in car cameras

[Tony Kloosterma]

so val and my kids threw me a surprise party for my 50th and I have a zillion dollars in gift cert and cash to spend on a video camera. ( not really a zillion, but enought to buy something)

So what do I buy???
i need to record 500 km of special stages at traga so that is a consideration

advice????

Tony

[StewPiddass]

But Tony, your birthday is still 10 days away... guess that's how they make it a surprise.

[Marsh]

To the best of my knowledge, MiniDV is still the biggest storage for one media (but I'm not positive about the DVDram units). Never the less MiniDV is the cheapest when it comes to $ per recorded minute.

Digital image stabalization only works really well when you have a 3CCD camera (TONS of visual information), but optical works great all the time. Of course either way your in for a relatively big $ camera.

Any thing with a tape will have the tape vibrate during a rally stage. If your going to use a tape then you'd be better to have the recording device seperated in a little padded box, with a remote camera. The remote also allows for much more flexible mounting locations. So if you go with a traditional camera, then get one with proper inputs to have this as an option.

[s2krentacar]

It all depends on the quality of the output you want. If you're burning the vids to DVD and you're going to spend some serious time editing it you MUST go MiniDV. If you're putting this on VHS tapes, then it doesn't matter what you use.

DVD based systems are impossible in my opinion.

Professional DV cameras are all based on MiniDV. Futureshop used to sell the Sony and Canon pro jobbies ($5k a piece) but not anymore. Jackass the movie was filmed entirely with DV (except the opening sequence) and it was shown in movie theaters nation wide.

Unless you want to step up to a 3CCD capture, then any model will do. Futureshop has a great deal on a refurbished Canon model for like $400, so if multiple angles are what you're going for, then it would be pretty good value.

I personally used to have a Sony MiniDv and it was awesome. It had a stabilization program that was ok to even out the handheld wobbles, but i'm not sure how it would fare on a targa stage.

Check out a few of the models and see if there are any "unique" features you're looking for. Sony has a cool NightShot feature which is an infrared nightvision. You can then buy infrared fog lights to light the way if you're doing any night driving. Some have still image capabilities, etc.

Personally, I would buy 2 cheap cams for outside of car shots, that way if you hit anything it won't be a big deal, and one nice cam for inside the car.
Maybe the Panasonic PVGS250 or if you're really interested something like a Canon GL2 or XL2 (bring your cheque book).


Cheers

[Marsh]

Oh yea, and Sony traditionally has the best battery life.

[s2krentacar]

Oh yea, and Sony traditionally has the best battery life.

and most expensive batteries :-p

[Robin2]

Why bother with spare batteries when you can use the cigarette lighter as your source..... I use a 175w inverter from cdn tire.... about $30-35.... and it works great with the regular charger for my canon camcorder....

http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Assortments/PrimaryAssortments/Automotive/PortablePower/Inverters/0111809_450_CC_41f95.jpg

It's on sale for $33.99 (reg $39.99)

Robin

[craig]

I used an inverter at Targa 03 (hard-wired). I used batteries in 02 for a couple days, and then put up with an inverter whose plug would pop out of the dash at every yump.

Things to look for that I wished I had:
1. a remote control that can be used with gloves on.
3. audible/visible tape-low alarm.
4. A/V in and out (many are out-only).
5. Intercom recorded on one channel; ambient sound on the other.
5. separate camera with appropriate wide-angle lens.
6. lockable controls, e.g., zoom (I had a good run at Gander 2002 - but the zoom control was bumped sometime, so it was all shot at a useless 400x :mad: )
7. defeatable auto standby/shut-off, or a remote control that can bring the camera out of standby. This feature will be mandatory for my next camera.

Things I had:
1. I/O Port mount (the one with the red plastic bumper), which was fine for a lightweight miniDV camera. I didn't use image stabilization because my camera would get confused in tight turns and try to stabilize items in the background.
2. visible record light (a little red LED on the front of the camera).
3. MiniDV. Use MiniDV if you want to be on TV.

