Roll Cage?

[Nabs]

Hey all. Anyone know of a place to get a full casc legal roll cage installed into a honda civic? I don't want to spend more than $1,500.:) So far, the only place i know of that does a good job at a decent price is csc racing in newmarket. any help would be appreciated.:)

[Bubblecar]

"So far, the only place i know of that does a good job at a decent price is csc racing in newmarket"

And they are Solo sponsors - so why would you even want to find someone else?

Rule number 1 - whenever possible - support your sponsors (or series sponsors). . . even if it may mean driving an extra 30 or 40 minutes.

CSC Racing has been supportive of SOLO and motorsports in general for years - you can't find better people.

Nick

[Nabs]

Yeah, you make a very good point. I just thought i would check out all my options.

[Dave]

I personally used Ronnie at O'Brien Motorsports (416-604-0477) because he gives you the option of chromoly tubing, which I wanted to use so that I could preserve the weight advantage my little tin can Civic hatchback has. At that time CSC and Mantis Racing (the other two shops I know of that make roll cages) did not work with chromoly, but this may have changed since then. Give them a call at:

CSC Racing
125A Harry Walker Pkwy
Newmarket, ON
Phone: (905) 954-0520
Contact: Ralph or Jennifer

Mantis Racing
1029 Speers Road
Oakville, ON
Phone: (905) 844-6219
Contact: Ernie

O'Brien Motorsports
Steeles and 410 area
Phone: (416) 604-0477
Fax: (416) 604-1959
Contact: Ronnie

[Bubblecar]

Dave,

Question about chromoly cages.

My understanding (limited that it may be) is that chromoly is actually heavier in weight than steel. But - it is considerably stronger - therefore you can make a lighter cage because you can get away with thinner tubing.

Complication is that many race series (CASC for example) require a specified diameter tubing - no matter the material and therefore make chromoly - not just more expensive - but heavier.

Any idea if this is correct?

Nick

[Dave]

Nick,

My metallurgic (sounds like an allergy) knowledge is likely no better than yours, though from what I've read chromoly and mild steel are basically the same weight. As you point out, the advantage of chromoly is that it's stronger and you can therefore use a smaller diameter tubing as well as a thinner tubing wall and have an equally strong cage as one made from mild steel. Most rulebooks I know of differentiate between mild steel and chromoly, as does the Solo 1 rulebook in section 2.4.10. (page 7 of the new rulebook). The SCCA does not, however, recognize the difference between chromoly and mild steel in their 2000 rulebook, though that may have changed and I don't have a more up-to-date version of their rules.

To illustrate in terms of the Solo 1 rulebook, my car falls into the 1501-2500 lbs. category, so a cage in mild steel is required to be 1.75'' dia. and .120 wall. If chromoly is used, cars in this same weight category must use 1.625'' dia. and .095 wall. These regs are exactly the same as the Ice Racing regs for rollbars. Regional Racing also differentiates between chromoly and mild steel in Appendix 0 of the regs I believe.

Hope this helps,
Dave

[Dave]

Nick, just a bit of follow up and clarification. What I posted above about Solo 1 and Ice Race regs is for ROLLBARS, not ROLLCAGES. For rollcages, both Solo 1 and Ice Racing defer to the 2002 CASC-OR Race Regulations (found on-line at the CASC website) in Appendix O.

For rollcages, CASC requires the following (copy from Appendix O):

Car Weight Mild Steel Alloy Steel
Up to 1500 lbs. 1.375x.095 1.375x.080
1500-2500 lbs. 1.500x.095 1.375x.095
Over 2500 lbs. 1.500x.120 1.500x.095
Or 1.750x.095

Hope this helps more,

Dave

[Nabs]

thanks! Actually, Ronny was the first person i talked to about a cage, but with all the sentras in his shop for that new series, he said the earliest my car could go in would be may.

About chromoly, According to the 2002 CASCRace regulations, "The roll cage shall be of seamless or ERW or DOM mild steel tubing (SAE 1010, 1020, 1025) or equivalent, or alloy steel tubing (SAE 4125, 4130). It is recommended that mild steel tubing be used as alloys present difficulties in welding and must be normalized to relieve stress. Proof of the use of alloy steel is the responsibility of the Entrant".

Is this because chromoly actually becomes weaker when rolled? I remember speaking to Ralph at csc and i could swear he mentioned he would not do chromoly because of these reasons. any thoughts?

[alexb]

From my understanding chromolly must be heat treated after welding to reduce stress on the joints.But i have been wrong once or twice.

