Calling Mr. Wes Tanney

[holliko]

anything happening on the schedule and rules update for 2005??? thanks in advance.....
Robert

[tanney]

Yep!

[13inches]

Cool!

[gianpaolo]

when will the new agenda be up for all of us to enjoy?

[tanney]

When it's done. It's not easy getting 9 different clubs to set none conflicting dates together. Almost ever club is invoved in more than one series (Solo 1, club events, regional series etc).

The CAC rule book is in draft form and being reviewed. Once the review is finsihed and the CAC rule book finalized, I will add the Regional series section and release it.

There are no major changes (that I have noticed yet) from last year, mostly formating..

THe schedule should be out by the end of the month at the latest and the rule book will probably be three weeks.

[gianpaolo]

:cool:

[miataboi]

I was surprised that PAX is being re-written... and by whom and with what data / assumptions in mind?

We moved overall to be based on PAX... and now they are being re-written?

Was this discussed at the meeting?

Is this just an Ontario thing?

[tanney]

PAX is not getting re-written, it is being re-assessed, as it should every year.

Yes, it was discussed at the workshop and yes it is an Ontario only thing (unless the rest of the country that uses pax agree)

[miataboi]

Originally posted by tanney
PAX is not getting re-written, it is being re-assessed, as it should every year.

Yes, it was discussed at the workshop and yes it is an Ontario only thing (unless the rest of the country that uses pax agree)

How is it being re-assessed? Various people submitting suggestions?

How are we coming to these #'s. You can NOT use Ontario alone... and all of Canada doesn't use the same ruleset... CNAC can't be used because even there there was a smallish field in many classes...

I was under the impression that it wouldn't change much... with perhaps the exception of like H-stock and DSS where there may have been POTENTIAL to re-assess...

Also... there are rumours of double-headers this year... if this is the case... can we make the season's events for overall be (x/2) -1

There are some very real vacation, traveling distances and weather considerations IMHO with this type of format.

Lastly... did anyone ever publish the meeting minutes from the workshop?

[tanney]

Lastly... did anyone ever publish the meeting minutes from the workshop? Did your club post them? Each club involved in Solo 2 in Ontario were sent the overview of what was discussed and what may be done.

The Solo 2 web page should start to take shape soon and will include them.

If you have a problem with the pax numbers, send me what YOU think they should be. I will review them and comment.

I had a volunteer member of the community compiled a database of all events run in Canada with the CAC rules set and sent me the numbers for review.

I personally have been looking at the regional results very carefully using these projected (and other) pax numbers and comparing course, drivers, and conditions.

Obviously certain classes have more competition and good drivers in them, some have under prepped cars, or good but not great drivers in them.

How many a or b mod, ASS, ASP, BSP, AS, BS, ES or FS cars came out anywhere in the country? It's going to be a challenge to get them perfected.

When there have solid numbers to use, I will send select people the numbers for assessment and then they will be made official and published in the rule book. There will be a clause, as in the past, stating that the pax number will be assessed and possibly updated to fix any obvious flaws.

[gatherer]

Originally posted by tanney
I had a volunteer member of the community compiled a database of all events run in Canada with the CAC rules set and sent me the numbers for review.


yep because I never want to make decisions...

anyone whose interested in the compiled times (a list of the fastest time for each class) for the 31 events where i could confirm CAC rules were used. please email me I'll send it too you.

as for how I did the math to come up with a suggestion for Wes, Wes has been informed. Also I didn't do just one number crunching attempt I did several (a few of them become useless) when I did these attempts at Creating PAX factors I did not take into account whether the fastest time in a class was set by a fast or a slow person. opr whether the car that did it ws at the max the rules allow. I didn't take that into account for my suggestions for a few reasons;

1) I wasn't at all events I gathered

2) it's impossible using Math to do that (as far as I've been told)

Now here's a few things I did consider (which is easy to do with Math)

1) the Average Spread between the Slowest (PAX time) class of the day and the fastest (PAX time) class (based on the winning times I had in the spreadsheet)

2) the distribution of slowest pax time of the day and the fastest pax time of the day. given the number of events I have there shouldn't be a skew towards one class or family.

