Racers in Touring?

[Nabs]

Just out of pure curiousity, how many people are actually racing in Touring this year(2005)?!?!

I should race atleast a few events.

[23Racer]

Me.

[Director]

Me too!

[kmccartan]

as many as i can afford

[metric1]

I'm in

[John Powell]

Me too, but I'll probably be starting late (again) due to some issues (again). :rolleyes:

[Dave]

I'll be doing at least 2-3 weekends.

[Steve Moore]

count me in too

[Lude]

We're in

[rmicroys]

My car, yes, with either Mike or Sherissa driving.

[Bubblecar]

"IF" all goes well - we may try to run 2 cars.

One in touring and one in GT.

[ROTARY ROCKET]

Well, since we did the math:

98 Williams BTCC Renault Laguna (JC)
99 Williams BTCC Renault Laguna (KM)

320 + HP (give or take)
SQ box
17" wheels
4 piston (instead of 8 piston water cooled)

2100 lbs !!! (less then BTCC weight)

Ken is right, looks like we can win a few races.

We are in !:D

[Dave]

BTCC cars get to run at 2100 lbs?!?! What's the displacement of those engines? Pistons per caliper? Rotor diameter?

[rmicroys]

That confuses me too.

16V 1998cc DOHC, with 1 pot calipers all around, 285mm front brakes,226mm rear brakes and a fully independant suspension (that car does NOT have a torsion rear axle - I've looked under it!) has to weigh 2172 without driver. What are you doing to get the calculator to return a 2100# race weight?

AHHA! I see! Try using the correct row! I'm betting you're using the row for cars under 1600cc! Now, unless the pistons are OEM size (under .040 over) and the only way they got the engine to 2.0l is by stroking it, then I see maybe a loophole. That would be uber scary. What block does that car come with and what is it's CURRENT bore and stroke?

[Bubblecar]

Guys,

I have little doubt that if this situation (BTCC cars) turned out to be real - the series would make some impromtu ruling to address the particular circumstances.

Having spoken with a few people - I'm sure there are other non-standard cars that fall between the cracks and would need to be handled individually.

Note - let's not run our threads together - this is probably more appropriate for the other "weights thread".

[WRL]

Maybe we made a calculation mistake. Here's the numbers we used. 1998 cc, 4cyl, 16 valves, 2cams, 6pot frnt, 4 pot rear, 325mm frnt, 275mm rear, 0.9 suspension. The total weight the calculator gives me is 2152lbs!

Yes Rob, the car does not have a independent rear suspension. The Laguna had to retain the original suspension design. I believe it was the only Super Tourer not to have fully indepenent rear suspension. Needless to say we will probally reduce our brake sizes even further. Maybe Rob's brake setup is the way to go (285, 226, 1pot) the car weighs 1954 lbs.

[Bubblecar]

Looking through the rulebook - the BTCC/Laguna is probably handled by this section - (Bolding is mine to highlight the point)
==========
6.0 VEHICLE CLASSIFICATION
6.1 INCLUSION

6.1.1 . Only vehicles listed on this list will be eligible to compete in the Touring GT Championship.
. . .
6.2.4 All non-standard engine/ vehicle combinations must apply for classification via the Championship
administrator.

6.2 RACE WEIGHT

6.2.1 Touring Car Administration will establish a minimum race weight for each eligible vehicle make and
model using the latest version of the Race Ontario weight calculator and the technical data given by
the competitor for his vehicle on the declaration and specification sheet.
==========

So if a car is not currently on the list - the weight calculator doesn't apply.

[Dave]

makes sense to me, Nick, since surely the weight calculator was never intended to capture performance potential of professionally built BTCC cars, but rather the more typical regional race machines.

[Director]

Originally posted by WRL
Maybe we made a calculation mistake. Here's the numbers we used. 1998 cc, 4cyl, 16 valves, 2cams, 6pot frnt, 4 pot rear, 325mm frnt, 275mm rear, 0.9 suspension. The total weight the calculator gives me is 2152lbs!


Maybe since the car was Williams designed and built you could make it run 3300lbs.




Just kidding.

It's just that I'd still like a chance at a podium with my little Nissan someday. I guess all my podiums will be in the rain.

[WRL]

Nick,

You’re right, the Laguna’s are not on the list of approved cars, however one can easily argue other makes and models that the Laguna’s competed against are and therefore the Laguna’s should be classified the same way. I also don’t understand what is not standard about the engine/vehicle combination? As far as the weight calculator is concerned, why wouldn't they use the calculator? Rule 6.2.1 is clear on how the weight will be determined and that is using the current weight calculator, which we did.