While not everyone wants to share their video with the TV production folks (I didn't in 2002), but if you want your in-car to make it onto the show, it helps to make life easier for the TV production folks:
1. start with a good clear image that fills the screen. That includes relocating/removing the rear-view mirror.
2. start with a new tape (at least) every leg. I used 18 tapes in 2003 and 12 in 2002, but I taped stuff outside the stages, scenery, other cars, autox, etc. I labelled the tapes sequentially and chronologically.
3. blank record the tapes all the way through before using them. This implants a constant timecode signal on the whole tape - editors love this.
4. review the tapes each night (when possible) and make notes using the timecode as an index.
5. make a highlight sheet with the timecode and description/background of any good scenes and give the tapes to the production folks.

The tapes are mailed back to you a couple months after the event. Note "good" scenes are not always losses of talent. (These always look better when shot from outside :( ) Highlight a humourous exchange, a shot that really shows speed, or the scenery, or the people (preferably all three), or little throwaways shots the show could use when it cuts to commercial.

Good luck!

[s2krentacar]

Why bother with spare batteries when you can use the cigarette lighter as your source..... I use a 175w inverter from cdn tire.... about $30-35.... and it works great with the regular charger for my canon camcorder....

http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/images/Assortments/PrimaryAssortments/Automotive/PortablePower/Inverters/0111809_450_CC_41f95.jpg

It's on sale for $33.99 (reg $39.99)

Robin


Most chargers won't charge and power at the same time, so you have to leave your car on while charging the battery... and that means missing footage

[Wedge]

7. defeatable auto standby/shut-off, or a remote control that can bring the camera out of standby. This feature will be mandatory for my next camera.



That one should be #1 on the list.
I had that problem at Baie, and we missed one stage because of it. Turns out that my camera goes into standby mode after 5 minutes or so. And the only way to get out of standby is to get out of my seat and reach through the cage and hit the button on the back of the camera (the remote won't do it). And there's no way to turn auto-standby off, even when it's not running on battery.
Major PITA.... Definately avoid this if possible.

As for mounting, I'll just refer you to a previous thread: http://66.59.135.81/forums/showthread.php?t=6176

[finboy]

can't remember where I was.. but they had a security system on their monitor.. it displayed something like 12 cameras

is there a similar program where you could hook up a series of cameras
(all recording at the same time) in the car, so it would be easiy to edit
since everything is all live at the same time?

-out front
-angled at the driver
-angled at the navigator
-angled at the drivers floor (showing feet/shifter)

etc etc..

[-adrian-]

is there a similar program where you could hook up a series of cameras


I thought about doing something like this a little while ago, but the cost ended being too much to be worth it for me. The only thing I could find that would convieniently record simultaenous video inputs was a DVR, They are pretty expensive (definitely above $500 just for the recorder).

Ended up finding one on ebay for $100 USD, it was a four channel DVR with an 80gig internal drive. I was thinking I would mount that into the trunk, and then hook up lipstick/bullet cameras to it, but even with the DVR for $100 us, the price was very prohibitive, the cheapest color bullet/lipstick cameras I could find were about $150 CAD. so, $400 + cables and mounting hardware was just too much to swallow.

I also thought baout doing something like this:
http://www.zetecinside.com/xr2/incarcamera.html

Two portable PVRs, two bullet cameras. The PVRs are about $100 each, the cameras $150 each, plus two removable compact flash cards (at least $50 each) ... plus mounting hardware. Basically couldn't figure out a way of doing it for less than about $500 ...

[gkierst]

is there a similar program where you could hook up a series of cameras
(all recording at the same time) in the car, so it would be easiy to edit
since everything is all live at the same time?


The data analysis software for the DL1 data logger (http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage2/Products/Software/SoftwareHome.html) can do this. The software is not very refined, but it does have some good features. It can handle several camera angles, and layout the size and location of each on the screen to anything you like. Each camera angle is imported from different video files, and then manually synced up.

Unfortunately the software can not encode an audio track. You can't even choose a track from one of the video files. So far I've mixed the audio back in with Windows Movie Maker, but it is harder to synchronize as the speed of the new video differs slightly from the original.

