Breakout rules?

[rmicroys]

Now here's just a thought, what are other people's opinions on the OCC breakout rules?

Q. Is the DNF/DSQ for a breakout during a race an appropriate penalty?

Why make the penalty so extreme? Maybe a less offensive penalty could be used for breakouts incurred while racing. Say, simply remove the offending lap from the scoring? By removing one lap from the competitor in a 20 minute sprint result, one will usually end up at the back of your group regardless.

The rule for qualifying is fine. If you breakout during qualifying, simply start from the back of the pack.

Discuss...

[GT106]

Personally if you break out you are in the wrong group, IMHO. Does it matter if you use DNF or DQ??
We have all broken out at one time or another--as far as Im concerned "thems the breaks" I just moved up a group.

my $0.02 worth

[John Powell]

Hmmm, Rob, funny you should mention this topic. On another thread a while back I got into a discussion on the same topic, especially when the break-out is only a few seconds, or in my case, tenths of a second, and I came up with: ... but the problem I had was how to make up time lost in traffic without going too fast and being DQ'd. If there was a time penalty, say double the time by which you broke out applied to that lap, up to a maximum of 30 seconds or so, ... The problem here is, could our timing system be re-programmed to accommodate such a rule? We could add to this a graduated penalty scale, say if double the time is over 30 sec. and up to one minute, you lose a lap, and one minute and over you're DQ'd.

The problem with bracket racing as I see it is that to be competitive, you have to have a car that can lap in clear traffic at marginally under the break-out limit (say 15 to 30 sec.) in order to deal with laps where traffic delays you but not the other driver. In such situations right now, unless you have a radio and spotters taking segment times, you're at a competitive disadvantage to someone who can afford such a luxury. And if bracket racing is supposed to be for the budget-racer, these things ARE a luxury.

Anyway, this is a good topic, and I hope you get some worthwhile ideas put forward, hopefully more workable than my suggestions. ;)

[negative$flow]

Originally posted by rmicroys
Now here's just a thought, what are other people's opinions on the OCC breakout rules?

Q. Is the DNF/DSQ for a breakout during a race an appropriate penalty?

Why make the penalty so extreme? Maybe a less offensive penalty could be used for breakouts incurred while racing. Say, simply remove the offending lap from the scoring? By removing one lap from the competitor in a 20 minute sprint result, one will usually end up at the back of your group regardless.

The rule for qualifying is fine. If you breakout during qualifying, simply start from the back of the pack.

Discuss...

A DNF is too severe , why discourage people from racing when the fields are very seldom filled as it now sits ?
What about someone new to racing or with a new car that isn't sorted ? Are we supposed to fill the car with all kinds of electronic devices {increasing the already high costs of racing}as they had to at the Dragstrips so we don't breakout ?

[RedRabbit Racer]

I don't think its extreme and maybe it could be tougher! prior to transponders I thought there was a real risk of timing errors that could lead false breakouts so I feel the dsq for that race is fair.

However, we now know exactly how fast we go on every lap.

It may be hard to pick a class - I am GTC at Mosport but run GTD times at SMP. Pick the faster class and don't even think about breaking out.

If there was only one track, I think a breakout should lead to an automatic transfer up to the next faster class!

[malcolm]

people seem all too willing to bolt on the next little go-fast bit, but if you're close to your break out, why not put in something to make you a little slower? Put on a big spoiler on the back... Make a slight restrictor plate...

Also, I like the idea of just removing the lap, or laps that were broken out. That way, you wouldn't be starting behind the cars that either didn't enter the previous race, or had problems.

[negative$flow]

A new racer goes out and buys an old CGTCC car rebuilds the engine ,upgrades the turbo, goes over the driveline , buys tires pays for driving school and buys all the safety equipment required . Takes a couple of other driving schools takes the car out for 2 lapping days at Mosport and does a few other lapping days at Shannonville The cost so far is in the range of $20,000 and more will need to be spent to get to a race . We are over the fact that we are not racing for money , only for points . So we enter a race ,pick a class that seems competitive considering our laptimes during testing and qualifying . During the race we go one tenth under the class limit and go home about $1000+{for the weekend} poorer and without any points but with a nice friendly DNF . Or we enter a class above and finish dead last . Either way it will not encourage futher participation .
Losing the lap or adding 20 seconds to the breakout time for that lap seems a little more reasonable .

