Ground Control set up for 97 Talon

[Sheraton]

Hi guys,

I'm new here. I've got some questions about the suspension set up for an Eagle Talon 97 AWD TSI. The current set up I have is koni (yellow) with H&R sports springs.

When I went on the DDT last weekend, I realize my rear tires hit the fender. I was using 225/50/16 V700. And the stock size was 215/50/17. I guess the H&R springs is probably too soft. And I know I have to change the springs soon before I brake the tires.

Would anyone know how much the spring rate should I get for the front/rear? And how much can koni yellow hold?

I'll be using the car mostly for the track.


Thank you very much for your help


Sheraton Liu

[Brent]

I was told yellow konis can handle up to 450lb springs. I have heard of people running up to double that rate without damaging the shock, they said it worked OK as long as the track was smooth. I have also heard of yellow konis blowing seals when using over rate springs.

[Dave]

I'm very surprised to hear you had tire rubbing with 225's on your Talon. Most of the Talon guys (Victor, Blair, Nino) run 245's and having driven Blair's car I can tell you there was no rubbing at all.
I would have to say the rims you've got do not have a high enough positive offset. What rims are you using and what offset do they have?

I'd suggest you drop Victor and Blair e-mails about spring rates for AWD Talons. They both have a lot of experience in that car.
You can reach them at blair@winwardcanada.com and victor.delcol@motorola.com

Best of luck and hope to see you at the track,
Dave

[GoldKartRacing]

Sheraton,

I own Blairs old car. It's a 95 Tsi AWD. I run 245/45/ZR16 on 16x8 wheels. I have 650/550 Eibach springs front and rear respectively. I had the same problem last year, mainly with front's rubbing on the inside fender at the top.
I run Ground control adjustable coilovers. My solution was to slightly raise the bottom perch height, say 1/4" at a time, until the rubbing stops. It's importatn to raise all the wheels the same amount, or you will upset the whole balance of the car. You still should be much lower then a stock Talon.
Remember, all Talons are heavy pigs, (3800lbs +) especially AWD models. Very prone to understeer and extremely hard on front brakes.
If your car has a sunroof, drop me a line. I will show you pic's of the seat belt bar I fabricated to join the two rear upper seat belt mounts together. This will stiffen the rear up a bit by taking out the flex.
You shouldn't have too many problems with your Konis.

Later, Dave Effer

[Sheraton]

hi guys,

Thanks for the help. I called Ground Control yesterday and they suggest me to go with 500/350 front/rear. They told me this will probably be the best set up for solo I on a Talon.


Dave Effer: My car has a sunroof.


Thanks

Sheraton

[GoldKartRacing]

Send me an e-mail, and I will forward you the pics. IF you want to have your own, I can send the plans in CAD format and you can have it fabricated.

[RacerRobb]

Note to GoldKartRacing

I am a little late jumping into this thread but wanted to comment on your setup.

Unless you have switched springs around the 650 pound springs are on the rear. The 550's are on the front. I designed and setup Blair's Talon ordering the coil over adapter kit, springs and top mounts from Ground Control.

The car was designed to be a trailer queen with spring rates suitable more for the track then the parking lot (and far from good street rates). BTW - Do you drive on the steet? AND How are your filling holding up?

If I was to do anything different with Blair's setup I would have had the Koni's that were already installed revalved to handle the heavy spring rates.

Blair had some good sucess with the setup.

Sheraton: the setup that GC has suggested will allow you to drive on the street with resonable comfort but the rear rates are really quite soft for a "real" racing setup.

4 wheel drive vehicles react very much like FWD vehicles with the biggest factor being the difference in rates from front to rear.

Robb

[ADAM]

3800lbs.... no way they are that much



Originally posted by Dave
I'm very surprised to hear you had tire rubbing with 225's on your Talon. Most of the Talon guys (Victor, Blair, Nino) run 245's and having driven Blair's car I can tell you there was no rubbing at all.
I would have to say the rims you've got do not have a high enough positive offset. What rims are you using and what offset do they have?

I'd suggest you drop Victor and Blair e-mails about spring rates for AWD Talons. They both have a lot of experience in that car.
You can reach them at blair@winwardcanada.com and victor.delcol@motorola.com

Best of luck and hope to see you at the track,
Dave

[GoldKartRacing]

Robb,

My apologies, I did have the numbers reversed. Congrats on your fabulous setup, it only required some minor tweaking.