What’s the problem with the cars being built/prepped by a professional race team? What difference does that make? The rules indicate all modifications are free, so who cares who prepped/built the car. What level of build/prep quality is too much? Is this series just for home built cars?

Sorry if I sound like an As*, not trying to be.

[23Racer]

Ken's right. Let's assume that the base weight is correct at 2152 lbs. Add 150 lbs penalty to run 235 40 17's. That takes their base weight to 2302. Add 200 lbs for a driver and that makes his car a 2500 lb race car using a substantially smaller brake size than the cars do at present. The horsepower figure is higher than most of the previous runners have had, but if I had the coin I could get a top builder to create my motors as well. The only issue on the base weight may be that the motor's basic blocks and heads are only loosely based on what Renault produced and Gunther will have to decide if and what the penalty is for custom heads and blocks.

Ken and Joe will be struggling to set up their ultra stiff cars to run on a DOT tire and realistically I wouldn't be surprised to see the cars running in the low 1:34's to low 1:35's. They will be quicker but not that much different than the Kensai/ Krikorian/ Dipchand cars from last year. Who knows, you just might beat them in a race and what an ego stroke that would be.

My belief is that they will do extremely well initially but in reality only somewhat quicker than the Kensai/ Chin/ Dipchand cars from last year. Add rewards weight and they could be back in the 37's struggling with the rest of us.

I say bring 'em on and lets go. The cars don't break any of our rules, they are just prepared to the max of our rules. Just a different car at the front of the grid. I'd do it to if I could afford it.

[S Nicol]

We 're in

and legal to what Nick said. Our car is in the Touring List.

We'll give the Laguna's a run.

[Dave]

hot damn, another former BTCC car? Lordy, lordy, lordy, I'm going to get a whoopin' real bad! :)

[Nabs]

Scott, you've been holding out on me! :)

[Bubblecar]

Scott,

Will be great to see you out there and I look forward to racing against you again and continuing the Honda vs Nissan thing. ;)

[Trackside]

Nick, shouldn't you have at least put the photo into PhotoShop and edited the name on the side first or have you changed your last name???

[ROTARY ROCKET]

Quote:

makes sense to me, Nick, since surely the weight calculator was never intended to capture performance potential of professionally built BTCC cars, but rather the more typical regional race machines.

This is exactly our point, and we understand that the people involved in putting together the weight calculator have put in many hours of hard work. Since the weight calculator was intended for home built regional race machines, this calculator was designed to punish those who have invested time and money in their racing.

It is clear that, someone thinks that the bigger brakes will have an huge advantage over stock brakes, and this was demonstrated by plugging in numbers for smaller rotors and calipers.

These cars run on R compund tyres, with the amount of grip generated by these Toyos, the bigger brakes would lock up the tires quicker, there isn't enough grip in the tire to justify more brakes.

So this calulator in my opinion is to deter teams that have better equipment from competeing. From seeing the response on this thread, professionaly built cars should be penalized. This is sad! I guess this is the same reason why a dry break is seen as an advantage as well!:confused:

[Nabs]

Ok, so, we have 13 cars commited to run in Touring this year and some are not running a full year including myself. Anyone else we're missing? Seems like a small field...

[malcolm]

nabs, you need to remember that not everyone in touring is on the forum. Whatever is on here, multiply it from anywhere from 1.5 to 2, and you should get an approximation.

As for the BTCC cars, why not say sequential gearboxes are a 100 lb penalty? Maybe an additional 100 lbs for relocating the engine behind the front axle-line.

Just an innocent thought from someone that's out of the loop. ;)

[23Racer]

Malcolm, I think that you are right as I know of at least 8 other teams/ cars in the Metro Toronto area that haven't responded as those teams don't frequent this forum. I would expect at least 5 - 8 more cars than last year on average with a peak in the mid 40's. I am actually excited to hear that 13 cars have responded to this thread. This is very positive news.

The cool thing that I am hearing is that the quality of car is continually going up. Looking forward to this year.

[Shark]

me !!!

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by TonyV
I was actually thinking of try out road racing but after reading is thread, I'm definaitly out.
I know nobody is going to get rich racing in this series and its mostly for fun, but as a racer with a 9 to 5 job and supporting my racing myself, I don't think runing in the back all day long is going to be any fun at all.
My $.02.

