Not Bad for a"Rookie"

[tony mcgrath]

I'd say you had an excellent "Rookie" year as Ice Race Director Dave.

Nice job making it all happen- entries were up , driving was better, new sponsors, new classes, new shootout, great banquet- even the roast beef was awesome :D

Well Done Crusher!! :)

Here's looking forward to next season!

Tony

[max attack]

Yes Dave job well done-with the exception on how the handling of making the menards a spec tire that is.

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by max attack
-with the exception on how the handling of making the menards a spec tire that is.

I dont agree there Tom.. I think Dave listened to the majority of the drivers IN the class- the majority wanted the change..then evaluated the potential for growth of the studded class by switching to Menards from the on-line poll . Then after getting Tom Prentice's input that we still have too much track wear- he made a decision to bring in the Menards one year earlier than was already decided on.
I dont think it could have been handled any better :)

Tony

[Crusher45]

Thanks Tony and Tom. Yes sometimes you win some and sometimes you loose some and like in ice racing I just want to finish. I have learned over the years of my life that decisions you make, right or wrong, if they are an educated decision then it is proper.

I will always make a decision BUT based on all the facts. Right or wrong a desicion will be made because silence is golden but sometimes yellow.

:D :D :D

[RedRabbit Racer]

I'm happy the rule decision is known well in advance of next season and that Tirecraft has been identified as a supplier so I don't have to spend time chasing someone in Wisconsin. hats off to Crusher!

[max attack]

I knew you would agree Tony-you instigated the whole thing!

The problem is the decision was made at the drivers meeting to allow screw tires another year-you started an online poll to change that.The problem is not all interested parties are online,plenty don't even know this forum exists.
The fact is a change was made after the meeting with what one would assume to be the majority of interested parties in attendence.Several of those people weren't contacted for their input on the proposed change-neither Jimmy Feney nor Steph were contacted even after Dave stated right the thread that no decision would be made untill ALL parties were contacted including Jimmy etc.
For that reason alone it rubs me the wrong way,seems a little too political to me.Also being essentially forced to buy tires now just when most of us are spending wheel barrows full of money now for summer activities really makes it any easy decision to say thanks but no thanks.

Now if my suggestion of allowing screw tires with a lesser stud count to run I'd be all happy again,those that can afford the menards can go right ahead and buy them and those that have more time than cash can also play in the sport they love.

[max attack]

Oh and btw it really annoyed me to hear all the bitching and moaning about HAVING to build tires-the fact is no one HAD to build tires at all if they didn't want to!!.

Menards have been allowed for the whole ten years I've been involved so.....:confused:

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by max attack
Oh and btw it really annoyed me to hear all the bitching and moaning about HAVING to build tires-the fact is no one HAD to build tires at all if they didn't want to!!.

Menards have been allowed for the whole ten years I've been involved so.....:confused:

Tom;

If you want to be Competitive you gotta build tires..We ran the Menards against the screw tires last year and screws were faster- 2 sec per lap.
Guys like Ahmad and Kiyo had both menards and ground down screw tires this year. They both agreed the screw tires were still faster this year.
Tom P. made the statement that he would not run screw tires anymore beacause they were too much work to maintain and they still cut down to the dirt after 5 weekends. This with only 10 cars in the class.
Even if Steph and Jim feeney are against the change this year, the majority of current Stud class drivers are in favour, and Tom P. builds the track so...
Also the class needs to be built up in numbers. I'll bet we see at least 5 new entrants in studded now that the spec. tire deal is a go.

If you cant afford to get in on the group buy now, you are in good company - everyone is feeling the pinch. I'm sure we can get the tires later on this summer, or maybe we can organize another group buy through Jeff in September when the new rule book comes out. Hopefully it gives the tires enough time to cure, but if not i know Randy K. still has his pizza oven ready. :)

so start saving $50.00 a week now, and by september you'll have enough for 6 tires and you can come play with the other kids...;)

Tony

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by max attack
most of us are spending wheel barrows full of money now for summer activities

You got a money tree in your back yard Tom?? Care to send me a cutting? :)

No one says you HAVE to spend wheelbarrows full of cash on your summer car. :p

just hold back a few bucket fulls of dough from the summer stuff and divert it into your next winters fun. You've won in underpowered heaps before- you dont need money , you have talent!!

