brake fade...help

[ADAM]

hi guys,
i have upgraded my front brakes to 300zx brakes...
they are 12 inches..up from 9..and are 30mm thick vented and x-drilled up from 20mm

calipers are aluminum 4 pot..up from cast iron 2 pot

so.....on saturday they would fade very easy..to the point that i thought that i would not be able to stop..and th epedal was to the floor (there are no leaks)

on sunday i filled up the brake resevoir past the max fill line..and it seemed to help? no more brake fade?

is it just fluid boiling over? or something to do with the fill level? also..if i pumped them a bit when they were faded they came back a bit?

i bought some dot 4 fluid with 500deg boil level..going to flush system and use that...what is everyone else using and doing?

any suggestions...help...

its kinda scary going into a turn at 170kph and not knowing if your brakes work or not...

[ADAM]

where can i buy in toronto

Castrol SRF brake fluid?

anyone know?

[RacerRobb]

Adam;

That is really expensive stuff. I don't think you need to go to that extreme. The Ford spec stuff at Cdn tire should be sufficient. If you need more then the Ford spec then you need to get to the root of the problem not try to band aid it with SRF.

BTW - you can probably get it from a Motorcycle shop. Try Cycle world. OR can Castrol direct. Their main facility is on Lakeshore Blvd right near where I live. They would be able to tell you a dealer.

The price is usually over 100.00 per litre.

Robbo

[ctenche]

Like Robb said, that Castrol stuff if VERY expensive. Go to your local Canadian Tire and buy some Ford Spec or Heavy Duty DOT 3 brake fluid. It has a 550º dry boiling point. Everyone uses it, even us HONDA guys :)

What brake pads were you using?

Have you upgraded your master cylinder to match the new calipers? Do you need to?

Is the firewall flexling?

[ADAM]

i figure $100 bucks is a cheap fix...no?

no master cyl is stock, thats what all the 240sx guys are doing..it creates a bit of pedal travel at first but then works fine...firewall is not flexing

pads are axxiss metal masters

hmmm..will try new brake fluid and flush the system and see how that goes..cause i don't want a fade in the back straight at shannonville...

[turboawd]

There is a difference between Cdn tire Ford Dot 3 and race fluids. I have used both and found the Motul 600 much better. Wilwood and AP also make good fluids that have higher wet boiling point than the Cdn tire Ford stuff.

Adam, your using street pads! Axxis metalmaster are a decent street pad but not up to Solo 1. Use the sponsor and order up some Carbotech Panther Plus. They are 300% better than what your using, they won't fade and won't hurt your rotors. You can even use them on the street but they will be a bit grapy. The normal Panthers are also very good and more suitable for street if you don't want to switch pads, they don't have as much bite or the high heat range of the Panther Plus but will be better than what your using.

[RacerRobb]

Adam

OK the first thing you have to do is dump the MetalMasters and go for a real race pad. My experience with Axxis is I burnt a set out during my first Solo II school. Yes, solo II.

I don't think upgrading the boiling point of your fluid from 550 f to 590 f will cure your present problems. I have had good success with Hawke pads. The HP plus pad would be a significant upgrade from the MetalMasters and are somewhat usable on the street. They dust quite a bit. Need a little warmth in the morning to work well and they will squeal a bit if you don't use the brakes hard enough on the street or if you don't prepare the pad to move freely in the caliper when doing the initial install.

I find I usually have to do some grinding of the pad to make 'em work.

For the speeds you are attaining now you probably will have to move up to a ral race pad such as Hawke Blue. You will have to do the brake pad shuffle at the end of the competition day but you will not ever have enough brake with the MetalMaster pad now that you are approaching corners with the speed you are.

Robb

[ADAM]

hmmm that could be it? i used the metal masters for years on my NA set up in solo 1 ..and never had any problems.....

could the extra speed be over cooking the metal masters? wouldn't the "extra" bite of a more aggressive pad create more heat? what exactly is failing on the metal master pads?

where to buy these carbo tech and hawk pads?
adam

[RacerRobb]

Yes there is a significant difference between Ford spec fluid and "real race fluid". The biggest difference is price. Wet boiling point is another issue but I and many others discount this "advantage".

The reason why the wet boiling point is so much lower with the Ford spec is due to the extreme hydroscopic tendency of the fluid.

I actually think this is a benefit. Why? - I like the fact that the brake fluid I use will disperse water. Many of the other fluids can become overloaded with water and will allow water to accumulate in spots within the braking system. This can lead to localized rust or corrosion.

Most of us bleed the brakes several times a year. Typically I bleed the system at least once per month. This removes any moisture/condensation/water from the system and insures any other foreign material is flushed from the system.

RacerRobb

[RacerRobb]

Adam

You are going to have to buy those Honda guys a few more beers. HADA has an excellant purchasing program that you should be aware of.

Get a HADA member to explain the process and you to can get hooked up.

Robb

[RacerRobb]

Adam

In prior season you probably only had to drag your foot lightly over the brake pedal when approaching corners.

Now with all that pressurized Nissan power you actually have to slow the car down before turning in.

Robb

BTW - can anyone relate the story as to why Ford has a brake fluid spec so close to a racing fluid.

[ctenche]

Adam,

See how much help you're getting from guys that drive Hondas? We sure are a nice bunch :)

The reason why your MetalMasters are fading is because they just can't take the heat. Literally.

Like tires, pad materials work best within a certain temperature range. Due to your extra HP, you are heating up your pads a lot more than before and are probably going beyond their operating parameters. The result is a mushy pedal.

The Hawk Blues (which is what I would recommend) operating range is between 100º - 1000ºF.