Hey... I resemble that statement! If more people have attitudes like that, then sure, the bottom of the TGT in Touring will be thin. But if you really want to come out and have fun, and your laptimes are more likely to fall near a 1m41 or a 1m45 then your going to have lots of fun in GTC or GTD.

[Bubblecar]

TonyV

That's why we have the GT (alphabet) sprints as an option. Bring what you got - run in a time bracket with similar level cars - keep the costs to a reasonable limit and everyone has someone to race with?

Would be good to see you out there.

[23Racer]

So Tony, if you don't want to run in the Touring GT Championship because it is too competitive then run in the Ontario Challange Cup. That Championship is based on lap times and not car prep. You are certain to be able to find a class that you and your car will be competitive in.

Your signature says that you "Wanna Race". There is a class for you to be able to win in. A little competition shouldn't scare you off. Check in the race rules section. Anything goes in Ontario Challange Cup Sprint races.

By the way there is no prize money in the TGTC, just the ability to sell sponsorship.

[TonyV]

I might've jumped the gun, as I'm still very new to CASC. I do get a bit confused with all the different series. But this is a quote from the Race Ontario home page under the CASC Ontario Touring GT Championship title, "The series allows amateur racers to experience professional-style racing at an affordable level".
As someone new, I wasn't expecting to see a $100,000 car(s) in the same seires. That dosen't sound very amater too me.
Anyways I'll learn the "ropes" by watching and listening to other drivers and teams and by competing in SoLo 1 for this year.

BTW no one was supposed to see that post. It was only up for a minute before I deleted it. Boy u guys are quick.;)

[Steve Moore]

Just out of curiosity, how many cars in Touring run around the 1:41-1:44 bracket? Are there going to be enough cars to play with or is that group becoming extinct?

I will be out with my Swift this year, which should put me into that time bracket group, is it worth it for me to run in TGT or will I have more competition in GT Sprints?

Steve

[rmicroys]

Well, say, between 8-10?

Laptimes of the 1m41 to 1m45 range from the alms weekend:

Ken McCartan 01:41.5
Daniel Blanchette 01:41.8
Andrew Elliott 01:42.7
Roberto Guerra 01:43.0
John Bondar 01:43.1
S.Microys / R.Microys 01:43.4
Perry Iannuzzi 01:44.4
Shaun de Jager 01:44.8

laptimes from Celebration:

John Bondar 01:41.0
Jeff Lorriman 01:41.4
R.Microys / M.White 01:41.9
Clifton Daley 01:42.4
G.Houston / I.Houston 01:43.1
John Powell 01:43.6
Gregory Chang 01:43.6
Perry Iannuzzi 01:44.5
Terry Mueller 01:45.8

Lots of people to play with! No excuses! The fields even get bigger in GTC, and the more people that come out to play in GTC, then even more come out. The bigger the grids, the more people then that want to come out and play. It's sort of a chicken/egg thing. Need grids to have people racing but people don't come out racing unless the grids are big. Sigh.

[Steve Moore]

Thanks, I was just looking up times at Mylaps. Im just trying to decide where to play this year. I want to run TGT Series, I dont care if Im at the back of the pack as long as I have company lol.:)

[rmicroys]

Originally posted by TonyV
As someone new, I wasn't expecting to see a $100,000 car(s) in the same seires. That dosen't sound very amater too me.
Anyways I'll learn the "ropes" by watching and listening to other drivers and teams and by competing in SoLo 1 for this year.

BTW no one was supposed to see that post. It was only up for a minute before I deleted it. Boy u guys are quick.;)

Don't leave anything up here for very long... you'll get noticed!

So... there are a bunch of us in the cheap seats out there having fun. The more the merrier!

[malcolm]

As someone new, I wasn't expecting to see a $100,000 car(s) in the same seires. That dosen't sound very amateur too me.

naw, that's amateur. $1,000,000 is pro. :D

[Crusher45]

Originally posted by TonyV
I might've jumped the gun, as I'm still very new to CASC. I do get a bit confused with all the different series. But this is a quote from the Race Ontario home page under the CASC Ontario Touring GT Championship title, "The series allows amateur racers to experience professional-style racing at an affordable level".

And don't forget Tony running in GT 1, A, B, C, or D and being a BARC member you are automatically entered in the BARC Championship where money is paid to 10th spot. Oh and top Rookie, $750. Winner? $1000. Nothing to sneeze at. The rules make it very competitive and equal.

[Hagen]

nt