Now when I looked at the 2004 numbers there was a huge skew towards the Stock classes. I have a few theories why but they ain't based on math, so therefore unimportant. 24 events ( of 31)had a fastest time after PAX set by the stock class. For Slowest class after PAX the results again were skewed towards MOD and SP levels(if my memory serves me correctly I have to look it up when I get infront of the computer with the data on it)

then after I did a bunch of number crunching and math I sent the info I had off to Wes as a suggestion (specifically I called these JPAX (Jason's PAX) to separate from current PAX numbers... (in the emails it really started to get confusing)) Anyways I made a suggestion (actually I made a few suggestions but then I settled for the best one). Wes and myself both know this suggestion didn't take into account various non-mathematical factors. For example if you won your class all year but sandbagged, your class would get a better PAX in this system. if you threw your heart and soul and every bit of sweat into every run trying to get first place (H-stock and DSS and a few others ring a bell in this category) then your class most likely consistently beat PAX. Your PAX number got worse in this case. My method of looking at the numbers is not perfect, But I know that Wes isn't going to use my numbers as I gave them to him. I knew that before starting the huge Math project. But this math did give Wes some insight into how the numbers should move.

I've just been crunching numbers. not making decisions.

[13inches]

Originally posted by gatherer
please email me I'll send it too you.
And where can I send such an email......?

[gatherer]

Originally posted by 13inches
And where can I send such an email......?

there is an email button at the bottom of my post. please use that.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by gatherer


Now here's a few things I did consider (which is easy to do with Math)

1) the Average Spread between the Slowest (PAX time) class of the day and the fastest (PAX time) class (based on the winning times I had in the spreadsheet)

2) the distribution of slowest pax time of the day and the fastest pax time of the day. given the number of events I have there shouldn't be a skew towards one class or family.

Now when I looked at the 2004 numbers there was a huge skew towards the Stock classes. I have a few theories why but they ain't based on math, so therefore unimportant. 24 events ( of 31)had a fastest time after PAX set by the stock class. For Slowest class after PAX the results again were skewed towards MOD and SP levels(if my memory serves me correctly I have to look it up when I get infront of the computer with the data on it)

then after I did a bunch of number crunching and math I sent the info I had off to Wes as a suggestion (specifically I called these JPAX (Jason's PAX) to separate from current PAX numbers... (in the emails it really started to get confusing)) Anyways I made a suggestion (actually I made a few suggestions but then I settled for the best one). Wes and myself both know this suggestion didn't take into account various non-mathematical factors. For example if you won your class all year but sandbagged, your class would get a better PAX in this system. if you threw your heart and soul and every bit of sweat into every run trying to get first place (H-stock and DSS and a few others ring a bell in this category) then your class most likely consistently beat PAX. Your PAX number got worse in this case. My method of looking at the numbers is not perfect, But I know that Wes isn't going to use my numbers as I gave them to him. I knew that before starting the huge Math project. But this math did give Wes some insight into how the numbers should move.

I've just been crunching numbers. not making decisions.


There is a REAL danger in using past performances in our country to determine what pax should be.
That just indicated what people did driving those cars, in those classes...

PAX really is a theoretical measure of the "best car to have in a given class", prepped perfectly, in high-grip conditions, driven to the absolute limit (driven perfectly)

Then... it compared all of the classes based on these same assumptions. Honestly... at any one event... you MAY get one driver in the scenario where they are driving the car 99.5% perfectly and it is perfectly setup.

I'm worried that you will be manipulating the #'s too much. You claim that DSS and H-Stock were beating pax because they were trying harder??? IF they can easily beat pax routinely... either all the good drivers are in these classes and the rest of the field is crap... or the pax factors are too favorable.

Competition has nothing to do with pax. Hence it's use. (when there is no competition / and for comparison)

This country has MAYBE 25 drivers that can hang in the SCCA at the national level... and they are in 15 different classes... but we can't judge if they are driving to the absolute limit of a perfectly prepped car for that day!

The current setup / #'s are PRETTY good. ("close to ballpark" for most class comparisons)

The way to adjust our current PAX levels is to analyse if there are any significant gaps / spacings... (or all spacings for that matter) and determine that on our typical, theoretical 45 sec. course... can the ideal, perfectly setup and driven CSS car be .855 of a second faster than the ideal, perfectly setup and driven DSS car?

Or can a B-stock car in the same scenario be 2.34 sec. quicker than the h-stock one?

Or can a D-stock car in the same scenario be .81 sec. quicker than the h-stock one?