Unfortunately the deal that HADA used to have for Hawk pads is no longer in place. If you're used to paying MetalMaster prices on pads make sure you are sitting down when you get quotes for the Hawks. Good racing pads are NOT cheap. Nor do they last very long either but that's another story.

You can buy the pads through a local distributor (call Hawk directly to find a local one) or contact our sponsor Carbotech who carries both their own pads as well as Hawks.

[ADAM]

thanks guys this REALLY helped..i thought i was losing my mind after forking out for the 300zx brake upgrade just to have them overheat like crazy...

you honda guys are OK in my books :)

even though you realise that now i will be able to stop... vs babying it into corners...so more punishment will be dealt to honda via the supreme power of nissan :)


thanks guys...

adam

[Shaman]

The only downside to Hawk Blues is what they will do to your paint. But driving a rusty old Nissan scrapheap, you probably won't care. ;)

[ctenche]

Haa haa haa :D

That's killer Jerry. Killer!

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by RacerRobb
Yes there is a significant difference between Ford spec fluid and "real race fluid". The biggest difference is price. Wet boiling point is another issue but I and many others discount this "advantage".

The reason why the wet boiling point is so much lower with the Ford spec is due to the extreme hydroscopic tendency of the fluid.

I actually think this is a benefit. Why? - I like the fact that the brake fluid I use will disperse water. Many of the other fluids can become overloaded with water and will allow water to accumulate in spots within the braking system. This can lead to localized rust or corrosion.

Most of us bleed the brakes several times a year. Typically I bleed the system at least once per month. This removes any moisture/condensation/water from the system and insures any other foreign material is flushed from the system.

RacerRobb

Actually, ALL glycol based brake fluids (which is DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5.1 and DOT 6) are hygroscopic, and have an affinity for water. DOT 5 (which is silicone based) does not, but is unsuitable for ANY form of performance braking system.

Anybody who disputes the point of wet boiling point is missing some very important information. When your braking system absorbs water (and it will, as the very atmosphere we breathe is humid...), the boiling point of your brake fluid drops. So, if you have pads that are good to 1000 F (which isn't incredibly high by the way...), but fluid that boils off at 250 F (WET) instead of 450 F (WET), you can have a problem. Once brake fluid starts to boil off, you get a gas (which is compressible) instead of a liquid (which is not compressible) in the braking system. Hydraulics work on the very notion that a liquid isn't compressible, and thus you have brake fade.

The Hawk Blues aren't *bad* pads, but they certainly aren't high end race quality pads. I prefer the Hawk HT-8 and HT 10 pads, which are significantly more aggressive, and capable of taking temperatures well over 1300-1400 F. Performance Friction also makes their PF90 / PF97 / PF01 pads, which have temperature ranges up to 1600 F.

If you don't want to change pads at the track or just prior to the weekend event, then the Hawk Blues aren't bad. Performance Friction also has a Z rated pad (called the PFZ), which is a decent, low dust, street / track pad. It has good initial bite, doesn't need much heat to be effective, and is also quite quiet on the street.

Beware; most race pads based on metallic compounds (everything except the PF01, which is ceramic) have a highly corrosive dust, which tends to eat into rims and paint if not cleaned off regularly.

Another thing to look at is a set of stainless steel brake lines. Stock rubber hoses tend to expand at high temperatures; stainless steel (and stainless steel / Kevlar combo's) are braided, and don't expand under pressure. This also helps to reduce brake fade under high stress.

With the limited number of laps you're running at a time in a Solo 1 type event, I'd suggest that the Hawk Blues / PFZ pads are probably fine, with good fluid and stainless steel lines. Three hot laps isn't really enough time to overcook your brakes too much.

Pat

[Dave Barker]

Adam , I don't agree with Bad Karma at all. I have used Performance Friction Z compounds and they are a totally useless joke , not even good enough for the rears . OTOH I have used Hawk blues with great success on my very heavy camaro and believe me they get up to temperature very quickly ( and work very well) and are totally unstreetable .
I change my pads and rotors at the track and use some small amount of ducting to help cooling but pedal feel is in general excellant . BTW there is a brake pad survey on the SCCA forums and it seems that Hawk is the most popular , hands down .

The main problem with Hawk blues is that at anything below full operating temperatures they will act as mini lathes on your rotors so this year I will be trying the carbotech panther XP ( supposedly a step up from the panther plus) but will treat them as track only pads .

I also agree with Nino and have switched to Motul 600 from Ford Heavy duty fluid . It seems to be less compressable and give better pedal feel for the street.

[Shaman]

Dave, my experience is just like yours. I found the Hawks to be far superior to the PF93 pads I have on the car right now, too. Especially in initial bite.

[Bad Karma]

You guys are also dealing with a LOT heavier cars than Adam's Nissan.

I agree, I change my pads and run the PF97 for the track only (the PF93 is a completely different compound from the PF90/97/01 compounds). Trying to find a pad that *does it all* is next to useless.

But I've run the PFZ pads as a street pad for quite some time, and we have several students in the BMW Club who run them as a street/track combo pad, and it does quite well.

They ARE a street oriented pad however, and not a low-end race pad like the Hawk Blues.

I tried the Hawk Blues for awhile, and could get them to fade going into turn 5 at Mosport. I've stuck with the PF97s ever since.

Pat

[Shaman]

The only place I ever had my Hawks fade was on Fabi @ Shannonville. It's not impossible.

