Solo, Rally, concourse, ice racing, school and lapping days, as well as an increasing number of single-marque 'car fanciers' clubs. Individual clubs come together for many reasons, not the least of which may be a social circle. So I don't think it fair to consider 'scrapping all the clubs' just to make it easier to organize Regional Race events.

However, if we consider pooling the resources, both in terms of finances and personnel, we might find a better solution. But there is one thing to bear in mind. Over the years, the various clubs have developed teams of officials that work very well together, with different management styles and divisions of duties, such that individuals are not always easily interchangeable across clubs. Such is the nature of volunteer organizations.

The high cost of running events has raised the breakeven bar. Because an event may be undersubscribed by say, 10 entries, it may consistently fall below the breakeven point. But does that mean that it is not desirable to continue running that event? 60 to 70 racers may continue to enter that event, but for the 5 to 10 that don't show up that would otherwise bring the event to breakeven , should the event be cancelled - probably forever? If we are able to pool our resources, with perhaps the successful events helping to subsidize the smaller events, then it no longer matters which event gets the f1200s or Hondas or whatever. We all come out ahead - more choice, more options, less risk. The option of having a technical alternative (Shannonville) to a high horsepower track (Mosport) helps even out the power disparities between cars in the same classes. This helps open up the sport to different types of cars as well as drivers and thus benefits the sport. So I believe the Shannonville events should be kept on the schedule even if they do not always break even. We are not in this to make money. This is not financial darwinism.

[Director]

Karl, you have some good points. But I really dpon't think CASC-OR wants to be in the event organizing business. If the race organizing clubs would consider modeling the ORO & themselves as per the Ontario Solo Orgnaization, OSO, where 4-5 clubs have joined forces and have done split revenue & cost sharing it eases the burden on one club to make or break it. The last few years have been tough on Solo I and it's by way of the OSO that if HADA had a great weekend and TAC didn't, the burden wasn't suffered by the one club. It has worked quite well for Solo I, but I'm not sure any of the Race organizing clubs may welcome the idea. It may have never been tabled to them before, but who knows amybe if they saw how Solo I does it they may embrace it.
Just my 02¢ worth also.

[Steven Scala]

My post has to do with the structure of the CASC and its member clubs. As a sanctioning body, the CASC uses is member clubs (like BARC, of which I am a member) to run its events. I'm sure there is a long-standing history of regional racing that requires this.

This isn't the first time I've heard this suggested, but you might notice that our current practice isn't too far off from how series' are run elsewhere in the FIA, with one difference.

If we look at international examples, our parent body sanctions championships and recognizes their significance, but does not organize or promote them. They get Bernie & Co. to administer Formula 1, they got Stephane Ratel and the BPR Organisation to administer the FIA GT Championship, and so on. Same deal on the national level, with ASN and Formula Ford (Berman), and with Honda-Michelin (R. Luciw for Honda Canada).

Our regional structure deviates in that we have our agreements with promoters of individual events, while keeping a rather tight hold on the administration of some series'. (It's no coincidence that those series' we keep closest seem to suffer the weakest promotion.)

We have, however, seen the Ontario Formula 1600 Challenge grow to become quite healthy as a series, and to a certain extent, the same goes for Touring/GT. Both series' enjoy the leadership of Series Administrators who look after the promotion of their respective championships throughout the season, and year after year. (It may be a relatively 'in-house' effort in the case of Touring GT, but one can't argue the fact that TGT has enjoyed more consistent brand-building than the Canada Cup before it.)

I'd suggest that the reason we haven't seen the same turnaround for the Ontario Challenge Cup (nee RaceOntario GT Sprints) is largely because the series hasn't had the benefit of committed leadership. Same goes for Formule Libre (which, as I gather from feedback here at the office, has all the ingredients for success, save for somebody steering the ship).

I'd expect that for some clubs, administering series' rather than events would involve greater returns and decreased risk. (This certainly works for clubs like the BRDC and 750MC in the UK, for example.) Many of our clubs already have their own road rally and autoslalom championships, which currently pass under the regional championship radar.

Steve

[23Racer]

Gee Steve. If you keep insisting on making sense and clearing up misconceptions, I am going to have to stop reading these posts. I won't get my cardio workout from going insane over some ill informed posts.

[Bruce Mills]

Whoa! Where did we get the idea that region racing is in trouble. Last event BARC had 150 + entries. And if there is a problem who says it is in the Sprints. GTA, B,C D, 70+ had so many cars they had to split the fields. Sure FV1200 and F Libre attendance was not great but F1600 had 20 + cars. The only class really down was touring and what do you expect with BARC’s event starting only 6 days after the premier event of the year.