All in good fun, good luck with your summer plans. :)

Tony

[miataboi]

Originally posted by tony mcgrath
You got a money tree in your back yard Tom?? Care to send me a cutting? :)

You've won in underpowered heaps before- you dont need money , you have talent!!

All in good fun, good luck with your summer plans. :)

Tony

I don't have either... what do you suggest?
Marshal?
Crew-chief?
Tire-mounter?
Car-washer?
Guy who directs you when you back-up the trailer?
:p

[max attack]

Reread my suggestion Tony,I know as you do that the menards are slower-hence the reason I suggested that perhaps 16 per foot and the current 5 mil height to even the differences in grip.
If part of the reason is in fact to entice more into the stud classes don't you think allowing guy's the option to buy up the used stud tires that are now completly worthless to everyone would increase the #'s?.
I think its a mistake plain and simple,it's supposed to be this great affordable grassroots wheel to wheel racing series with no returns on the investments-which I wholeheartitly accept.When I'm forced to buy approx $1200 in tires(which I can't possible justify for ice racing anymore) when I could do the same thing for about $250 myself I get pissy-not going to apologize for my opinions.I give anyone and everyone credit for doing things well wether its a fellow competitor or an organizer,I also feel its my right to express myself if I feel something isn't right.
Time will tell if the decsion is the right one on the whole-I seriously expect the cost of tires alone to be prohibitive enough to keep the stud numbers from doing anything specatular-you've already succeeded in keeping me outa the class(I was going to run a corolla in rwd-rwd needs cars and you just killed one)and I suspect Jimmy won't return.So even if you do see 5 new guys you killed the plans of at least 2 maybe more so the net gain is minimal.
I think with screw tires and menards on even ground in terms of grip the classes would grow by leaps and bounds-those with money and those without can play together and all will be happy.

[max attack]

Tony I HAD planned on winning in an underpowered heap next year-in studs no less but thats not to be.(stop trying to butter me up btw-wait a minute you said I drive heaps!)
If you want me in studs use your powers of persusion to get the screw tires back in-I'll be 1st in line for yours.I'd like to pick the car up soon so there's lots of time-the rule book isn't printed for months yet.;)

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by miataboi
I don't have either... what do you suggest?
Marshal?
Crew-chief?
Tire-mounter?
Car-washer?
Guy who directs you when you back-up the trailer?
:p

you and me should head over to Tom's and help him with those wheel barrows full of cash! :p

tony

[Do It Sidewayz]

I'll bet we see at least 5 new entrants in studded now that the spec. tire deal is a go.

i dunno..i was thinking about it...seeing as come the 2006 Season i would likely have a couple sets of used gravel tires kicking around the garage....all i'd have to add was some screws, and a couple cases of beer (give or take)....fill in the headlights of the rally car, throw on a roof sign, and giver..

can't do that no more...so we'll have to see when winter time comes.

[max attack]

You'll need to bring your own wheel barrows-all mine are full right now.

Full of bullsh#t that is.

You should know me by now Tony-if I can't afford something I just build it(notice the theme yet?)Take a close look at the corolla sometime,lots and lots of handbuilt componets from camber plates,slick upper spring seats,offset roll center correction spacers,rear coilover conversion and now I'm a building moulds for body panels.
All of the above has saved me thousands over buying the parts,a pair of carbon fiber doors alone are $2300cdn- mine will be kevlar and weigh about 6lbs(versus the stockers at 67lbs)-cost for the doors is under $50 for materials.
It may be a heap but it'll embarrass a lot of cars that it shouldn't.:cool:

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by max attack
Reread my suggestion Tony,I know as you do that the menards are slower-hence the reason I suggested that perhaps 16 per foot and the current 5 mil height to even the differences in grip.
If part of the reason is in fact to entice more into the stud classes don't you think allowing guy's the option to buy up the used stud tires that are now completly worthless to everyone would increase the #'s?.