[ADAM]

hmmm...well i bought some motul 600 last night..so i am going with that....

i have stainless brake lines...

i will try first some carbotech panther xp's and see how they go..or hawke blues if i cannot find the carbotechs

[Bad Karma]

We have a guy in the club who runs a Z06 at BMW-CC events, and he can get his Hawk Blues to fade on the track as well.

Given that they're only good to about 1000F, they're alright for Solo 1 events, but 1/2 hour or 1 hour long lapping sessions tend to keep the heat up as well.

At Cayuga, another of the instructors can get his brakes to fade on his Viper using Hawk Blues.

The only issue with the PF97s is a more limited range of pad sizes available, compared to the Hawk's. Hawk does seem to cover a larger variety of calipers than Performance Friction does....


There is one final factor that contributes to brake fade which we haven't discussed; braking technique. This is impossible to judge without being in the car with someone, so I can't comment on how Adam may be doing. But poor technique can cause nearly ANY braking system to fade, so it's just one more factor to keep in mind.

Pat

[Shaman]

I find that having pads with lots of initial bite let me use the brakes a lot less, too.

[Bad Karma]

I haven't tried the Carbotech (any version...), but I've heard both good things, and bad things about them.

The guys at Carbotech apparently have a new ceramic compound similar to the PF01 compound (no corrosive brake dust...), and are willing to bond it to any backing plate you want.

So, for custom built pads, I know a couple of guys who are getting full sets at roughly $250 for a front axle, and $200 for the rears. Fairly cheap, for a full race quality pad.


Pat

[ADAM]

i tend to brake deep and hard..if that helps

[Shaman]

Or not at all, if memory serves. :D

[ADAM]

yep or sometimes not at all :)and just blaze straight thru with brakes smoking :)

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by ADAM
i tend to brake deep and hard..if that helps

Well, that describes what we're ALL trying to do, so without actually SEEING or FEELING what you're doing, I can't offer much.


Basically, what you want to do is be on the brakes for the minimum time required, to get the necessary braking done (no more, no less).

However, smoothness is a big part of this, and that's where it's hard to judge. Generally, someone is either smooth, or not.

JUMPING on the brakes isn't smooth, but a press, then *squeezing* the brake pedal is....

Smoothness comes with time, practice and some helpful instruction. Take advantage of having an instructor with you whenever you get the chance, as they can help you out with smoothness.

Generally, smooth equals fast.....but there are exceptions to every rule.

Pat

[ADAM]

hmmm...well i would have to say i have to work on smoothness..i tend to drive a bit aggressivly..and it sometimes leaves me sliding off the track....

but thanks for the very good info on brake pads and fluids...

[Jay]

Adam ... what is the cost of the Motul? What is the quoted boiling point?

[turboawd]

I have used the Hawk Blues, track only and although they have good initial bite, and work well, they EAT rotors. They make terrible score marks in the rotors. The Carbotech Panther Plus have just as good initial bite, better than the regular Panthers, have higher temp rating, 1200C and don't eat rotors. I haven't had much issue with corrosive brake dust. A good waxing of your rims helps a lot. Also, using the Panther Plus, I don't change the pads, I drive to and from the track. They are more grappy and dusty for street and will squeak sometimes, but they don't eat the rotors. I haven't tried the new higher carbotech coumpound yet.

see,
carbotecheng.com

[ADAM]

hindgrinder
motul 600
594 deg f dry
421 deg f wet

cost 12.95/can looks like 300-500ml or so

bought 2 cans at cycle world

ps they quoted me the castrol stuff at 195/litre :)

ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Bad Karma]

The AP Racing 600 fluid is about $38 a bottle (500 ml).

Exotic Motoring Accessories carries the Castrol SRF; I think it was about $19.95 a bottle. (500 ml).


Pat

[ADAM]

nope i confirmed last nite at cycle world $195.00 per litre cdn (not per case)

it sells for $60 us per litre in the usa..so it would be cheaper to bring it in from the usa...

[Jay]

Drive to Buffalo.

Flush the fluid.... drive back!

Haha Heck dump a litre of Vodka on the Windshield wiper resevoir too!

Did I think that or type that?

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by ADAM
nope i confirmed last nite at cycle world $195.00 per litre cdn (not per case)

it sells for $60 us per litre in the usa..so it would be cheaper to bring it in from the usa...

I think Cycle World is yanking your pricing chain on that one; they're obviously out to make mega-bucks there.

Raven Performance just brought in a bunch of Castrol SRF since nobody had stock in the AP Racing 600; I think they're selling it for the same price as the AP Racing ($38 per 500 ml).

The guys are down in Mid-Ohio until Sunday, but I'll check on Monday and see what they're charging for it.


Pat

[ctenche]

Here's a page with the wet and dry boiling points of some of the popuar flavours of brake fluid.

http://www.shotimes.com/SHO3brakefluid.html

[Bad Karma]

The AP Racing 600 is 590 F dry, and 410 F wet.

It's $38 for 500 ml.


I could see the Castrol SRF going for $50 for 500 ml, but not $100....that's rape.


Pat

[ADAM]

i agree its nuts....


NOW HERE IS AN INTERESTING THING...

are there any rules against active aero braking systems?

basically powered panels on the car that open up?

[ADAM]

in my university years we used to do buffalo runs to get alcool for purple jesus...i had the whole back of my 240sx piled up..some times the bump stops would come into play :)

[ctenche]

Adam, I think you've been drinking too many of them Purple Jesus' if you're thinking about having panels pop up to slow you down. While you're at it, look into retro rockets :)

Please don't let me read about you in the Darwin Awards...you and those green rubber gardening/driving shoes of yours.

