CASC-OR Solo 2 Event 5 Official Ruling and Unofficial Results

[tanney]

Well, that was an interesting Event #5 of the CASC-OR 2005 Mobil 1 Autoslalom Championship Series.

As most of you probably heard, there was some controversy over the last couple of runs at the Bronte GO Station on Sunday July 17th. Some people were very vocal about there displeasure about related aspects of the event.

The facts;
It rained! It rained a lot! We stopped the event during the third run because it was felt too dangerous to continue, at that moment, due to lightning storms fast approaching and marshalling stations situated under massive metal light standards.

The event resumed approximately 30 minutes later after the storms had passed and most of the massive amounts of water that was on course had drained away.

During the fifth run, at approximately 1:30, the event organizer called over the PA that there would be six official runs and a post event driver's meeting would be held 5 minutes after the last car.

At approximately 2:15 in weather conditions that were improving, it was announced that there would indeed be seven runs and that the seventh run would be without rain.

I, as the Solo 2 Director, was immediately approached as some competitors had packed up and were ready to leave thinking that there would be no opportunity to go faster than they had in previous runs in the sixth, and “announced” final run. Some unpacked and ran the final run, some decided not to.

During the sixth run, in drying conditions, a car that ran in the middle of the run group spun taking out the first of two markers that were “double coned with a leaner” just before the first loop. Three marshals attempted to set the cones up exactly where they originally were, but due to the massive amounts of rain that had just fallen from the sky, the drywall "chalked" box was no longer present on the asphalt, so the cones were not placed exactly where they originally had been.

The first indication of an issue was the next few cars on course, all setting times that were substantially quicker than their previous quick times. At first this was thought to be attributed to the fact that it was drying and that the competitors now knew the course well enough to improve.

During the end of the sixth run, I, as the Solo 2 Director, was again approached as some competitors were talking that the course had indeed changed and was substantially faster.

At the completion of the sixth run, the event was halted as the course approval committee members reviewed the course and from a visual standpoint while walking the course, it was determine that the course would be re-chalked and the seventh and final run would commence.

I, personally, in my seventh run (and first look at speed of the “course changes”) realized that indeed the course had changed enough to skew the day's results. After the Course Approval Committee and Chief Scrutineer had run, a discussion took place to decide if the seventh run, or event the sixth run should be allowed. Counsel was given and considered.

It appears that the cones were set up approximately two feet toward the south side of the lot and eight feet to the east of the marker’s original location, making the exit from the first loop MUCH quicker.

As the event was wrapping up and after the event was completed, I, again as the Solo 2 Director, was approached to protest or complain about allowing the sixth and more specifically the seventh run. I listened to the facts that I was given, as well as the opinions and the following is my ruling on this matter.



The Ruling on Event #5 of the CASC-OR 2005 Mobil 1 Autoslalom Championship Series at Bronte GO Station, July 17th 2005.

Due to car 91 spinning on his sixth run and taking out the first double cone with a leaner "gate marker" and the marshals being unable to properly locate the original asphalt markings (no fault of either of these parties), the gate marker was not put back in the position that it had been originally located. The course change was substantial enough that the second half of the sixth run group and all of the seventh run group’s runs were "tainted" in comparison to previous runs.

The event WILL count towards the ten event CASC-OR 2005 Mobil 1 Autoslalom Championship Series. It will NOT be dropped from the official event count.

The only fair thing to do at this level of the sport (if this was a club event then the outcome may have been decided differently) is to disallow the entire sixth and seventh runs, making the event official after the fifth run. All timing and scoring will reflect ONLY the vehicles that ran BEFORE the start of the sixth run (car Number 1 started the sixth run).

None of these issues is any one person's fault and not the club's fault, although it would be recommended for all clubs to look into a better, non-permanent way of marking cones in the event of non-cooperative weather conditions for future events.



The Rest;
This decision will affect a lot of competitor’s results. Before you criticize this decision, take a step back and look at the big picture. Not everyone had the chance to compete on a level playing field and this is the best way to rectify that issue without throwing the entire event away.

Results from Sunday's CASC-OR 2005 Mobil 1 Autoslalom Championship Series Sponsored by Inside Track Motorsport News - Event # 5 hosted by COMP will be up shortly on http://www.casc.on.ca and http://www.solo2ontario.com.

The Novice results will be posted after the small scoring issues have been resolved.

The next event is July 30th at the Brampton Centre for Sports & Entertainment, hosted by TAC. See you there.

[JoeT]

I respect your decision, it's a tough one to make, and you can't make everyone happy.

My .02 cents, the voice of many outweigh the voice of one.