Ok Tom , now you get to rethink your suggestion. Firstly you dont know if going to 16 per foot on the screw tires is going to slow them down enough to be competitive with the Menards. So...that means everyone who now has screw tires will have to spend hours grinding down or removing another 13 screws per tire as well as replacing worn ones. That means at least 3 hours per tire. Then you still have to go out and buy Menards to see which tire is faster, and maybe you'll find out that the Menard performs better on mild days and the screw tire is better on cold hard-ice days. So you may end up needing both of the tire types for different ice conditions. (much like in Rubber to Ice- Goodyears vs. Blizzacks)
And if all the current guys hang on to their screw tires and go through this excersize- like i know all the class S4 guys will- then there wont be any used screw tires for new guys to buy , and they will all sit out another year waiting for 2007 when Menards will be used anyways. So all the stud guys get to go through another year of maintaining and grinding stud tires...:( ...And the additional expense of buying Menards , to see which is faster, and because they will have to run them in 2007 anyways.
So to save all the duplication of effort and added expense we make the switch now and save the current stud competitors a whole bunch of time , which we can all put to good use trying to get our money trees to bloom.. :D

Your move...:)

Tony

[miataboi]

Originally posted by max attack
You'll need to bring your own wheel barrows-all mine are full right now.

Full of bullsh#t that is.

You should know me by now Tony-if I can't afford something I just build it(notice the theme yet?)Take a close look at the corolla sometime,lots and lots of handbuilt componets from camber plates,slick upper spring seats,offset roll center correction spacers,rear coilover conversion and now I'm a building moulds for body panels.
All of the above has saved me thousands over buying the parts,a pair of carbon fiber doors alone are $2300cdn- mine will be kevlar and weigh about 6lbs(versus the stockers at 67lbs)-cost for the doors is under $50 for materials.
It may be a heap but it'll embarrass a lot of cars that it shouldn't.:cool:

And yet OTHERS have SOME $$$... and CAN NOT devote THAT MUCH TIME to the effort...

Besides... IF you want to be competitive... you NEED the best tires... and if they are spec... it's a wash... like ALL OTHER cost-controlled race series... spec tire is the ticket. AND... since it's minimizing grip... it puts more emphasis on suspension... bu more importantly... driver!

So it's back to the best-man wins... not the best tires with decent power wins.

And I think we ALL want to get us all on an equal-playing-field... best driver wins. Gives those without the technical know-how or black-majik the shot at the "big-dogs".

Plus... it saves the ice. And you will get 1 or 2 more studded races per season because the ice'll be better on the previously marginal days....

P.S.
WHERE are you getting Kevlar THAT CHEAP? Hard to believe... the US Military has it all bought!

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by max attack

now I'm a building moulds for body panels.
mine will be kevlar and weigh about 6lbs(versus the stockers at 67lbs)-cost for the doors is under $50 for materials.


Tom;

We need to talk- i know 3 guys with GTX's that will all buy Kevlar doors, hoods,& rear hatch's. if you build the parts- sell them to us- take the profits and pick up some Menards- Voila! -You are racing and we all have lightweight GTX's!!

And while we're at it- how's your welding? We are all looking for headers and custom J -pipes too.. you could be sittin' on a gold mine here buddy! :)

Tony

[miataboi]

Make me an echo-hood!
And trunk too!
Hell... 1/4 panels! Fenders!
Make Miata-hardtops... and I GUARANTEE that you could sell 5+ at $1500+!!!!!!

Let's talk.

[max attack]

I have a friend in the canoe building industry and I get the roll ends they can't use because the kevlar can't be joined as its a finished product out of the mould.I also get to buy all the other materials at cost,resins and mould release compounds etc.

Tony my point is that all the guys tired of building tires that are willing to buy the menards can simply go ahead and buy them-same as they always could have.Your right,I have no idea if going with 16 per foot would equalize with the menards-it was just a # I tossed into the ring.
I'm not convinced the menards are going to reduce track wear that much,more tire slippage should mean more track wear.Yes I like the idea of evening the field with tires,but we've always done that in essence with the rules dictating stud counts and heights.
I had no intention of running the screw tires looking for an edge,as you obviously are,I simply want an alternative to the cost.
I'm tired of rubber classes and the inconsistant grip from lap to lap(actually I fed up with all the needless banging and shoving that is tolerated even accepted by most as a way to pass someone)and want to get to some good clean racing like when I ran studs before.
I see the reduced grip as a way for the better driver/car set-up to shine,instead of who has the most power like before(the reason I gave up studs).
I don't think menards should be the only tire option-this year,next year or whenever.I'll wait and see how well a menard stands up to hard driving-is it going to last 3 seasons like people are saying?I bet not,especially for you Tony looking to maximize you combo,you'll be buying new ones every year to keep the studs sharp and max # of studs etc.
I can't start down that road,this year or next.