Just take a quick look at the races/classes that struggle and it’s a no brainier.
Drivers don’t want to race in April
Drivers don’t want to go to Shannonville 3 times in a row.
Drivers don’t or can’t race back to back events one week apart.

The only place we need to do a lot of work is in the F Libre group to make it more fun for the F2000, F4 and F First guys. The cars are out there but until it’s enough fun to justify the expense why come out.

As for getting rid of the clubs and having CASC organize all the events, just who do you think will do all the work. CASC has 1 paid employ and a bunch of volunteers who are already over worked.

BEMC needs 150 volunteers to put on each of our 2 races. Of the 150 about 75 work for CTA, MMS or CASC the other 75 work for BEMC and at least 50 of those only work for BEMC. As soon as “CASC” takes over those 50 are lost.

Of those 150 volunteers there are only 2 who attend all 9 regional events as workers. They are Gunter and Laura Schmidt. The master list of volunteer workers that the clubs have set up over the past 3 years is over 550 names. Again the only 2 who attend all events are the Schmidt’s.

It is the fact that you have 6 different clubs putting on 9 different events that lets the volunteers pick which group i.e. Club they want to work with. As long as there are different clubs there will be different choices for the volunteers who want to be involved. As soon as you have only one organizer you will have only one start group, one medical team, one rescue team, one grid group, one scrutinizing team, and so on across the entire sport. Anyone who does not want to be a part of this one group or is not accepted by this one group will be shut out of the sport. 550 volunteers have just been cut down to 150 who must now commit to spending the entire summer at the track. WE DO NOT HAVE 150 MORE GUNTER AND LAURA SCHMIDTS. So again, if not the clubs just who is going to run the races?

[Bruce Mills]

Now for a positive suggestion.

How about one day events.

The basic idea is to run it over two days but drivers only have to stay for one day

It should eliminate the expense of overnight accommodations. The 10.00am start means most people can tow in that morning, and those that can’t should have an easier time finding a room.

It could also be run on two different weekends by two different clubs eliminating the biggest expense clubs have at Shannonville the rooms for staff. Heck for that matter one club could run Saturday and another Sunday on the same weekend and everyone could still work only one day.

Sat. 10.00 am start time
Closed wheel Sprints 10 min. Practice 10.00-10.10
Open Wheel Sprints 10 min Practice 10.15-10.25
F1600 10 min. Practice 10.30-10.40
Closed wheel Sprints 20 min.Qualifying 10.45-11.05
Open Wheel Sprints 20 min.Qualifying 11.10-11.30
F1600 20 min.Qualifying 11.35-11.55
Lunch
Closed wheel Sprints 20 min.Race 12.35-12.55
Open Wheel Sprints 20 min.Race 1.00-1.20
F1600 22 min.Race 1.25-1.50
Closed wheel Sprints 20 min.Race 1.55-2.15
Open Wheel Sprints 20 min.Race 2.20-2.40
F1600 20 min.Qualifying 2.45-3.05
Closed wheel Sprints 20 min.Race 3.10-3.30
Open Wheel Sprints 20 min.Race 3.35-3.55
F1600 22 min.Race 4.00-4.25


Sunday 10.am Start
Touring 10 min.Practice 10.00-10.10
Vintage 10 min Practice 10.15-10.25
F1200 10 min. Practice 10.30-10.40
Touring 20 min.Qualifying 10.45-11.05
Vintage 20 min.Qualifying 11.10-11.30
F1200 20 min.Qualifying 11.35-11.55
Lunch
Vintage 20 min.Race 12.35-12.55
F1200 20 min.Race 1.00-1.20
Touring 20 min.Race 1.25-1.50
Vintage 20 min.Race 1.55-2.15
F1200 20 min.Race 2.20-2.35
Touring 40 min.Race 2.40-3.20
Vintage 20 min.Race 3.25-3.45
F1200 20 min.Race 3.50-4.20

Anyone want to try it?

[Trackside]

Originally posted by Bruce Mills
Now for a positive suggestion.

......... and everyone could still work only one day.



Hey Bruce you worked hard on that and there appears to be a possibility that a schedule like that could work. I will amend the quoted statement above though to make sure that everyone understands. It would be the competitors and possibly the organizers that would have a one day event. The rest of the workers timing and the marshals would still have a two day weekend.

Another suggestion based on the idea of a one day event for you to consider.