[sjd]

I agree with Joe and I think that's the only fair decision.

[Tony Kloosterma]

Wes, as I said to you sunday its a tough position to be put in.

I was not aware of the announced 6 runs and that alone is enough to defend your position. I would not have blamed the people who packed up after run 5 thinking that it would not get dry enough in 6 to make a difference.
it was a very very wet day.

That said its time to move on with the series and apparently the next crisis.

Tony

[Marsh]

I agree. I'm sure this will be an unpopular decision, but there is absolutely no disputing that the event was completely fair at the end of the 5th run.

[haniforama]

Hmmm......

[Gen1GT]

Sounds good to me. My car was better in the downpour than it was in the semi-dry track....

[s2krentacar]

Not having been there, but looking at the facts presented, this sounds like the only reasonable decision....

[opal]

This is the kind of decision I'm sure all solo directors dread.
Your ruling is fair and diplomatic, Wes; there is nothing to argue.

I, and I'm sure everyone else in the series, thank you for all of your hard work.

[holliko]

This is the kind of decision I'm sure all solo directors dread.
Your ruling is fair and diplomatic, Wes; there is nothing to argue.

I, and I'm sure everyone else in the series, thank you for all of your hard work.

I agree. I'm sure this will be an unpopular decision, but there is absolutely no disputing that the event was completely fair at the end of the 5th run.

Exactly and well put.... Now on to TAC next weekend.....

[thekid]

If nothing else is learned from this, hopefully people will walk away from this decision realizing that you have to drive like each run is your last, so that if indeed it is then you'll have nothing to worry about.

[andrew1984]

Ooops, I did it again!

:rolleyes:

[04turbowagon]

As the new guy on the board I gotta say the logic behind the decision makes sense.

It's too bad though cuz the last run was the best for me!! :) Oh well, on to the next event...

[Rob]

As it turned out, my best time was on run #6 and my car number is below 91, so I ran on the "original course". Unfortunately that time will be lost.

Regardless, I think Wes has made the most logical, fair and appropriate decision possible given the facts of the situation. Anytime the course is changed significantly the entire run should be discarded from competition. And no blame to competitor #91, the marshals or the organizers - that downpour wiped out all the chalk and I'm sure no one wanted to wait for the course to be re-chalked before run #6.

Thanks Wes - its a thankless job but one that allows us all to compete and have fun.

Rob - black miata CS #24

[13inches]

Wes,

Please check your PMs for a scoring correction.

Ryan

[Riskbabe]

Pulling the competition back to a baseline of 5 runs treats all drivers equally and is both fair and appropriate under the circumstances.

Agree it's a good decision and a less than envious position to be in... thank you for your time in putting together a well thought out ruling.
hw

[nitrowsb]

I too had a good time on the 6th run and it was B4 Andrew's run( and it was still drizzling)

You're doing a great job Wes! I wouldn't want to have your responsibilities!(that's a lot of i's)

And just out of curiousity, who are you Riskbabe????

[Daniel]

Ahhh, there was a 38.xxx out there BC. (Before Cordeiro) I'm sure of it! ;) :D


BTW Wes, I think you made the right decision. Some of us do loose out, but I think this keeps things as close to fair for everyone as possible...

On to the next event...

[Riskbabe]

And just out of curiousity, who are you Riskbabe????

curiosity killed the cat

kidding … just another Bad Driver being she of the recently deceased green MX6 now co-driving an almost equally glamorous black Cavalier …

Helen

[nitrowsb]

curiosity killed the cat

kidding … just another Bad Driver being she of the recently deceased green MX6 now co-driving an almost equally glamorous black Cavalier …

Helen

Yes, but I also have NINE lives...ok eight left!

[finboy]

http://www.casc.on.ca/uploadedFiles/2005_Event_5_Protest-083105051021141518.pdf

[finboy]

wow.. run 5 vs run 7

and the conclusion is 6?

[13inches]

wow.. run 5 vs run 7

and the conclusion is 6?
Where's the ruling on the event 9 protest?

The official results have the protested car in SP, so I'm guessing the protest was held up.

But then the car is back in SS for event 10? :confused:

Did the intercooler come off?

[gatherer]

I believe the Appeal committee is still writting their report. (on the event 9 protest and appeal)

[finboy]

whenz the award dinner thing?

[Tony Kloosterma]

nov 5, same day as the worksop
details on home page

Tony

[tanney]

whenz the award dinner thing?
http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=6897

[finboy]

i know... just kinda pointing out that the corvette regional was on July 17th??

the results were just posted a few days ago? (not sure when it was added to the website?)

the other protest hasn't been posted

and the awards dinner is 2 weeks away




kinda slow ain't it???