The base version of the analysis software is free, but you need to pay $190 US to enable the video support.

[Outsider]

On the image stabilization note, if you're not going to use any in-camera image stabilization, there are a few excellent post-processing programs for image stabilization. Sure, there are some disadvantages of doing the stabilization after the footage is shot, but on the up side, you can use ANY lipstick/bullet cameras you desire, you can use ANY recording device, and you get total control oh how much stabilization you want. Some scenes may require more attention then other, and the software processing is quite powerfull in terms of maintaing maximum quality.
One that I've used on a few occasions and works quite well is this; http://www.dv99.com/
check out the product shocase for some examples.

As for applying the image stabilization to your footage: I would edit the video first, and then apply the image stabilization to JUST the scenes that will make it into your video. That way you don't spend time stabilizing footage you'll never use.

Just my $0.02 worth...

[Guillermo]

Also consider buying a miniDV camera that comes with a wide angle lens that screws on for much better in-car video. Some have lens available aftermarket . But usually it makes more sense to buy the slighter more expensive miniDV model that already comes with the wide angle lens because it usually comes with a longer life battery and other goodies that make it a better value then buying the lens separately. I use a Canon ZR70 bought several years ago.

[Outsider]

Also consider buying a miniDV camera that comes with a wide angle lens that screws on for much better in-car video.
Good point!
Wide angle shots are pretty spectacular to watch, especially for racing applications. Due to the wide field of view, you get the feeling of actually being there when you watch the footage later.
If you do buy lipstick/bullet cams, you can usually specify the lens they put on it. Ask for a wide lens on some of them.

[Paparazzi]

Things learned while filming Cone Crunchers

1) Dynamic Range Is The Most Important Characteristic of the Camera

The inside of the car is very dark. The view out the window is very bright. Therefore, if you want the both the driver and the racecourse to be properly exposed at the same time, you're going to need to buy a camera with a large dynamic range. "Resolution" isn't very important, despite what the drones at Future Shop tell you.

In general, 3-CCD cameras will have a greater dynamic range than their cheaper 1-CCD cousins.

Or, if you're really serious, coat the outside of the window with ND-film (Neutral Density Film), available from Vistek. This will block out most of the light, making the intensity of the light inside of the car more equal to the outside.

Naturally, auto-exposure and auto-focus are NOT going to work properly inside a car (They are going to properly expose and focus the driver, when what you really want it to properly expose and focus on the race-course outside the window), so make sure that the camera has manual controls.

2) A Good Mount is Worth More than Any Image Stabilization

One of the most time-consuming aspects of filming Cone Crunchers was designing and building the camera mounts. I assume that you don't mind drilling into that roll cage of yours to create a solid mounting point? Remember: 3D Heads are your friends. They're the best $130 you'll spend on camera accessories.

3) A wide-angle adaptor is an absolute necessity for filming inside the car.

4) The Sound is Just as Important as the Visual

5) In my opinion, the current pecking order of Mini-DV brands is:

1. Panasonic
2. Canon
3. Sony a distant 3rd

Sony is expensive and mediocre visual quality. Stay away.

[Tony Kloosterma]

Things learned while filming Cone Crunchers

1) Dynamic Range Is The Most Important Characteristic of the Camera

The inside of the car is very dark. The view out the window is very bright. Therefore, if you want the both the driver and the racecourse to be properly exposed at the same time, you're going to need to buy a camera with a large dynamic range. "Resolution" isn't very important, despite what the drones at Future Shop tell you.

In general, 3-CCD cameras will have a greater dynamic range than their cheaper 1-CCD cousins.

Or, if you're really serious, coat the outside of the window with ND-film (Neutral Density Film), available from Vistek. This will block out most of the light, making the intensity of the light inside of the car more equal to the outside.

Naturally, auto-exposure and auto-focus are NOT going to work properly inside a car (They are going to properly expose and focus the driver, when what you really want it to properly expose and focus on the race-course outside the window), so make sure that the camera has manual controls.