[RedRabbit Racer]

If you are spending $20,000 on a car you shouldn't finish last because of your equipment.

It would be an unsual weekend where there is but one points race - usually there is practice, a qualifying session and then three points races in the sprints. this gives several chances to determine what class you belong in.

I think a lot of competitors would agree that one race does not a season or championship make and a win today does not guarantee anything tomorrow.

DNF's hurt more when you don't add enough fuel, blow a fuse, get a flat tire, or get punted off the track by someone else than they do when see your times and realize you have just gone faster than you ever have before.

As you say there is no money to be won, so enjoy the thrill of speed and close competition and the satisfaction of driving with your head in a car that will finish rather than worrying about leaving the track with some extra points.

another option would be to spend a fractionof that amount of money, start in GTD with something like a street stock nissan and concentrate on driving instead of breaking out

[Bubblecar]

"Most" drivers who break out of their class - are so thrilled (often they have just set a new personal best) that the DNF doesn't concern them.

Moving up a class (eg - from the top of GTD to bottom of GTC. etc.) has always been a problem and source of frustation - but drivers seem to cope.

I would also suggest that a first year driver who "goes out and buys an old CGTCC car, rebuilds the engine, upgrades the turbo, goes over the driveline, etc. etc." - may be getting in over his/her head. Believe me - I know what I speak of ! I always took big bites - and now strongly suggest against it.

As Graham suggested, get out in GTD - develop your skills - you'll probably have a shot at winning - and in future years will have a far better idea of what you are looking for.

Just my thoughts . . .

[negative$flow]

I understand that one race does not make a season , maybe I have done this all too often and some beefs I have stem from past experiences .
When I bracket raced at Cayuga even if I lost by breaking out I still took the points I made for the day up to that point . We got rewarded for the "effort" of coming to the track spending some money and putting on a show.So even if it was a bad day we made more points than the guy that didn't show up for the race that weekend .So at seasons end if you had a few breakouts along with some good days you still finished ahead of the guy that showed up once in a while even if he kicked your butt everytime he was there .
It is a thrill to run faster than you ever had before but if the race effort is going well it is to be expected untill the limits of the car and driver is reached . Up until that point I feel it is a little harsh to slap one's wrist for racing hard and misjudging or not quite knowing at that point in time the capabilities of the car and driver .
One more point and I will leave for a while it is not a $20,000 car , that is merely the number we are approaching on the effort of prepping the car along with safety equipment and driver education etc . It in no way makes the car flawless and I fully expect a DNF or two in 2005 . But a DNF should be because of a racing incident , lack of preparation of the car including part failure or something else related to racing hard .

Not from the stroke of a pen by a rule maker

[negative$flow]

Bubblecar . Even though this year will be the first year competing in OCC , it has been a 3 year effort to get here . The car is bought and money spent so it is far too late to drop it and buy a different car .
I appreciate the recommedations and while it might have been easier and cheaper to get into a GTD car I doubt I could have kept the driver interested past the first couple of races .

[de Jager]

Personally, I think a DNF is the wrong result from breaking out. Especially, on only one lap in a whole race. It may be better just just revoke points for that one event or issue an overall time deduction based on each BO lap.

When I first started, I ran a few lapping days and I was horrible (by comparision to today). I was running a 1:55 at best and decided to enter my first event in GTD. However, my skills got much better (sub 1:47) and I was breaking out in qualifying and every race but due to some serious timing problems, I had no idea. Each time I arrived to the grid, they placed me but nobody was able to provide me with any lap times until the end of the weekend. As a rookie...what did I know. I was able to get that car down to 1:42:1ish. in my second year.

Going faster has to start with the driver learning how to drive fast, not just making a faster car. As such, getting every tenth of a second out of your car in a slower class is not such a bad thing. At least making a mistake at slower speeds will be less severe.

[John Powell]

OK, a little personal history to support my position. When I got back into racing in 2003 at Mosport (after a 32 year absence), I ran my car in GTC as that's where the previous owner had run competitively with it. In the first race we only had a small class of 5 or 6 cars, and I qualified at the back with a 1:45 or so. Not knowing much about bracket racing, at the start I put my foot in it, and wound up in a great dice with a guy in an Eagle Talon (sound familiar Shaun?). I managed to stay in front until he snookered me going into turn eight by tucking in behind a car that was lapping us, but finally managed to get in front again as my car was a little faster up the back straight if I wound it out to 9500+ revs in the gears. I was feeling pretty "chuffed" with my efforts until I went up to check the results, and found a big DQ next to my name for breaking out with a 1:41.79, or just over two tenths faster than the limit. (And it is a DQ you get for breaking out, not a DNF!)