[StewPiddass]

The hearing was only a week ago Dave...

[Logan]

kinda slow ain't it???
I nominate finboy as the new solo 2 director.

[finboy]

The hearing was only a week ago Dave...

the corvette one?

the hearing was on aug 31st afaik

[tanney]

The protest hearing for the Event #5 results took place on August 31st at CASC-OR's offices and the results were updated to reflect the ruling and made official on September 15th. It took me two weeks to update them, but they were updated and made official before the last event of the year. The Ruling itself was posted a couple of weeks ago......

The appeal hearing for the protest that was launched at Event #9 was held last week. When the "Offical Ruling" is submitted, it will be posted also. The verdict was given to all involved the night of the hearing and I made all of the remaining results offical the next day and ordered trophies for the November 5th SoloOntario banquet.

I personally took time away from work on August 31st, in the middle of the busiest week of the 11 years I have worked where I now work to attend this hearing. A number of other people took time out of their busy lives to attend this hearing, on a Thursday night in Downsview, some coming from out of town. Some of us have families and lives that we live, regardless of what we do with our weekends. Some of us dedicate an aweful lot of our personal time and money to organize this sport. Some of us actually have other things we need to do with our limited free time. Some times things get delayed, sometimes they don't. Some times I wonder why I read the crap that some people actually type here and wonder why the hell I waste my time organizing a series for some extremely selfish and ungrateful people, at my own expense. Some times posts like a couple above make me want to say, here if your so damn good, do it yourself!!!!!

I second Doug's nomination!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[finboy]

ahhhummmmmmm

my post was regarding the corvette one.. hense this thread

IF I was going to ask about the other one.. i would have replied on that thread


(Ghandi was mentioning the other one.. not me)

normally Wes posts everything, regarding any updating of info online (was it posted? if it was.. I'm sorry.. i didn't see it and i was looking for it)


all i'm saying is, people were guessing after this process, the outcome would be event 5 or 7 (right?)

that protest thing should deal with what is on the table run 5 or run 7 as the official scoring simple

how they can shake a magic wand, and change the outcome is what i don't get (isn't it their job just to hear the protest, and not try to fix everything?)

no one made an official protest during or at the end of the event (it appears a few complained, but no OFFICIAL protest made)

-saying the results are pending because of the weird circumstances involved
would have been cool at the drivers meeting

from what i read, the rules are in place in the rule book, yet it wasn't followed.

then after the event.. it is announced online that run 5 would be the official one counted how does that work? that is more of a club kinda ruling vs. a regional one no??

JTB launched a protest, and followed the process based on specific
rules of the book

the ruling should be on run 5 or run 7 being the official one (nothing else)

we all have personal time, if you take time off of work you are too far dedicated for your own good

Wes..were you not surprised of the ruling???

did anyone guess that run 6 would be made the official one??? (from what i understand, everyone can't dispute that run 6 was the most tainted run)


selfish? me? ok if you all say so.. i've been called names before, but selfish is a new one to add to the list i'll have to think about that one

as far as the "kinda slow" comment, what is reasonable? and doable?
2 months after the event? ok if that is the best that can be done, so be it.

as far as Dougs comment, I have no idea why he'd suggest me

personally.. i enjoy the club atmosphere vs. the regional one
(no protests, casual social, helpful and fun.. get involved in the regional series, and the fun factor will drop.. simply because the competition level/expecations are that much higher.. winning seems more important than having fun)

thats just me.. if the regional thing is for you.. be prepared for all the other fun and negative stuff involved it gets to be that much louder

[gatherer]

Actually Dave,

The Protest hearing committee have the ability to set a resolution they see fit even if it isn't exactly what either side wanted. that is stated in the GCRs

so even though one side said 5 runs and one said 7 runs they might see that 6 runs is the best result and rule that way (which is the way they have.)

Well I hope that information helps.

remember when you protest or appeal the result is not always what either party expects.

[13inches]

I don't think Jeff's protest was for 7 runs to be counted versus 5. He was merely protesting that only scoring 5 runs did not correspond with how the rulebook says the event should be scored. The committee decided that according to the rulebook the event should be scored based on 6 runs.

Much like a car prep protest, I don't protest and say "you should be in XSP class instead of XSS" I simply state "your car is not legal for XSS." Its up to the committee to find if I'm right, and then to properly class the car (or disqualify it)

[finboy]

Actually Dave,
...remember when you protest or appeal the result is not always what either party expects.


that's dumb, so someone could protest an event, based on nothing, and the board can wave their magic wand again, and change the whole outcome.

i don't get it..

things shouldn't be that complicated.