A regular Saturday schedule on whichever day you want to run it and then offer a Hillclimb, obviously only at Mosport because SMP isn't much of a challenge in elevation. I would suggest running Mosport in reverse direction from 5 to Start/Finish. If you want to get fancy we could also do something for a local charitible group by running a soapbox derby at the sametime on the back straight. Just a couple of off the wall ideas to defer costs and do good at the same time

[WRL]

Well, against my better judgment, here's a few thoughts.


Schedule

1. Cancel Spring Fling, instead change the first BARC weekend to the new Spring Fling (lapping event).
2. Cancel the labour day event or make it a non points weekend.
3. At least one of the F1600 or F1200 series have to be at a every region event. No event should be without at least one of these groups.


Lack of Interest in Shannonville

Why not create a championship within a championship. The top drivers for the 3 Shannonville events are awarded the Shannonville Championship. Points scored at Shannonville also go towards the overall championship. Also it would be nice to run the long track.


Single Day Events

On the surface they seem like a good idea. But what happens when you're having car troubles? The two day events give teams time to repair any damage as well as chase set up issues.

[rmicroys]

Please no single day events. People (not just the racers, but volunteers, officials, etc...) from Toronto whine incessantly enough about going to Shannonville; and then possibly make the races just for one day?

Then just think about those coming for one day from Ottawa - or any other long haul to Mosport - that just makes you waste an entire weekend for just one day - because you're not hauling back on the same day that the race is on - so what's the point? I certainly would not attend one day events at Mosport.

Bruce, you ask what is wrong with Regional Road Racing? It's not regional. ;)

[Nabs]

Originally posted by WRL



Lack of Interest in Shannonville

Why not create a championship within a championship. The top drivers for the 3 Shannonville events are awarded the Shannonville Championship. Points scored at Shannonville also go towards the overall championship. Also it would be nice to run the long track.



I like this suggestion! :D

[slucas]

I would support the 1 day race weekend idea, but having something on the second day as an option would be a good idea and maybe a money generator for the club.ie; solo 1, test day (make it known to one make car clubs) ,racing school...
It took me almost 5 hours to get home from the MCO event this year because of long weekend traffic (and a huge thunder storm)
It only took me 2 hours to get there on Sat. a.m..
I would have been happy doing all the racing on Sat. and driving home that night or Sun. morning, giving me the better part of Sunday to do family things (my wife doesn't read this so I can safely use this arguement:rolleyes: )_

[Doc Driver]

While all of this makes sense, I do not see any new ideas that have not been raised in the last 20 years (Scott, Rod, and Bruce it has actually been 24). There was one mention of doing away with the Labor Day weekend or making it a non-points event. What would that do to CRDA? One event at SMP and the other either gone or non-points. We may as well kiss that club goodbye and all of the associated volunteers who will only work for that club(Bruce's point). While that may be acceptable, there are other factors to be considered. How is CASC financially? Are they able to afford the loss of the revenue from the club levy when that club goes away? That's just my 2 cents.

What we need to do is look at radical ways to make this thing work. Here is one to start with: CASC has a master list of all drivers for the last 20 years. Put a team together to call (email will not work since they will not respond) all of these drivers, find out what they are doing these days. The main question you want to determine is where is the car they used to race? Scotty, where is your Mini? Where is Colonel Lou's Midget? Lets find the cars and then find drivers for them - broker the sale of the race car. That way we have a win-win situation. If the guy is no longer racing we can put some cash in his pocket and we get the car on the track again.

[Bill Lobban]

Please let's keep opinions separate from facts Shaun.
You say " clubs running 1 or 2 events are in financial problems.
Not true, we in BARC are having no money problems with running 2 Regionals per year.

[Bruce Mills]

Bill is totally correct. Not all the clubs are losing money. BEMC certianly is not.
This whole task force issue has totally lost it's proper focus. Regional Road Raceing is not in any more trouble than it has been for the last 50 years. In fact it is in much better shape than most of those 50 years. Present car counts at most races are right where they have trditionally been(120-150 cars). Sure during the peak of the Canada Cup days we had much larger feilds (200+)just like we did back during the years the Firestone Firehawk series ran at regional events. Those where anomalies that some people have taken to be expected.

In 2001 without the bumper crop of CCC cars we where all caught by falling car counts and rising expenses and that year every club lost money. We adjusted fees and car counts have come back up to 120 to 150 at most events. If some events can not attract the required numbers the question is not what is wrong with region racing but what is wrong with those events. We must all work to find ways to make thes events viable but we must be very careful that we increase the turnout at these events by making them better NOT BY MAKING THE SUCCESSFUL EVENTS WORSE!

We should not be thinking of this as a task force to solve region racings problems but a task force to make a good thing better!