[ADAM]

actually GM considered retro rockets for many years but the issue came into play that the car infront of them would be melted/set on fire :)


green italian garden shoes :)
it doesn't get any better than that :)

[Bubblecar]

Brake Fluid.

When I ran the Talon on the track - with the biggest mother brakes I could buy - I tired several brands of brake fluid.

On the advice of Rob and several others - I switched to the low cost Ford fluid and it was great.

Without being humble - I can afford any brand of fluid I want and my choice is the FORD DOT.

Nick

modified.com (http://modified.com)

[rainman]

I agree with Nick, Robb and the others that use the Ford spec stuff. I've tried Motul 600 in the past and was disappointed because of how quickly it absorbed moisture from the atmosphere. This necessitated bleeding the brakes almost everyday at the track on really humid weekends.

For the money (and the same aggravation), the Ford stuff is in my opinion your best bet.

On another note, I've used the Hawk Blues with great success. Once up to temperature, they are relatively easy on rotors. I would never recommend driving anywhere else but on the track with those babies unless you need to accumulate Aeroplan points quickly with all the rotors you'll be buying. I also find the brakes very easy to modulate once up to temp.

Bottom line is that everyone has different driving styles, subsequently you need to play with a number of different product combos that best suit your own style. I know some guys that run no brakes at all (John P.????).

[blur]

While I don't doubt that better brake pads wouldn't hurt, Adam never said his pads were fading, he said the pedal was hitting the floor.
Obviously the fluid is boiling, putting grippier pads will only boil it quicker.
Perhaps some ducting is needed as well?


BTW, I use Metalmasters and Ford Heavy Duty Dot 3

Burl

[Shaman]

Not true at all. When the brakes don't work well, they generate a LOT of heat, because you'll be braking lots earlier, lots more pressure, and lots more time. Most of the overheating problems I had with my car in 2000 (during One Lap for example) had to do with the pads. Hawk Blues and some basic ducting (with stock calipers) made my car nearly bulletproof in the braking zone. Dave Barker can attest, he went out and fixed up his brakes after a ride in my car.

[Jay]

So Steve... are you saying that the ducting was the key?

[Brent]

My car does the same thing as Adams. When the pads get too hot the metal backing plate warps, the pad cracks and pedal will go to the floor because you are pushing harder.

I have toasted stock pads in a couple laps, hawk HP+ in about four laps and I have toasted my hawk blues, they just took a lot longer to warp and crack. The blues are leaps and bounds better than stock or HP+ for the track.

It doesn't matter what kind of brake fluid you are using if your pads are cracked.

[Shaman]

No Jay, the real key for my car was the more aggressive pads. They put more heat into the rotor and away from the calipers, and they stop the car with much less time, pressure and heat. I'm no longer using vents, I just don't need them.

[Dave Barker]

This thread is really taking off . I have been away for 1 day and we are already up to 4 pages !!

Now for a few obserations

Karma , I find it very odd that you have your Hawk blues fade going into turn 5 unless you have a monster motor and a very heavy car. Both SMP and Cayuga are much harder on brakes than the " BIG " track at Mosport and certainly my experience is that with a bit of ducting the Hawks will run 40 minute sessions at the track with no significant fade and I can only hope my Panther XP s work as well. I would think the potential for poor performance of Hawk blues at Mosport might occur with a light car with only moderate power ( did I say Honda??) where the car is not fast enough to need much brake and the pads never get up to temperature . Are you sure the problem was with the pads ???


Adam , given that your car has a gazillion HP , you should be approaching speeds that definitely need a full race pad to be predictable or last the wkend. If you thought you had fade at the DDT , wait for the other tracks !! Remember that the kinetic energy of the car that has to be disipated into heat is proportional to the square of the speed , in other words if you double your speed you will produce 4 X the heat in braking , given the same cornering speed . Also , I think you will find that race pads in stock calipers will work better than stock pads in racing calipers.
If you are going to be running temperature of up to 1300 degrees as suggested above then you NEED ducts .


Nino , Hawk blues are not too bad on rotors as long as they are hot. The lathe activity happens at lower heat . One of the problems with blues though is that they don't release well . Try spinning a wheel after a track session and you will find alot of drag from the pads . The Carbotech guys claim the panther series pads don't do this . We'll have to see .

[Shaman]

I had a *lot* of drag from the hawks. I swear I could sometimes feel it when I let my foot off the throttle.

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by Dave Barker
This thread is really taking off . I have been away for 1 day and we are already up to 4 pages !!

Now for a few obserations

Karma , I find it very odd that you have your Hawk blues fade going into turn 5 unless you have a monster motor and a very heavy car. Both SMP and Cayuga are much harder on brakes than the " BIG " track at Mosport and certainly my experience is that with a bit of ducting the Hawks will run 40 minute sessions at the track with no significant fade and I can only hope my Panther XP s work as well. I would think the potential for poor performance of Hawk blues at Mosport might occur with a light car with only moderate power ( did I say Honda??) where the car is not fast enough to need much brake and the pads never get up to temperature . Are you sure the problem was with the pads ???



It wasn't my car that was fading the Hawk's; one was an '01 Z06, the other was an '00 Viper. Both on Hawk Blues, both managed to get fade. The Z06 going into turn 5 about 20 minutes into the session, but realize, we're ENTERING turn 4 about 160+ KM/h, and hitting the brakes a little over 200 KM/H.

The Hawk Blues we got to fade was at Cayuga (now the infamous TMP...and all their legal problems....sigh...) on the Viper.

Going into turn 1 in the Viper we could fade the pads after about 15-20 minutes.