You can't use real-world examples to refine... unless you know the courses, conditions and drivers IN DEPTH. And then it's a judgement call... and then ONLY if those drivers are perfect or even capable of being perfect. And then... if he was on a different tire... or different state of tune... might he have been faster? Not even THEY know!

[tanney]

We could leave it the same as last year....... Turn a blind eye and say, well it worked before, sorta.

We went through all these discussion many, many, many, many, many times (here and in the workshop).....!!!

What's your solution. Critizing a system is useless UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME SUGGESTIONS TO MAKE IT BETTER!

Have you ever heard the story about the boi that called wolf? In this case PAX seems to be the wolf.

[gatherer]

the most Ideal system would be to have the best car prepared for each class and set to the max of the rules for each class gathered up and have 20 different drivers take 3 runs each in each car. the bexst time of the 3 runs in each car for that driver would be gathered up and each driver would be a different event. Basically PAX equalizes the different cars so the PAX factors should be set in such a way that Driver 1 driving the cars in all the different classes should after pax is taken into account score the same across the board.

the problem with that is we don't have access to cars from all the classes and it would be hard to have 1,500 runs in a day.

anyways the Method of number crunching I used is the same that SCCA PAX guys use. I spoke to them before thinking about doing this. Also They don't just use Topeka (which surprised me) they use Events from around the USA and National tour events. Of course their national tour events are most likely to have filled classes across the board. Thats one thing we have to really work on. the benifit of sticking with the same rules year after year is we can continue to gather data from these events and therefore continue to refine the numbers.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by tanney
We could leave it the same as last year....... Turn a blind eye and say, well it worked before, sorta.

We went through all these discussion many, many, many, many, many times (here and in the workshop).....!!!

What's your solution. Critizing a system is useless UNLESS YOU HAVE SOME SUGGESTIONS TO MAKE IT BETTER!

Have you ever heard the story about the boi that called wolf? In this case PAX seems to be the wolf.


Well... you are asking for my help (or telling me to put up or shut up) so I will take a stab at it...

I will provide new #'s based on last year's rulebook for classing and car-prep.

My rational suggestions were disregarded at the workshop... Namely (x/2)-1 for events that count towards overall... this makes a LOT of sense because of weather, lot and course conditions... all of which MASSIVELY dictate how the pax scoring for that event will play out. (as well as my classing suggestion)

If it's only the best 3/8 or 4/9 events... what's the problem?
In the 5/8 scenario... RWD cars... large cars, high-power cars, etc are potentially more disadvantaged based on conditions (lot, weather and course design).

Anyhow...
I can take a stab at #'s that will be a SLIGHT refinement of current ones... because damned if I can tell how cars will compare within .2 of a sec... so all we can do is be "close enough"

And there are obvious outliers... like H-stock and DSS. Mod will be a joke... so those #'s won't be particularly relevant because we haven't even seen a properly maximized car in Canada besided the Phantom in Vancouver. Not enough data / frame of reference.

I will take into account good conditions, a course that is open / flowy with maybe 1 technical gate / maneuver and say 45 sec. A tighter corner and a stretch where SOME power can be put down (1 full gear-pull) Nothing too extreme is the idea.

If you think about it that way... they are pretty close... with MAYBE 5-6 "refinements" and 3-4 of those are apparant already...

And last year btw... it DID work... Steve won overall on PAX... and I think he IS a top-calibre driver. Whether or not the next 15 or their order were the MOST appropriate is debateable... and all I can hope to influence with minor manipulations / adjustments of pax #'s.

The danger is that we have an obvious class that a driver can drive at 98% and easily win on pax when someone is at 99.5% and losing 50% of the time. That's when the "emporor has no clothes" and the PAX system falls.

Seeing as no one liked my classing system at theworkshop - no supporters (although it was held in relatively high acclaim online) I'll take a stab at PAX. I am not re-creating a system of comparison... just minor shifts (like .006 - .008 at the most!)

But even then... they are questionable because they are so minor are obviously and realistically debateable by anyone. I'll provide my input to Wes personally... and he can do as he wishes... as we have placed the responsibility in his capable hands.

Does anyone else agree with this in principle?
Pax as a system is as good as we gan get. So refine it as close as possible... try to take the conditions, extreme car differences course setup variables out of the equasion as much as possible and then shut-up about it and drive the wheels off!