When I first raced back in the '60s, those who got disqaulified usually did so for being caught cheating, and they were generally not popular with other drivers. When I raced, I always did my best to win, even on those occasions when my car was not competitive, and I did not and still don't believe in cheating to win. Up until this first race back I had never been disqaulified, and seing this, my first DQ, really bothered me. It wasn't until later in the season that I realised that it wasn't uncommon for some of the faster drivers in GTC to get DQ'd for breaking out, and they seemed to dismiss this as part of the risk one takes in trying to be a class-winner.

While breaking out, even by a few seconds or less, is technically a breach of the rules, it doesn't compare in seriousness to offences such as intentional contact, passing under a yellow flag, or breaking car preparation regulations, unless the break-out is of such an extent that the car is obviously a "sleeper" which belongs in a higher class. To me, a DQ for a break-out of a few seconds or less is far too draconian a penalty for such a minor offence, which is why I welcome Rob's initiation of this discussion. There is an old saying which I think should be our guide here, "Let the punishment fit the crime!" :mad:

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by RedRabbit Racer
It may be hard to pick a class - I am GTC at Mosport but run GTD times at SMP. Pick the faster class and don't even think about breaking out.

I hear ya.... At Mosport I got near the break out of GTC in '04, and I'm hardly a mid bracket GTC car with the laps I turn at SMP last year.

That's why this year the breakouts got adjusted.

When I started, I started in GTD as well. Broke out my first weekend at Mosport in the Jetta. Quickly realized that the car was a GTC car.


If there was only one track, I think a breakout should lead to an automatic transfer up to the next faster class!
Why is it not tough enough? If the driver gets their fastest lap removed from the scoring, they end up behind just about all the cars in class anyway. So it's not like it's really going to affect the finishing order of the people who did not break out. The driver still ends up in last place in class.

I just think that a DSQ is a little strong. For each B/O lap, just remove one lap from the driver's race total. That pretty quickly gets one to the back of the pack. Poeple still gets points, even if it is just a pittance - but a disqualification - that's a touch extreme.

Now what would we do for bracket classes say in a 3 hour enduro - if that were to be the rule? Or what about the race OCC race at one of the pro weekends this year. I'm sure that Mosport isn't going to give the OCC three 20 minute races during the weekend. So with a 60 or 45 minute OCC format - one lap below the breakout and you can get a DSQ (?) Not really fair.

Good discussion.

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by malcolm
Also, I like the idea of just removing the lap, or laps that were broken out. That way, you wouldn't be starting behind the cars that either didn't enter the previous race, or had problems.

That's a great reason too... at least you 'finished' ahead of the others who never were even in the previous session.

[Bubblecar]

Originally posted by rmicroys
Why make the penalty so extreme? Maybe a less offensive penalty could be used for breakouts incurred while racing. Say, simply remove the offending lap from the scoring? By removing one lap from the competitor in a 20 minute sprint result, one will usually end up at the back of your group regardless.

The suggestion to just remove the offending lap(s) from the competitor - sounds quite good. Few (no one) could be competitive in a class if they loose a lap. Would have to be some pretty extreme breakout to make up a full one minute whatever.

But - there may be other problems in poorly filled classes. Not unsual to have only one or two cars in GTD / sometimes GTC. So someone with a breakout could easily come second or third (maybe even win once in a while).

Would it be possible for someone to win the championship (maybe even overall title) - based on repeated seconds and thirds - while breaking out in every single race?

[rmicroys]

Okay... if it's underfilled, and then you have somebody who comes out EVERY weekend, breaks out one a weekend and still wins say third over who? somebody like Mike White last year who only went to three weekends? Heck we only went to three weekends in GTC and nearly had third overall for the year. So - again we get back to the why are some classes underfilled. But I'll shut up right now, you all know what my answer is there. Of all the classes I would have expected GTC and GTD to be full more often because it's more affordable to go slower! oh well.