Both of these cars were essentially stock, otherwise, except for R-Compounds, and stainless steel lines. Both were running either AP Racing 5.1 or ATE Super Blue as brake fluid, both relatively fresh. No ducting added, etc. Neither of these are my car, so I certainly don't drive them on a regular basis. And no, there is nothing wrong with my braking technique....

I'm not saying the Hawk Blues are a bad pad, but they are definately a *low-end* race pad, and not the top of what Hawk (or Performance Friction) has to offer. They're only good to 1000F, while PF 97s and 01's are good to well above 1200F (1600F for the 01 ceramic compound!!!), and the HT-8 and HT-10s are good to 1300+F.

I'm merely offering my observations based on what I've run, and what I'm running. For Solo 1, Hawk Blues *may* just be fine, given that you're only doing 3 hot laps.

For an open lapping day or serious driving school where you're out for 1/2 hour or more at a time, 1000F degree pads are a minimum at best. I've run hour long sessions at Mosport with PF97s in a race prepped BMW, and not had brake fade at all, with the stock M3 brakes. This, in a car which weighs about 2800lbs (plus driver), and doing about 195 KM/H at the start of braking for turn 5.

Once again, I'm not saying the Hawk Blues are a *bad* pad, but I'm merely suggesting some alternatives for Adam to try, since he's running a car with some serious HP in it. On the track, you can NEVER have too much brake....


Pat

[ADAM]

hmmm....
well i ordered the hawke blues, and am buying a set of used carbotech panthers to try out as well...and bought the motul 600 fluid...and keep in mind my car only weighs 2600-2700lbs and has the brake system from a huge 300zx....so lets hope it will be ok...

PS at DDT i was only running 9psi boost which dynoed at 219rwhp and 230ftlbs..so no gobs of power yet :) when 15psi comes along (soon) then the car will be quick (or blow up) :)

thanks for the very good input..this has been an awesome thread

[Taylor]

I had problems with my brakes this past weekend also. I'm running Carbotech Panther Plus's on the MR2 (in the front).

On Saturday, at every braking point, the ABS would kick in. When mentioning this to "the boys" they asked when I last bled the system (which was sometime last year). Apparently the whole over-winter thing was a bad idea. So I chalked this up for the ABS problem.

So on Sunday I bled the system (didn't take much out, maybe 300ml, it was the color of umm.. a light iced tea). Really no air bubbles to speak of. Anyhow at least the pedal didn't go to the floor anymore.

However at some braking points again this day I was hitting ABS, but this was towards the end of the braking. But the pedal wasn't all the way down this time.

Now I never had this problem last year but the car was stock last year. This year I have an extra 60+rwhp and torque, so I wonder if the little 1991 brakes on the car arn't big enough for the car with it's current power. (in 1993 the MR2's output didn't change, but it's brakes and stock wheel size did).

Of course it's a 12 year old car with (likely) stock brake lines too.

So I'm considering several things..

1) Flushing all the fluid out of the lines.
2) Replacing the lines. (perhaps stainless)
3) Going with bigger brakes.

As this thread is educating me a little more on brake fluid, I wonder if perhaps only taking 300ml's (or whatever) out wasn't enough and there is still fluid in there with too much moisture from over the winter? Perhaps a total flush will eliminate the ABS kicking in thing.

Thoughts?

[ctenche]

If you have fluid in there from last year then go ahead and flush it all out. I would also look at replacing the brake lines. Like you said the car is 12 years old. I'd do it from a safety standpoint if not for any other reason.

Another thing that I would like to mention in regards to this thread is the that the DDT is brutal on brakes. For some reason I've always experience braking problems there. Cracked two sets of rotors, overheated pads, boiled fluid, etc. I'm not alone in this experience with the DDT. Most HADA guys have said the same thing. You guys had problem in the cold weather. Imagine in the summer when the ambient temperature is 30ºC.

Shannonville and Cayuga has much less stress on the braking system.

[ADAM]

another question....

in a boosted car..how does the boost/vacuum effect the brake boost system which uses vaccum?

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by Taylor
On Saturday, at every braking point, the ABS would kick in. When mentioning this to "the boys" they asked when I last bled the system (which was sometime last year). Apparently the whole over-winter thing was a bad idea. So I chalked this up for the ABS problem.

However at some braking points again this day I was hitting ABS, but this was towards the end of the braking. But the pedal wasn't all the way down this time.

So I'm considering several things..

1) Flushing all the fluid out of the lines.
2) Replacing the lines. (perhaps stainless)
3) Going with bigger brakes.



Taylor,

One thing I'll suggest. If the ABS is kicking in, then you don't have a lack of braking power. Bigger brakes will just have your ABS kicking in sooner. Remember, you only have 4 contact patches to provide all the traction you have, so if your ABS is kicking in, you're exceeding available traction somewhere.

Now, some ABS systems are more intrusive than others (apparently Subaru has this issue...), so it might not be a traction issue, but merely programming of the ABS setup. This isn't cheap or easy to fix, as it essentially means replacing your entire ABS setup.

Can you feel a wheel lock-up when your ABS kicks in, or not? If you can feel a wheel locking up (or hearing one), then you're exceeding traction somewhere, and something OTHER than braking is the issue.

If no wheels are locking up, and the ABS is kicking in somewhat early, then it's one of two things: Either the ABS system in the MR2 is questionable (talk to Peter Clifford, he may be able to help you out with this, since he has the same car...), or your braking technique is a little *rough*. If you're jumping on the brakes hard (once again, the difficult to diagnose lack of smoothness...), this could lead to ABS kicking in early, as the sensors may detect one wheel slowing down more than the others, and trying to prevent a lock-up.