Adam, everyones an expert. Must I quote page 314 of the owners manual which re-iterates the door post sticker:

"Gross vehicle weight: 3,858 FWD Turbo and 4,079 AWD Turbo"

I have owned a few of these beasts and thay are heavy, no doub't about it.

Robb: I don't mind the harsh ride. I have however had several conversations with Ground Control re the rear perch design. I have made a few suggestions which will hopefully eliminate the spring from un-weighting itself. When the spring un-weights, it never comes down lined up with the top perch. This will cause all sorts of banging and crashing as the top perch re-seats itself. Helper springs are a great remedy for this. This seating and unseating will quickly destroy the upper perch rubber bushing.

I would have to say that the 1st gen Talon drives very similar to FWD cars due to the Mcpherson front suspension setup. The second gen cars only suffer slighlty from FWD inhertant problems due to the revised front suspension setup. The understeer is eaisier to address with 2nd gen cars. (95+).
As a Talon owner, weight is your biggest problem. Trust me, you will have gobs of traction, providing your clutch and centre diff holds up. I would also recommend the limited slip rear diff ($700 option) for Solo I use. I found the inside rear wheel will lose traction on the exit using the open diff. That said, the fronts will take over the duty for you, except that your huge weight transfers to the rears. Go for the LS diff.
Also, max out your prep points if you want to compete with the guys in your class, but make sure you learn how to drive first.

Sheraton : Make your drivetrain as bullet proof as possible. Go with a super high (2600 to 3000 lb) clutch. Use all synthetic gear and diff lubes. If you don't have a spare set of front rotors, order them, you will surely need them. I'm quite sure there is a wealth of expertise on this forum regarding brake pads. My advice, try a few and use what works best for you.

[ADAM]

AHH... sorry you guys are nuts... your saying that the little eagle talon only weighs 1000lbs less than my 4700lb truck...ha ha ha...

FYI a dodge stealth TT only weighs 3793lbs...and it is a HUGE car
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/FAQ-Specs1.htm

so unless you have lined your talon with lead...or filled the trunk with rocks...i think you are wrong...

this is what i found on the net for your talon...

for a 97, TSI AWD
3142lbs.... so somewhere you have gained 937lbs
http://www.auto.com/reviews/sj_053097.htm

if it did weigh 4000lbs..it would be so slow..the car would barely move...come drive in my truck..it has 225hp and weighs 4700lbs...


adam

[ADAM]

another link for weight...

http://www.supercars.net/garages/Moonracer/25v2.html

[ADAM]

here is one ACTUALLY weighed on scales

3265lbs....

or 3480 with driver and FULL fuel..

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/racing/rd990501.html

[GoldKartRacing]

Ye of little faith.

You are quoting examples of curb weight not gross vehicle weight. If you want to split hairs, let's get to it:

GVWR is a total calculation of full everything, including passengers. The Talon is listed as a 4 person vehicle. Each person is a mean weight of 180lbs when talking GVWR calculations.

"The Talon, despite its heavy all-wheel-drive, checked in at 3480 lbs. It carried 15.7 gallons of gas, and the driver is a sliverweight at 120 lbs. This leaves the Talon with a dry weight of about 3265 lbs."

So the add 60lbs to the flyweight driver + 540 lb (3 x180lbs)= 4080lbs GWVR.

Obviously your race setup weight is less. I have spent alot of time with the scales trying to change the weight distribution. It's not easy. The point is you are starting with an heavy basic package, I don't see any merit in arguing this point.

[ADAM]

not sure what relevance the 4000lb weight is...or having passengers in the car or fuel...we are racing :)

i agree the talon is heavier than some of the other cars in its "class" but that is due to the AWD system...we could shove 4 fat passengers in every car and its going to end up heavy...

my truck with 5 passengers and full of fuel towing my trailer and car weigh in at... 9976lbs total.... not sure what relevance that is..other than if i was going to race..i would lose the trailer with car..passengers and full tank of gas... :)

just torturing you a bit :)

[Shaman]

At least the transmission systems are all down low to the ground, and don't add a lot to unsprung weight the way they're configured.

[ADAM]

what does your firebird weigh in at? 3400-3500lbs

[Shaman]

Yes, about 3400lbs with the cage in and the lightweight suspension pieces, !back seats.