[DEK]

I'm sure the penalty for a break out is open to discussion.

Try this one, you lose the laps below the break out times, you keep the points you got for the revised finishing position, you keep any year to date earned points in the class you broke out from, but these point DO NOT move with you to your new class,you are in the next faster class, presuming you remember to go and change your class . If YOU forget to change your class, any time that year that you are on the track your qualifying times will be ignored and you will start the race from the back of the grid. In any races you will be DQ'd as a car not complying to the regulations as the class you entered and maybe the class designation on the car are incorrect.
Once you enter the correct class and have the correct class desination on the car, you start to collect points in your new class.

Would any one entertain a discussion about allowing 1 forgiveable breakout during the year, in qualifying or a race not to exceed a certain amount ? 1/2 second ? (Don't ask me for the perfect solution on how to keep track of this or YELL at me for suggesting it)

If you have a car that with you as the driver will break out if you drive at your current potential and you choose to "sandbag" I think you need to ask yourself if the points and trophy are
worth that much against your reason(s) for racing.

DAVE KING
(one of the people who was involved when "bracket racing" for CASC-OR came into effect)

[malcolm]

don't you think that if someone competes in GTC all year, and breaks out twice in the penultimate round, that it is unfair for that competitor to be barred from competing in GTC for the remainder of the year?

Personal opinion time: I think that when someone breaks out, that lap should be removed. That's it. If they want to stay in that class, and maybe reduce the performance of their car (ie. put on a big spoiler, etc), then more power to them. I don't think anyone should be removed from a class just because they broke out. If they break out, they suffer the consequences by losing those laps. That seems fair to me.

[rmicroys]

With regards to a 'forgivable breakout', I am not in favor. I seem to remember in CGTCC GT2 there was such a rule - it was a issue of contention at times.

I think the system should be kept very simple. Either you lose the lap in question (sprint races) or are issued a 'stop and go' during an Endurance race (45min-1hour in length or longer) if such an event were held based on the current OCC rule set.

[RedRabbit Racer]

I think lap times are largely dependent on the car &driver and to a lesser extent variations in track conditions due to temperature, weather etc. which cause you to go a little bit faster.

From time to time I have noticed a car being driven five seconds a lap slower than it used to go. If the car is being driven in a slower class, it seems to me there are grounds to suspect that something is lying in reserve. Somewhere down the line there is the chance that the reserve could be selectively used as required.

In other words, I someone wants to give me a GTA car, I think I could do pretty well in GTB if breakouts mean I just lose a lap for breaking out.

Don't worry there won't be any GTA cars in my future until I win the lotto!:)

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by RedRabbit Racer
From time to time I have noticed a car being driven five seconds a lap slower than it used to go. If the car is being driven in a slower class, it seems to me there are grounds to suspect that something is lying in reserve. Somewhere down the line there is the chance that the reserve could be selectively used as required.

Okay... so there is a GT-B car in GT-C - what's the point? That's certainly allowed, they can sandbag all they want. In a 20 minute race, there is no way given a 4 sec difference in laptime to any other car in class that they can lap the field.

At Mosport based on a 4 second time difference between a GT-C car cracking off 1m41.1s laps - and a GT-D leading car (1m45.1s laps) - really all GT-C cars should be faster than 1m45s or else they really should be in GT-D no? But I digress... between the two hypothetical cars, it would take 25 laps given a 4 second difference in laps for the lead GTC car to catch the leading GTD car with the new breakouts if both drivers could drive their laps consisently.

Now it takes over 42 minutes for a car doing 1m41s laps to do 25 laps of Mosport - so I don't think that there is a reason to be concerned about the position of a lead car to be in any way capable of lapping the field in a OCC sprint race. So if the guy has 1 (one!) breakout lap, he's automagically one lap down to the 2nd place (now first place) car. He still gets points, which is a nice thing, and doesn't have any ugly DQ on the results.

FWIW, it takes a 2005 GTA car 22 laps to lap a top GTB car, which takes takes about 35 minutes elapsed green time.

And GT1... well, that's another story now ;)

So, I don't think that the drop the breakout laps proposition is at risk of upsetting anybody's apple carts. It is still a severe penalty regardless - and is fair from what I can see. I'm would certainly hope that the software can already accommodate the functionality.