[max attack]

Do you have any idea the work in building the moulds alone?

I have a couple of top level drifters in the states wanting me to build the doors and rear hatch for them as well,that I might do since the moulds are done but.........
My front end is all 1 pc now since I would've needed moulds for each fender,hood and front bumper and air dam-nightmare to hang all these indivdual pc's properly for nice gaps and alignment.Not much call to sell the front since most people just want a hood.
Parts for a race car are one thing,parts for a street car are not going to happen from me-too much of "my hood doesn't fit right" or "the top leaks when it rains" blah blah blah.You get the point.
My welding sucks:o

Tony let me see how these turn out,I'd need donor parts to build the parts off of.These doors would kinda scare me for wheel to wheel stuff-serious nascar door bars needed and that would cut into the weight savings.I'm building mine so they open as per oem(going to be a bitch-each door needs 3 moulds and then all 3 pieces need to be bonded together)I assume you wouldn't want to climb in a window either?.

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by max attack
Do you have any idea the work in building the moulds alone?


I think you've just come full circle Tom- substitute the words "Studded tires" for "moulds" above.

The majority of current stud drivers are tired of the time investment to build a "Competitive" tire.

Since we dont know how many more studs need to be removed from the current screw tires to slow them down to Menard standards this is the best way to handle things . Spec tire for everyone.

And at $200.00 per tire this is right in line with the costs to buy other motorsports tires. You know yourself Kumhos and Toyos are in the same price ballpark and they wear out after a season. If we get 2 or 3 seasons out of a set of Menards - and i know Randy will on his Scirrocco- then they are a very affordable alternative.

Guess we could go back and forth on this for a while yet but i'll let you have the last word...:)

Tony

[Do It Sidewayz]

And while we're at it- how's your welding? We are all looking for headers and custom J -pipes too.. you could be sittin' on a gold mine here buddy!

pssttt....you do know who's decent at making manifolds, and has access to a tig...:rolleyes:

considering i'm the one who cracked the crap outta one of those manifolds....i might just have to come up with someing.

[tony mcgrath]

Originally posted by Do It Sidewayz
pssttt....you do know who's decent at making manifolds, and has access to a tig...:rolleyes:

considering i'm the one who cracked the crap outta one of those manifolds....i might just have to come up with someing.

Chris ;

i sent Kiyo a link to a picture of a header that they're making for the GTx in the US.

Have a look at it, see if it is "doable"

From what I hear there is a big bad WRX coming out next year and all us little GTX guys better start getting ready now.. :)

Tony

[Do It Sidewayz]

HAHA..your affraid of a WRX?? you mean that 227 hp, 3100 lb car?? BAH....i wouldn't be affraid in the least, unless it's making inexcess of 300 crank hp.

there's plenty more to worry about than a wrx ;) you don't even want to know what i have in mind.

Anything is doable..i already have ideas. It all just depends what you want it made from and so on. If you want stainless, or if you really care (it is just an ice racer).

[RedRabbit Racer]

kevlar doors and body panels on ice racers? check 2.01 of the rules and ask yourself where this fits in.

whats next - slightly used formula one engines?

lets keep ice racing fun and affordable.

[max attack]

Tony I've built quite a few stud tires(at 24 per foot not the woosie 18 as last year:D )so I know the time involved,which I'm ok with investing to keep the costs down.
I'm ok with the idea of a spec tire,the problem is when it adds like 6 times to the cost of tires over a viable alternative than I have a problem-means I don't get to race the class I want for the only reason of tires.
I really don't care that much if I win,hell allow stud tires with only 12 per foot-it'll be even cheaper for me to build and easy on the track to boot.
All I'm asking for is an alternative so I can play,I cannot justify the tire cost outlay all at once for menards-actually I can't justify the total tire cost period(because I know what it could cost).

Tell you what,I'll run screw tires as a test for 0 points-you just pick a stud count and let me prove them a viable option.You want cars in stud classes,I assure you providing alternatives will have a better chance then spec menards ever will.