[miataboi]

JUST for reference...

http://racing.kos.net/soloforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3722&perpage=15&highlight=steve%20overall&pagenumber=6

Yep, of course there are no difference at the class level, but overall is an entirely different ball game. Most of the top 10 did not place in the top ten under our current rules.

Steve did indeed win the overall under pax;
The top 25 looks something like this (well exactly like this);

1 Stephen T SCS 03 Mazda Miata 597.926
2 Ralph O SGS 99 Honda Prelude 597.855
3 Wes T RDSS 92 Honda Civic Si 590.430
4 Marshall M RDSS 97 Honda Prelude 590.409
5 Brian S N SDS 03 Mazdaspeed Protege 589.414
6 Robert T N SCS 00 Mazda Miata 587.098
7 Tony M PDSP 97 VW Golf GTi 586.981
8 Jay W RCSS 01 Mazda Miata 584.823
9 Andrew C PDSP 01 VW Golf GTi 583.881
10 Shane G RDSS 95 Acura Integra 583.452
11 Simon S SHS 00 Mazda Protege 583.387
12 Paul K PCSP 91 Mazda Miata 582.926
13 Daniel F RESS 02 Subaru WRX 579.575
14 Jason D SHS 93 Honda Civic 579.443
15 Joe T PFSP 00 Subaru Legacy GT 577.941
16 Alain H SAS 04 Subaru STi 577.633
17 Mike B SHS 91 Isuzu Impulse 576.912
18 Tony K PESP 02 Subaru WRX 576.876
19 Mike A PDSP 00 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS 575.041
20 Ryan K N SHS 04 Toyota Echo 573.740
21 Doug L RDSS 03 Mazda MazdaSpeed 573.694
22 Ivano D N SHS 00 Subaru Legacy 573.543
23 Trung D N SAS 04 Subaru Impreza STI 572.306
24 Stefan L RDSS 01 Dodge Neon 572.254
25 Eric R SCS 01 Mazda Miata 572.182

[gatherer]

since we are comparing top 25 (not that I think this is even close to the best way to determine if the PAX numbers are working or not)

using my numbers for Mod, SP, SS and 2004 Stock Numbers (Wes will be able to confirm this as he built these results after I asked for them (being curious))

1) Paul K
2) Ralph O
3) Stephen T
4) Joe T
5) Brian S
6) Robert T
7) Jay W
8) Daniel F
9) Tony M
10) Andrew C
11) Marshall M
12) Wes T
13) Simon S
14) Tony K
15) David S
16) Jason D
17) Tod F
18) Alain H
19) Mike A
20) Shane G
21) Peter L
22) Mike B
23) Peter W
24) Ryan K
25) Ivano D

well these results are by no means conclusive. the top 5 H stock drivers appear in the top 25. the way these were calculated is every event was PAXed and then only one person scored 100 points for the overall, exactly the same way as will be done next year.

either way Wes has come up with something other then these numbers and I'm sure he'll share when it's time too.

However I don't think the top 25 is conclusive of anything. if all classes were full, with fully prepped cars the top 25 should be all the class winners.

[tanney]

If it's only the best 3/8 or 4/9 events... what's the problem?

Then a competitor can run two classes and potentially take home two class titles and a first and second overall.

No debate, 9 events, 5 count, end of story. This was discussed at the workshop and agreed apon.

I can take a stab at #'s that will be a SLIGHT refinement of current ones... because damned if I can tell how cars will compare within .2 of a sec... so all we can do is be "close enough" That's exactly what I have been doing. Jason's calculations were based on 31 events Canada wide. Some of the numbers (no offense Jason) were totally out there, unusable, because there wasn't an ideal car/driver combination to use.

FYI, you keep saying thhat DSS and HS are way off the marker....... DSS and HS had the closest competition at most of the events last year, which drives the competitor to be faster. Put me in FSS and see how fast I go. Ask Ralph how fast he went last year....... 8.5 tenths?!?!? Maybe. You only need to go as fast as your competition dictate.

I raced karts agains Dave McKnight Jr. (the 2001 IMSA overall Champion) in 1999 and 2000 and he once told me that you should NEVER give 100%. You NEVER show your full hand. That way you have that last little bit, when you REALLY need it......

I await your numbers!