[malcolm]

rob, you could have saved yourself a lot of math by simply realizing that if all your laps were below the cut-off time, then all those laps would be removed. :D

The little bit that you could gain on someone by breaking out would be more than offset by loosing that lap. The penalty would increase a lot more for each lap you break out. I really don't think someone could engineer a way around it.

[rmicroys]

No... what I'm trying to demonstrate that you can't even lap the LAST GUY in your field - then have a breakout lap, and stay ahead of anybody in your class who didn't experience some other sort of mishap, problem or whatever. If your laps are within your breakout time slot, the leader of your class will never pass you - except maybe in exceptional circumstance which may involve a yellow and lucky placement in the field of the lead GT1 car.

[DEK]

OK, so there appears to be some support to throw out the laps below the class break out time, but you can still stay in the class.

Who wants to take the lead and conduct a genuine poll of a significant number of the GT drivers to determine if there is support for this. I don't know what kind of mess this makes with the race reults or how many complaints there will be from people who agree with the idea and then lose laps.

I think there should be a process to force a driver to re-classify
themself and their car. I would not want to see a situation where a person is quite often and by a large margin below the class limit but because of the size of the normal turnout in that class, they are in a respectable position in the class points. I know this is theoretical but !!!!

DK

[rmicroys]

The race committee is in charge of the rules. What is the official process for submitting changes?

What process is used by the committee to gather information from members? Can I get a mailing list of all '04 OCC and TGT drivers - send them a SAE with a questionaire? I suppose an email list might suffice too. I'll gladly write up a survey (or rule change proposal), collect the data and then forward it on to the race committee.

I'm not sure we need a process to force a driver to reclassify. Though it is a valid question. I'm not really sure if it is needed. Just because somebody breaks out a lot - they will already be losing a lot of points because of it, even with the removal of the breakout laps.

[Bubblecar]

Originally posted by DEK
I would not want to see a situation where a person is quite often and by a large margin below the class limit but because of the size of the normal turnout in that class, they are in a respectable position in the class points. I know this is theoretical but !!!!
That's the point I was trying to make earlier. Can't figure out why anyone would go to so much trouble - but then I have been absolutely amazed at how a couple of drivers seems to think that a $15 trophy is worth ANYTHING - no matter how few people they have to compete against, or how many rules they have to interpret creatively, or how many cars they have to punt out of the way.

That's still not a reason not to try changing the breakout rule - just a sad reality that someone, somewhere will see it as an opportunity:confused:

[rmicroys]

But what I don't understand from your point Nick, is that if there WERE an opportunity to use it to an advatage (still not sure where one could yet) - that same advantage (be it perceived or not) is available to all.

[GT106]

There seems to be good arguments on both sides for changing versus leaving things as they are. But one has to realise as competative people we all like to be a winner-I sure dont want to be an also ran. I was out of racing, for many reasons for twenty three years ( Not quite as long as John) and to be honest I didnt know what I had forgotten and how fast my car was, so I started out in GTD. It took a couple of races to realise I was in the WRONG class.I soon broke out and I moved up to GTC. And by the end of the year, with some close racing with Mike White I got damn close to braking out of GTC. My car is definately NOT competative in GTB. Personally weather you finish last or brakeout --What really is the difference? Yes I dont want to race with a guy who sandbags and has someone calling out times every lap. But as Malcolm said there is ways to slow down your car--Harder compound Tires, spoiler etc.
Another $0.02 cents worth.

Mark Durant.

[rmicroys]

Okay... now you did every lap in but broke out in race 1, lets say. Somebody else who didn't finish in race 1 - or worse, didn't even take the start - will start in front of you for race 2. Is a break out lap truely worth getting shoved to the back of the pack for the next race. I mean bad enough that one didn't get any points, and on top of it, a DQ always makes you feel like you 'cheated'...

Going too fast isn't 'cheating' because it's not like you AREN'T going to get caught? LOL... ah... the love of a good discussion. This is certainly interesting to see people's views.

[GT106]

Rob---I Agree with you that DQ sounds like cheating--Maybe it should say B/O --Its really just samantics. But You are right that somone who raced in Race 1, should NOT be placed behind somone who only showed up on Sunday or who broke down on the first lap and never finished. But they should be placed at the rear just ahead of these people.