[finboy]

refresh your memory, this thread was fresh after the event
(you can't use the search feature to find this thread)


http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=6369&page=1&pp=15

[gatherer]

Dave,

there are strict rules on what a protest has to be on. you just can't protest an even based on nothing.. if you do, the stewards of the event or the appeal committee have to determine that it is in fact based on nothing and can rule the protest or appeal invalid.

All protests have to be based on a reason. I can't protest you saying "I don't think Dave's car is legal for CSP" I have to state which rules I think have been broken as well as how I think they have been broken.

I think there is a ton of mis-information out there when it comes to protests and appeals. but thats just an observation of someone that has been down that path.

THe GCRs quite clearly state the information that has to be included in a protest, they also state what needs to be included for an appeal. also they states on what grounds you can appeal. the rulebook for the series (4.9 to be exact) covers timeframes for protests to be launched. the GCRs covers timeframes for appeals.

The GCRs also state what punitive actions the stewards and appeal committees can dish out.

The GCRs are a document that everyone should take time to read they really clear up alot of questions and misconceptions.

[finboy]

Dave,


THe GCRs quite clearly state the information that has to be included in a protest, they also state what needs to be included for an appeal. also they states on what grounds you can appeal. the rulebook for the series (4.9 to be exact) covers timeframes for protests to be launched. the GCRs covers timeframes for appeals.



The GCRs are a document that everyone should take time to read they really clear up alot of questions and misconceptions.

Fredrick.. go check out 4.9 then look up appendix E

[Tony Kloosterma]

there are no appendisies (SP) in 4.9

Tony

[finboy]

there are no appendisies (SP) in 4.9

Tony

Hey TK

i know... page 4-17 top paragraph "blah blah see apendix E"


unless a few pages are missing before it went to print.... I couldn't find it

[gatherer]

yeah so you found the misprint.

Protests and appeals are dealt with according to the GCRs have you not opened those up? it's a different file. it's found on the CASC website.

even if we had Appendix E... GCRs override those rules anyways. Hierarchy in the rules is important.

Anyways when it doubt consult the ASN GCRs for solo events and that has the hierarchy listed there in. After that have a look at the CASC-OR GCRs, I have about 5 copies that I've printed off in the past 2 months or so I'll gladly had you a copy at the workshop, if you are going to be there, but I don't see why you'd go as you've stated before you have no desire to run the regional series.

to help you out I've included below links to the rules that are important for our series. (in order of precedent, the first one listed cannot have rules overwritten by the next one on the list etc.)

1) ASN Solosport General Competition rules
http://www.asncanada.com/2005%20Solosport/ASN%202005%20Solosport%20GCR.pdf

2) CASC-OR General Competition rules
http://www.casc.on.ca/documents/gcr05.pdf

3) Ontario regional autoslalom rulebook
http://www.solo2ontario.com/info/documents/CASC-OR-2005-Rulebook-Final.pdf

it's seriously alot of reading. took me quite awhile to become familar with the rule books.

[finboy]

pretty heavy..

doesn't anyone think that the whole process is crazy? does it have to be that complex?

when an item should be resolved before the next event, there has to be
a better way.... something more simple

pick 3 guys/gals hookup for dinner one night throw it all on the table
like a mediator, and agree that it gets resolved that night..

no appeals, no long delays

dinner, conversation, conclusion

done


if that doesn't work.. then do the whole process thing


I guess what i'm suggesting is that everyone is pretty much friends.. disagree or whatever.. but still respect each other

there has to be a process, but for this level, and to keep things
moving.. something should change.. no?

(perhaps thats just my clubstyle way of thinking.. )

[tanney]

there has to be a process, but for this level, and to keep things
moving.. something should change.. no?


A number of things have been taken for granted in the last few years. That WILL change. Clubs will be held a lot more responsible for their events. Not one club, until the last event of the season, had GCR's on site to use as a reference (their responsibility......). Not one club submitted all of the required documentation, as laid out in the rule book. I could go on.......

Protests and appeals have not been part of the sport for the last five years (the years I have been involved in the series) and this year was a wake up call for everyone.

Next year will have a much more formal aspect to it. As I said and will say it again, too many things have been taken for granted for too long. Performance bonds?!?!? A very distinct possibility. Fines to clubs who do not supply the required documentation?!?!?! Even better possibility...... If a competitor has a beef, I personally don't want to hear about it, give it to the stewards in writing, with the protest or appeal fee.

The new Solo 2 Director had better beef up the arm that has to carry all these rule and regulation books.

Hey, I screwed up this year and didn't follow some procedures this year, fire me!