What pads / shoes are you running in the rear of your MR2? Running different pad materials can also cause ABS issues on the track, as street pads can grab sooner in the rear, and track pads grabbing later, but harder up front. Mismatching brake torque outputs front to rear can really screw up the bias, and cause some issues like you're seeing.

There are times when you want to change brake bias by using different pads (wet tracks, big brake kits up front etc...), but for a stock system, it's best to match pads front and rear.


Pat

[Taylor]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess my rears are locking up. I say this because they did it when I first bought the car (actually caused me to spin around once too I think).

But yeah, I'm definately running different pads on front and rear. I wonder if that is indeed the problem. Keep in mind, I did not encounter this problem last year with the exact same brake setup.

Wheels are the same this year though I am running 5mm spacers (all around) and I've staggered my tire sizes (225 in the rear, 205 in the front) (where as last year I was 225 all around). This is because my tire/wheel combo didn't fit with the new coilovers (they would rub on the perch such that I couldn't even install the damned things.

I actually have some light rubbing (even after the change) but all it's doing is rubbing away a couple lines on the face (sidewall) of the tire (etching into the logo and faint ribbing, not deep, maybe 1mm).

What can I do to adjust the braking bias? (guess I should do a search on the MR2 board about that). If I adjust the bias more to the front, then the rears hooking up sooner shouldn't be an issue (should they?)

As for Peter Clifford, he and I have two different generation MR2's, his is a 1st gen, mine is a 2nd gen, they're quite different cars.

Thanks for the ideas though.. think I'll try a couple of them.

[Shaman]

I run stock brake pads on the rear of my car. Works great, stops the tendancy of too much rearward bias that the f-bodies sometimes have.

[Dave Barker]

I'm with Steve . The race tires allow more wgt transfer to the front of the car meaning that I need even less rear brake relatively . Certainly for me there is no need for the rears to be anything special so I can use stock ( or worse) rear pads with no problem . Unfortunately F body cars have a distinct rear brake bias from the factory . OTOH pads and rotors last a long time . Matter of fact I doubt the rears would get hot enough to heat a race pad up to temperature.
May be different for you Taylor with your rear wgt bias.

[Dave Barker]

Adam , glad to see you didn't get PF Z compound , I think you would have been very disappointed .

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by Taylor
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess my rears are locking up. I say this because they did it when I first bought the car (actually caused me to spin around once too I think).

But yeah, I'm definately running different pads on front and rear. I wonder if that is indeed the problem. Keep in mind, I did not encounter this problem last year with the exact same brake setup.

Wheels are the same this year though I am running 5mm spacers (all around) and I've staggered my tire sizes (225 in the rear, 205 in the front) (where as last year I was 225 all around). This is because my tire/wheel combo didn't fit with the new coilovers (they would rub on the perch such that I couldn't even install the damned things.

I actually have some light rubbing (even after the change) but all it's doing is rubbing away a couple lines on the face (sidewall) of the tire (etching into the logo and faint ribbing, not deep, maybe 1mm).

What can I do to adjust the braking bias? (guess I should do a search on the MR2 board about that). If I adjust the bias more to the front, then the rears hooking up sooner shouldn't be an issue (should they?)



Brake bias is generally set from the factory, though bias valves can be purchased and installed to adjust brake bias. All a proportioning valve does though is allow you to reduce rear bias, and not increase it. In your case, this sounds like the right idea though.

You don't want to have two proportioning valves in your car, and the MR2 *may* have a factory bias valve in place which would need to be removed in order to install an adjustable unit. I'm sure a good TRD familiar mechanic could help you out with this one.

Since you're running more rubber in the rear, that should help somewhat with the brake bias as well. If you're running coil-overs all around, I'd suggest taking the car up to CSC racing, and having them corner balance your car for you. You *might* be getting too much weight transfer to the front, causing your rears to lose traction. A spring upgrade might be required up front.

One of the reasons you could be seeing lock-up this year and not last year is due to additional speed you're carrying now; if you didn't require as much braking last year, the pad differential front to rear may not have been an issue.

I agree with Dave; mixing and matching pads IS sometimes required, simply due to manufacturer's that design in a rear brake bias (by lawyer or by mistake....!!). Lower torque pads in the rear can help to maintain balance in the braking zone for the car.

I'm not familiar enough with either the Camaro or the MR2 to state if a rear bias is common with these cars. My BMW is quite well balanced, which is one of the big reasons I'm reluctant to step up to a big brake kit for the front end...

Pat

[Shaman]

I wouldn't hesitate. Big brakes don't stop the car faster, they stop it more reliably because they're less likely to heat. My car weighs around 3650 pounds with me in it, and I have no troubles with brake fade now, even with the crappy PF93s I have on it that need prodding.

[RacerRobb]

Taylor

If the Mr2's ABS system is toooo sensitive maybe just the different tire sizes are causing premature actvation. Is there an easy way to defeat the system? Many will know that you can defeat many of the Honda's ABS system by pulling the handbrake up lightly and driving a few hundred metres. This will shutoff the ABS until you shut off and restart the car.

I know ABS can be a big help in guarding against flat spotting but once skill is attained in threshold braking without ABS most drivers are faster.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the different tire sizes are a factor. Does the Mr2 ship with different sized tires front and rear?

Robb

[Taylor]

The 1991 MR2 came with 185 15's in the front and 195 15's in the rear. In terms of overall circumference, I dunno, I'd have to measure them.