Mark Durant.:)

[John Powell]

In order to allay any fears of abuse which may arise in those not overly enthusiastic regarding any changes, it behoves (I love that word :D ) those of us who support a mitigation (that one too) in the present penalty structure for breaking out, that we assure such doubters that we are at the same time recognizant that some sort of limit on such mitigation must also be established and enforced. In other words, if you break out by too much too often, you're gonna be bumped up a class, me boyo! :o

[Bruce Mills]

Remember the KISS rule. Keep It Stupid Simple! Nothing could be simpler than scanning the fastest lap and moving breakouts to the bottom of the list. Even though the software is supposed to automatically pick up break outs, plus the Chief Time Keeper, Clerk and Results staff should be manually checking some break outs make it through. Lets not complicate things.

[rmicroys]

If the software is supposed to pickup the break-outs and some still make it through, it looks like the software is rather buggy then.

[DEK]

Rob, you asked how to supply input to the Race Committe.
I don't know if CASC can supply you with driver addresses because of privacy rules. However, I don't think there would be a restriction on CASC mailing the survey. We'd have to convince CASC to pay the postage or figure out how to reimburse CASC.

The results of a properly conducted survey may be used as input to the Race Committee as evidence to support a rule change regarding breakout process.

DAVE KING

[RedRabbit Racer]

Are there not driver representatives who can supply input?

[rmicroys]

If I'm not mistaken Alan DeWolfe is a driver rep, not sure who else is? Steve Kent's name rings a bell too... but how do we get the global opinion of the drivers out there to see if a rule change is warranted? Certainly the limited number of us nerds who sit online reading and bantering on this forum isn't entirely indicative of the entire tin top driver population. I know there are people out there that just lurk, and never offer their opinions online as well... dunno.

[slucas]

Going faster than your break-out time is somewhat like being underweight at tech.If you were only 4 lbs. underwieght at post race inspection, could you argue that you were only light on the last lap and only that lap should be disallowed?
That being said, I sympathize with your plight.
If the "B/O" times (an unfortunate acronym) are not set in stone then they can be fiddled during the year to keep people where they belong.This is where the Driver Rep can step in and arbitrate.
Another option is to close up the times a little so you aren't so far away from the front of your new class if you get bumped up.

[malcolm]

Going faster than your break-out time is somewhat like being underweight at tech

excellent point. however, I still think that the cars that broke out should start ahead of those that were not in the previous session.

on the other hand, does being 1 lb underweight really warrant a DQ? For most series, I would suggest that if you were less the 10 lbs light, you would get a 30 sec. penalty, and beyond that a DQ.

just my opinion... :)

[Oddball]

The timing Software Orbits does NOT pick up break-outs. AMB never configured it to account for them as we seem to be the only region in north american road racing that has break out rules (only other groups are NHRA, IHRA and the likes).

[rmicroys]

Only region with breakouts? Not true, an enduro held in BC last year had breakout based classes. We're not the only one.

Has anybody tought to ask AMB to see if the software can be updated for breakout based classes? Doesn't hurt to ask.

[slucas]

suggestions;

A driver that b/o's :rolleyes: but finishes the race, is gridded behind all others that finished at least 50% (<>?) of the race but ahead of late comers and DNF's.

A driver that b/o's and finishes the race receives 1/2 points for that race.If that driver wishes to stay in that class he gets a penelty of 50lbs (<>?) NB, we wouldn't be weighing cars ,just checking that they had the "official" lead trophey bolted in the car . If someone collects a few weight penelties they can remove the ballest and move up a class if they like.The loss of 100 or 150 lbs. would go some way to making them more competitive in the higher class.

[rmicroys]

why make them even more complicated? Say if there are 6 cars in class, you were the leader, but you had a breakout lap. All cars raced to distance and finished all on the same lap relative to each other. The leader looses his breakout lap, placing himself behind ALL other 5 cars, scores 10 points instead of 30. As the position being affected moves further back in the grid the points difference is certainly less, but the penalty is the same. Loss of your best laps.

First, if a person is already being penalized, why force them to carry weight? If a person breaks out on a regular basis, they can never be competitive in class - and they have to then make a choice, to either slow their own car down or make it faster and step up. Forced class changing is not required in my mind.

Would it not just be easy to simply not score breakout laps? they'll lose easy a lap (or more!) and they basically get next to last in class points for that race.