2) A Good Mount is Worth More than Any Image Stabilization

One of the most time-consuming aspects of filming Cone Crunchers was designing and building the camera mounts. I assume that you don't mind drilling into that roll cage of yours to create a solid mounting point? Remember: 3D Heads are your friends. They're the best $130 you'll spend on camera accessories.

3) A wide-angle adaptor is an absolute necessity for filming inside the car.

4) The Sound is Just as Important as the Visual

5) In my opinion, the current pecking order of Mini-DV brands is:

1. Panasonic
2. Canon
3. Sony a distant 3rd

Sony is expensive and mediocre visual quality. Stay away.

[Tony Kloosterma]

so which panasonic? keep in mind that I don't want to spend too much, this damn targa thing is already costing me my pension
and i have a camera mount welded in place ready to go

Tony

[Tashko]

We'll be using my mini camera (http://www.missouri.edu/~eecpf014/camera.htm and a hi-8 recorder. One audio channel will be from the intercom system and the other I'm looking to put a mic elsewhere on the car for engine/road sound.
I think you can get the camera for $115 (http://www.opticomtech.com/wholesale/cctv-products.htm) and use a mid-cost DV instead of my anitque hi-8 and your ready to rock. I posted some vids last year and image quality is good enough I think.

TOo many choices I guess.

Good luck.

[Guillermo]

i have a camera mount welded in place ready to go
Tony
Tony,
I've been using the camera mount welded to my harness bar for a few years and the solid mount vibrates the hell out of the camera mechanism. It picks up nasty chassis noises and the miniDV tape skips on some of the bumps and vibrations (all this in an H-stock car :eek: )
I'm supprised my Canon miniDV camera has survived all this abuse.

Thanks to Matts suggestion I recently started using the I/O Port Video Camera Mount (http://www.ioportracing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CM&Category_Code=IOPP) it's awesome and eliminates all high frequency vibrations that were causing my camera problems. It's available at CSC racing in Newmarket for $150.

[Guillermo]

Here is video with my mounted on a solid mount with a short threaded rod.
Notice the nice and wide camera view because of the wide angle attachment.
The camera shake is actually the female insert in the camera shaking relative to the camera and the internals shaking like mad.
solid mount with camera that is shaking to bits (http://www.insightracing.ca/videos/Insight-chasing-miata-TRAC.wmv)

Here is a video Matt recorded using the I/O port camera mount.
Notice that he does not have a wide angle lens on his camera.
Video of Matt rally racing (http://torontopaseoclub.com/albums/album09/offclip.wmv)

[nitrowsb]

Tony! I have a Panasonic PV-GS14...not the top of the line but somewhere in the middle! You can borrow it for Targa if you want JLMK!

Or GO HERE! one of these!http://www.chasecam.com/ss/

and two of these with wide angle lens and external mic
http://www.chasecam.com/bulletcam.htm


And maybe one of these as well! http://www.skytools.m.se/cameyesport.htm

[craig]

Yeah, definitely get an add-on wide angle lens. Note on the linked vids how much image was lost on the top just so I could get a nice wide shot. These vids were shot with the cheapest Panasonic MiniDV on an IOPort mount.

http://members.rennlist.com/944sandmore/GreenspondWeb.wmv 10Meg. Greenspond Island stage, the shortest of the event. Note how only seriously bottoming out the car causes the camera to freeze. (Note also how a misinterpreted route instruction can have potential consequences :rolleyes: )

http://www.seko.ca/TN03/GanderNWeb.wmv 16Meg Gander North, some early-apexing idiot (me) is driving :p

(Just ignore the junky Windoze Movie Maker titles, I cranked these vids out right after the event for sponsors, and I had no idea how to do useful, readable titles.)

this damn targa thing is already costing me my pension
You won't be saying that in a couple months! :cool: A whole rally season compressed into a few days, great fellow competitors, great people in Newfoundland - it is a unique motorsports experience of a lifetime. Two years later I'm still paying things off, but it was worth it. :)

Good luck to you!