[Taylor]

Hmm the MR2 guys are implying it's a sensitive system (in terms of unecessarily activating during bumps, which was a problem I had at the end of the straight on the DDT on Saturday, there was a bump down there, I'd hit it, ABS would kick in and I'd overshoot my turn-in.

Looks like I can disconnect the power to the ABS computer, or better yet, put a switch on it. I can simply remove a fuse, though it's said it disables power steering but.. I don't have power steering so that's probably the next thing to try. I've always been able to "race" the S2000 without getting into ABS, so I suspect I shouldn't have too difficult of a time getting along with out it. Though I do like the safety buffer it gives me against flat spotting. Regardless, overshooting my turn-in is not exactly what I'd call safe either. Nor is the few near-hits I've had on side streets coming up to cars and hitting a bump during braking. 1991.. kind of the infancy of ABS I would say.

Sounds like a good idea is to go do some threshold braking in a mall parking lot at night with both sets of tires on and see how each react.

[Bad Karma]

Originally posted by Shaman
I wouldn't hesitate. Big brakes don't stop the car faster, they stop it more reliably because they're less likely to heat. My car weighs around 3650 pounds with me in it, and I have no troubles with brake fade now, even with the crappy PF93s I have on it that need prodding.

Well, on my own car, I haven't had a problem with brake fade (using the PF97s....and I'm thinking of trying the Carbo Panther XPs next...). I also haven't had an issue with ABS kicking in, part of which tells me I *may* have even more traction in my tires than I know.

Big brakes do actually provide *somewhat* more braking torque, but yes, it's generally the ability to shed heat which is the requirement for stepping up to them. That, and pedal feel, as multi-piston calipers are easier to modulate than the single piston, floating caliper on the BMWs.

Basically, braking power comes down to three things, average radius of the pad / rotor combo, pad compression (just how much force can you squeeze the pad against the rotor with), and pad composition (ie, brake torque). Swept area is a benefit as well, but this is primarily for pad wear, rather than pure braking force. Having more pad in contact with the rotor does help however.

I figure my car might actually gain about 5% in terms of braking power with a step up the an AP Racing 4 piston setup. This is based primarily on tests that have been done on various setups, and generally, stops from 60 MPH show minimal difference between the stock BMW brakes and BBKs, but from 80 MPH and 100 MPH, there was 2 foot and above increase.

One of the things you can do with a BBK is run a less aggressive pad (such as the Hawk Blues) because you're able to shed heat much better than with a smaller rotor / pad / caliper combo.

Another, final factor (beyond price...which is ALWAYS an issue) is that many stock calipers tend to flex under high heat, high stress braking. Kits from AP Racing et al tend to have calipers which are much stiffer, allowing more uniform contact of the pad with the rotor, increasing pad and rotor life.

Damn, one day I talk myself into the big brakes, the next day I talk myself out of it....the following day I talk myself back into it....and so on....sigh.



Pat

[Bill]

One thing to watch out for is if you replace the front rotors with a big brake kit, and leave the back brakes alone, that it will change your brake bias. Since the larger rotors require less pressure to get the same braking force, you will be getting more braking on the front. This could be good, or bad, depending on what you started with.

[Shaman]

I have a variable electronic braking bias system on my car. However, it tends to bias the rear too much. The big brakes have actually raised the car's desire to lock the back brakes on occassion - or maybe it's the 11.8:1 compression ratio of the motor. Not sure.

[ADAM]

so we flushed out the whole brake system and i looks from the look of the brake fluid that it was burned....we traced it down to an exposed brake line that was hidden below the turbo manifold and was basically exposed to direct heat...so we heat wrapped it to protect it....we also installed hawke blue brake pads , and also used the motul 600 brake fluid....

i just wanted to say thanks for all of your help...especially with the pad selection.

thanks
adam

[wpfri]

Adam.Have you tried the F1.10 pads yet.I would like to know If they solved the brake fade issue with your car.How do they compair with the hawks you are running.

William

[ADAM]

Hi William,

I have installed your pads with a fresh set of brembo rotors, and have tested them on DDT for a short period of time (10laps). Here are my initial feelings (i want to get them tested on dunnvillle as that track is much harder than DDT)

all vs hawke blues

1=initial bite, i thought the initial bite was slightly below that of the hawke blues, however the modulation was VERY linear..which was nice to drive on.

2=brake fade, your pads had no brake fade, and worked much better at higher temps than the hawke blues

3=rotor wear, seemed within reason vs hawke blues


overall i think the pads you supplied worked very well, however dunville will be the real test next season.

hope this helps

adam

[Rob McAuley]

Man, what a blast from the past!

Thanks for resurecting this old thread, William.

I've been mainly running Williams' F1.10's this year, and they are very comparable to the Hawk HT10s. No corrosive dust like the Blue's, and excellent bite, even when cold. The Blue's will eat half a rotor just getting warm.

When I ran out of pad at Watkins Glen, I picked up some PF97's, and they're woosie. No initial bite, but linear and easy to modulate. Lots of black graphite dust.

I'm trying a set of Williams' F1.07s now. On the streat, they are great - more agressive than the street pads. I'm assuming they'll be a strong intermediate pad. We'll see how they last at Mid Ohio this weekend.

[ADAM]

rob...did the power come back on at the shop?

[Carguy]

Originally posted by Rob McAuley
The Blue's will eat half a rotor just getting warm.