Carrying weight for the sprints just complicates things too much. If timing and scoring can't have a program that can deal with break-outs atuo-magically then it would be easier just to forget about the whole thing and leave it like it is. Putting additional human interaction in to the fold is just asking for scoring errors and other issues/problems..

[slucas]

I agree with your last paragraph.
If yer too fass fer yer class you lose.

[Bruce Mills]

Originally posted by rmicroys
. If timing and scoring can't have a program that can deal with break-outs atuo-magically then it would be easier just to forget about the whole thing and leave it like it is. Putting additional human interaction in to the fold is just asking for scoring errors and other issues/problems..

Like I said before "Keep It Stupid Simple". Now I am sure we have someone in the region who could come up with a system to do this automatically but would they be willing, would it be worth the effort and how many years would it take to get all the bugs out.

Lets stay with the KISS rule and leave well enough alone. The system may have its faults but for our level of racing I don't think anyone has ever come up with a better system to let everyone come out and have fun.

Two very small bits of fine tuning would be to ensure break outs are not listed as DSQ and I think they should start behind the cars who DNF but ahead of those that DNS.

Two final points I need help to understand. It makes perfect sense that when you move up a class you can not take your GTC points into the GTB championship. But should your B and C points not be added together to calculate the overall closed wheel and region championship? And why can you move up a class whenever you want but not down?

[rmicroys]

Ya... points in only one class may count towards the race championship.

RaceOntario Series Regs:

12.6 CLASS SCORING - MINIMUM
Competitors may count only one class score towards the overall Race Ontario Championship.

I can't find any reference about restricting a driver to go "down" in class though.

Appendix Q:

4.0 RECLASSIFICATION
Competitors may change the class designation, provided application in writing to the Clerk of the
Course is made at least one hour prior to a qualifying session or race. The class designation on
the car shall also be changed to conform to the new registered class. Whenever class designation
is changed during an event, the competitor shall start the race from the rear of the grid.

[Bubblecar]

I think what you could do would be to stop counting laps when a car breaks out.

As soon as you break out - your race is finished - as far as succesfully completed laps goes.

Break out on the last lap of a race - you only lose one lap.

Break out on the third lap - record only shows you successfully completed 2 laps.

etc. etc.

Should be simple to administer and still discourages guys from breaking out (too early).

It's better than just adding a one lap penalty no matter when the offense occurs.

[rmicroys]

From what the timing and scoring guys say, it's not so easy. That still would require manual editing of each b/o driver's results. I would have thought that the timing software would have been a little more sophisticated, but evidently not. Bracket racing must not be too popular in most santioning bodies ... ;)

At this point considering the quality of the results and the speed we get them these days having people having to muck with all the different b/o results then it's really not worth it, I'd think you'd probably also get the folks at CTA agreeing with this too.

[Gunter Schmidt]

Hu, all this ranting and raving makes me dizzy.

1): We did have this incremental breake out penalties years ago. Guess what- no one liked it because it was taken advantage of at season end to win races.

2): How many breake outs did we have last year, is it really a problem.
My guess is we all raced about 12000 laps and we had about 12 laps with brake outs.
I really don’t have the time to get the exact numbers, but Rob if you have then log on to MyLaps and count all the laps.

3): You can move up and down a class as you whish but you can’t move your points.

4) Here is one reason for not combining points :
Car A is running al season in GT-A and has accumulated 450 points and is in fifth place in class. The leader in GT-C has 430 points at the last race weekend Car A decides to enter GT-C. He is just following the GT-C leader so he is not braking out. That now makes him the GT-C champion and maybe the overall champion. Fair “NO”
More reason available

5) Orbits Software will highlight the fastest lap of every competitor, but all modification to the results are manual.

6) Answer to all problems – let’s create a class for every single car on the track.

Every one wins!

:D

[rmicroys]

I don't think that bruce is asking about moving your points, I think it's more about having a driver accumulate all his points in any class he races in to allow him to be elidgible for the overall championship.

Say a driver rents a different car every weekend and ends up racing a GTA car for two weekends, a GTB car for others - just because the driver accummulates points in more than one class - then he has no chance to win 'overall'. True, allowing this to be changed, then people can use it to an advantage to jump classes to their advantage.

I don't think anybody is asking to transfer points between classes for a class championship.

Actually, make sure you create two classes for every car on the track in case the break out too much ;)