[Dave]

Nabs, (Nabeel?), the whole chromoly normalization of welds issue is fraught with misinformation and misconception of the issue. You'll often hear tales of chromoly rollcages needing to be heated up to "normalize" the welds, but in reality you do not need to heat up the entire cage, just the welds themselves. Re-heating the welds allows them to be normalized (strengthened forming a solid bond with the chromoly tubing), but the chromoly tubing itself does not need to be normalized. The reason normalization is needed is because chromoly is so much more rigid (higher tensile strength) so in a rollover the welds are put under heavier loads because the tubing itself doesn't deflect as much energy as a more flexible mild steel tube. A skilled welder who has experience normalizing chromoly welds can more than compensate for this issue. Ronnie has seen many of his chromoly cages tested by regional race cars that have crashed heavily. He has yet to see a single weld fail on any of his chromoly cages. If you've ever seen Ronnie's welds, you'll understand why. The guy is an artist and his work is absolutely immaculate.

The reason the SCCA discourages the use of chromoly stems from a few incidences where welds failed on chromoly cages in the U.S.. However, all of these incidences have been traced to poor welds that were not normalized (ie. the welder was negligent or ignorant of the techniques required to build a proper chromoly cage). The SCCA has chosen to err on the side of caution because they feel they can't go around checking everyone's welds. To CASC's credit, they do recognize the benefits of chromoly and that a professional can build a perfectly strong chromoly cage that will hold up every bit as well under rollover conditions as mild steel.

So to answer your question in a really long-winded way, chromoly does NOT become weaker when rolled. In fact, it's because of it's higher tensile strength that you can make a rollcage out of it using smaller diameter tubing and thinner walled tubing. This does not change under rollover conditions. Chromoly is stonger, it's just that the welds must be equally strong in order to avoid failing when put through the extremely heavy stresses of a rollover situation.

Hope this helps,
Dave

[Civic13]

Does anyone know if the chromoly cages in the old Honda Michelin Civics is CASC-OR legal? Also, does anyone know who built these cages? My car is a 1988. Thanks.

Vince

[alexb]

Nabs,
Try Raven performance...(905)477-1800 John Dimoff is your contact.They are a BMW shop but do work on any race related thinges.Ihave talked to John about a cage install and have seen some of the work they do and have been quite impressed.By the way they use Chromoly on their cages and are quite confident about structural integrity.
I also talked to Ronnie about a cage but was told May as the earlyest.John is talking early April.

[JGraves]

Originally posted by Civic13
Does anyone know if the chromoly cages in the old Honda Michelin Civics is CASC-OR legal? Also, does anyone know who built these cages? My car is a 1988. Thanks.

Vince

Vince, from the CSC Racing website (www.cscracing.com):

1974 saw the company make its first foray into the broader world of road-racing. Honda Canada selected CSC to build the roll cages for the new showroom-stock Honda/BF Goodrich (later Honda/Michelin) racing series. CSC continued to build up to 75 Honda cages a year, until the series ended in the early 1990's. The innovative - and very successful - Honda/Michelin series was quickly accompanied by other, similar road-racing series such as the General Motors/Players Challenge, Rothmans/Porsche Turbo Cup, Firestone Firehawk, and many others. At one Toronto lndy, 29 of the 33 IROC Camaros on the grid had been prepared with roll cages from CSC!

[Dave]

Nick, just to add a bit more detail to earlier posts, all steel alloys have the same inherent weight. In other words, in the same diameter, length and wall thickness ERW, mild steel and chromoly will all weigh exactly the same. The only difference between these types of steel alloys commonly used in rollcage construction is their relative tensile strengths. ERW is the weakest but cheapest, mild steel is in the middle in both strength and price, and chromoly is the strongest and most expensive. By adding a tiny bit of chromium and Molybendum to mild steel (combined this alloy is generically refered to as chromoly) you make the material stronger which in turn allows you to use smaller diameter and thinner walled tubing for an equally strong rollcage (which equates to a significantly lighter cage).

This being the case, whoever told you chromoly weighs more than mild steel must be spanked several times with a wet noodle. Still, if the rulebook you're operating under doesn't allow chromoly to be used in smaller diameter and wall thickness than ERW or mild steel then the potential benefit of this material is lost. You'd be spending more money for a cage of equal weight in this situation, but thankfully the CASC does recognize the higher tensile strength of chromoly which does allow competitors to pony up a few extra bucks for a lighter but equally strong rollcage.

Dave

[Taylor]

Ack..OBrien? May? Damn.. I really need to get my shiznit together.