[miataboi]

Originally posted by gatherer
since we are comparing top 25 (not that I think this is even close to the best way to determine if the PAX numbers are working or not)

Isn't that the litmus test? Istn't that what we are trying to determine? The best driver? Overall???

Originally posted by gatherer

well these results are by no means conclusive. the top 5 H stock drivers appear in the top 25.

What's wrong with the top 5 h-stock drivers being in the top 25??? That could be influenced by 2 factors. Good drivers... or bad pax # for that class. Or somewhere inbetween (the likely actual scenario)


Originally posted by gatherer

either way Wes has come up with something other then these numbers and I'm sure he'll share when it's time too.


That would be nice to see... seeing as we all voted on overall-by-pax... and now what "PAX" means seems to now be different. We did agree that it wouldn't be radically changed... just refined.

Originally posted by gatherer

However I don't think the top 25 is conclusive of anything. if all classes were full, with fully prepped cars the top 25 should be all the class winners.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Are you considering that not everyone is driving at, or even close to 100%
:confused:

YOU DO NOT "NEED" TO BE GOOD TO WIN YOUR CLASS in many cases.

We're talking absolutely good... vs. good relative to something.

[miataboi]

Originally posted by tanney
Then a competitor can run two classes and potentially take home two class titles and a first and second overall.


oh the horror.

[tanney]

and now what "PAX" means seems to now be different. WTF are you talking about?

[tanney]

Are you considering that not everyone is driving at, or even close to 100% Yes, that's what we are and have been saying!

[tanney]

oh the horror. It's not going to happen, so drop it and e-mail me your numbers!

[miataboi]

Originally posted by tanney

That's exactly what I have been doing. Jason's calculations were based on 31 events Canada wide. Some of the numbers (no offense Jason) were totally out there, unusable, because there wasn't an ideal car/driver combination to use.


Can you send me Jason's #'s to refine then... as it seems like a more refined version of what we have... rather than reinvent the wheel?

Originally posted by tanney


I raced karts agains Dave McKnight Jr. (the 2001 IMSA overall Champion) in 1999 and 2000 and he once told me that you should NEVER give 100%. You NEVER show your full hand. That way you have that last little bit, when you REALLY need it......

I await your numbers!

That's for road-racing.
This is solo.

[13inches]

Originally posted by tanney
Then a competitor can run two classes and potentially take home two class titles and a first and second overall.

Err.....under the old system: yes. Under the 2005 system they could win 2 classes, but wouldnt they still be scored only once for overall since the two scoring systems are exclusive?

:confused:

[tanney]

Can you send me Jason's #'s to refine then No, I said that we weren't using his numbers.

I have used his INPUT to modify last years numbers.


Do you think I went as fast as I could at every event last year? Not a chance! Only as fast as I needed to, at some events anyway.

[gatherer]

Originally posted by miataboi

That's for road-racing.
This is solo.

I think it still applies... for example in the first 2 or 3 runs I'd be out on top .. having given it my all. the others knowing this knew what times they had to beat. Not all suggestions someomne makes gets passed. I suggested a set number of runs in a day no more no less. it got shot down at the workshop. move on.

Wes,

no Offense taken. Hell I looked at the numbers I came up with and checked and re-checked my calculations.

Again Wes has choosen to use my numbers only as a guide they will not be the numbers used. There isn't a large enough sample size yet to be fully effective. in time and with the more events gathered, the sample size increases. With an increased sample size the numbers start to move to a balance.

As for the top 25 thing. Simply put PAX is to equalize Classes not drivers. so looking at the top drivers and determining if they are the real top drivers of Ontario is Not the same as looking at the FTD for each class and determining if after PAX is applied there is a skew towards one family or class. and then adjusting the PAX factor in the direction that removes or reduces that skew

[gatherer]

all this and I've yet to recieve even one request for the compiled tmes.

[13inches]

Originally posted by gatherer
all this and I've yet to recieve even one request for the compiled tmes. I emailed you this morning!

:mad:

[gatherer]

thats interesting I just tried send myself an email from here as well ... using the email button. and I got nothing... checked my settings and they do point to my bell mail box ... (which is where I am now).

I'll try using the email button on your post and seeing if I can send you something.

*edit* sorry you've said for people not to send you email.

[miataboi]

If you could send me what you have so that I could enter my prospective #'s and generate a top __ list... that would be helpful...

otherwise... I'll have to clean-slate it a bit...

[gatherer]

I'll need an email address

[TOYSRUS]

[
Do you think I went as fast as I could at every event last year? Not a chance! Only as fast as I needed to, at some events anyway. [/B]

Wes, I am completely shocked! In my 19 years of Autocrossing I have NEVER heard of anyone intentionally sandbagging a run.(Pro Solo excluded). Sure, you might run at 8/10ths on a run to ensure it's clean but solo II is about running balls to the wall right out of the box. What possible benifit could there be from not attempting to run your best?

Bill

[TOYSRUS]

ps. any help with the MOD paxes would be greatly appreciated!:D

[tanney]

What possible benifit could there be from not attempting to run your best? In some situations why go faster than need be? Specifically with previous years rules where it was all about backup times. If you have control of the class, next step is to duplicate your best run to score maximum points.

PAX for, specifically CMOD, is hard to guage. With all the number crunching, CMOD seems to score between 92 and 96 at almost all events. As was discussed a couple of months ago, if you were to convince 1-2 seconds more out of your car, you'd be in the ball park. If I remember correctly, you said that could be possible, no?

[TOYSRUS]

Originally posted by tanney
In some situations why go faster than need be? Specifically with previous years rules where it was all about backup times. If you have control of the class, next step is to duplicate your best run to score maximum points.

PAX for, specifically CMOD, is hard to guage. With all the number crunching, CMOD seems to score between 92 and 96 at almost all events. As was discussed a couple of months ago, if you were to convince 1-2 seconds more out of your car, you'd be in the ball park. If I remember correctly, you said that could be possible, no?


Your memory serves you well Obiwan, but keep in mind that at least 1 second can also be convinced out of 99.534% of the other MOD-less cars running out there. (Should they also prep accordingly). So why not split the difference and give us talented CMOD competitors a chance at the BIG SHOW?? (read:Shootout)
:)

[tanney]

So why not split the difference and give us talented CMOD competitors a chance at the BIG SHOW?? (read:Shootout)

Well, there are BIG plans for this year's shoot-out. Planning is underway already and if things work out, the Solo 1 guys will be out in hoards this year. (Tony, don't you dare spill the beans....)

[Wedge]

Originally posted by tanney
Well, there are BIG plans for this year's shoot-out. Planning is underway already and if things work out, the Solo 1 guys will be out in hoards this year. (Tony, don't you dare spill the beans....)

Come on! Throw us a freaking bean here! :confused:

[gatherer]

Originally posted by Wedge
Come on! Throw us a freaking bean here! :confused:

why??? they never have before... it's always been a surprise as to whats coming out to be played with

[Tony Kloosterma]

Beans?:rolleyes:

What beans?:D

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Tony

[Wedge]

Fine, if you won't tell us, then I guess we'll just have to figure it out for ourselves...

Originally posted by tanney
Well, there are BIG plans for this year's shoot-out. Planning is underway already and if things work out, the Solo 1 guys will be out in hoards this year. (Tony, don't you dare spill the beans....)

Hmmm... what could they possibly be planning that would be of great interest to the Solo 1 guys? Will this year's shootout be on a track instead of a parking lot? Is that it?

[ShaneG]

Targa Ontario ...with cones:D

[gatherer]

hey 13inches, Miataboi,

you guys come up with anything? I'm curious.

[tanney]

you guys come up with anything? I'm curious.
Yep, so am I. I have not left my e-mail client in two days, anticipating revolutionary things....:)

[13inches]

Don't expect much from me.

I keep coming up with "13"..... :confused:

[holliko]

Originally posted by tanney
When it's done. It's not easy getting 9 different clubs to set none conflicting dates together. Almost ever club is invoved in more than one series (Solo 1, club events, regional series etc).

The CAC rule book is in draft form and being reviewed. Once the review is finsihed and the CAC rule book finalized, I will add the Regional series section and release it.

There are no major changes (that I have noticed yet) from last year, mostly formating..

THe schedule should be out by the end of the month at the latest and the rule book will probably be three weeks.

thanks in advance...

[miataboi]

How are tires measured for stock and SS classes in respect to the fenders?

[tanney]

See the following thread

Rule Book Announcement (http://racing.kos.net/soloforums/showthread.php?threadid=5410)

[holliko]

Thanks Wes.....