Using Hawk Blues demands a higher quality rotor. This season I wore through 2 sets of Hawk blues. On my first set I wound up cracking some lesser quality rotors after 5 events - not to mention the near 1/4" groove they had when I chunked them after Dunnville. I replaced those rotors with Brembos and after 7 events the rotors are barely grooved (2 of 7 were lapping days with tons of laps at Shannonville). The first set of pads are 80% worn and the second set of pads are 67% worn. I think I could have got more wear out of the second set of pads since the Brembos are slotted (asked for blank but my supplier ordered slotted). Having said that I am planning to use F1.10's next season and I wonder what is the most compatible rotor for them. Do they stop well with Brembos or can you get away with lessr quality rotors?

[CobraStang]

Don't get me started on brake issues! :(

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by Carguy
The first set of pads are 80% worn and the second set of pads are 67% worn.

Serious precision there ... you must measure your pad thinkness down to 1/10 mm :)

[Greg F]

Originally posted by CobraStang
Don't get me started on brake issues! :(

Ha, same here! But after all the hassle, I've learned so much about brakes I could write a thesis. Maybe one of us should start a new thread on brakes, including the whole hydraulic system and the booster.

What a year this has been!

[Carguy]

Originally posted by ScotcH
Serious precision there ... you must measure your pad thinkness down to 1/10 mm :)

Hey it's my novice season. I'm not that anal... yet. ;)

In reality it's just a visual SWAG.

80% = about three quarters worn, plus a bit more for good measure.

67% = two thirds worn cause the pads have a bit more material left than the three quarters worn off the other pads.

Bottom line: the pads did not change but the rotors did. Given the wear vs usage there is something to be said for the quality of the Brembos and their compatibility with the Hawk blues.

[DECH_92]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CobraStang
Don't get me started on brake issues!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Cobrastang
I don`t want to make you bring up bad memory’s but could you elaborate what braking problems you have had on your 98 SVT.

I did not make it out much last year so I missed most of what’s going on.

I read somewhere that the rotors that Ford used on their SN-95 platform were not very good for track use till 1999 when they changed the manufacture.
The PBR calipers have had nothing but good reviews.
Your 13 in rotors up front and 11.65 out back I think.
I think you updated you rotors. Did you get the 1999 and up rotors?
What about you Calipers?

The reason I ask is because I have 10 in out back and only 12 in up front with PBR rotors and I know I am slower then you guys but I have had no problems at all with brakes. Never boiled my brake fluid (Ford dot 3) or cracked or warped a rotor. My brake fluid is actually reasonably clean when I change it. I have little nose dive so I am at least using some back brakes under hard braking. Plus I have a Brake proportional value.

I am sure part of your problem will go away when you do your suspension upgrade your planing
You get a lot of front end nose dive so I imagine your back brakes are not doing much at all.

I never got the opportunity to try Williams race pads (man I have heard nothing but great reviews on his pads) Wish I had a set, but the pads I use have a carbon-Kevlar material with a bonded ceramic heat shield. I think this is why my calipers don`t get that hot to boil the fluid.

[wpfri]

Guys please get your orders in now for F1 pads.We are right now in production for next year.For 04 we did a production run of 5,000 sets in total for F1 material and we went through It in 3 months and then played catch up.

We have a second F1 press coming in Feb 05.We have hundreds of shops that want to carry our product but we cannot keep up with supply.

We are doing our best to solve this situation.Yes It's good for a company to be in this situation but It hurts our reputation on delivery time.

One of my Race only retailers who have been around for decades told me Hawk came on really strong in the mid 90s and supply was a massive problem,very spotty and waiting months for product.

We are working on shrinking the part numbers so the supply is higher in the numbers made.

I understand the fustration and I thankyou for your patience.Waiting 2 and 3 months for product is out of line and I promise you we are doing everything we can to fix the situation.

It would help us greatly If you placed your orders now.You do not have to give a deposit or pay for anything now.Our list for next year is already at 8,800 plus sets and adding for F1 material for next year.

We are currently working on a street version of our F1.10 pad.This would help out greatly because this pad could do It all.Street,Solo2,Solo1 and be Race ready.

We will keep you posted on the development.

Because of your feedback we have made the S2 more agressive for next year.

For anyone running Stop-Tech,Willwood,AP and speciality calipers.You MUST have your order in 1 month in advance.

As always guys thankyou for your feedback and comments.

To place your order please fill out the form online at www.wpfri.com

We have several retailers across the country and are now legally allowed to retail in the U.S.A. We will send you to the closest location for product.We have several retailers in every provience now so you are well covered.

WTZ is the only location in Ontario that is authorized for the 20% discount and prize giveaways.Peter and Andrew do an awesome job of taking care of you guys.

Thankyou for your time

William

[wpfri]

Rotors

We will have matched blank Rotor sets available through our retail locations for 05.They will be reasonably priced and are GMB4000 pressure cast rated .They are of very high quality and 1 level below the Brembo 5000 Pcast TUV rated rotor.


William

[wpfri]

Pierre,we will have matched rotors for your application that will be much cheaper than Brembos and be of a good quality

BEWARE Guys.Brembo has cheaper lines out now,so make sure you are paying for the right product.Brembo's excellent reputation has been based on their 5000 rated TUV rotor.

To capture the street crowd they have brought out a cheaper non race version.If you are racing request the 5000 TUV rotor.
This comes with a certified document stating It has passed TUV standards and the rotor is also stamped.

Look guys,I suggest you replace rotors with fresh pads regardless how the rotors look.

Russ and several others had hugh problems with aftermarket rotors that just did not just ruin their day but almost cost them their car.

Brakes is not the place to be cheap.I will make sure the products available are reasonable through our retail locations so you can afford to replace rotors every time you do a pad change.

William

[ScotcH]

Originally posted by wpfri

To place your order please fill out the form online at www.wpfri.com


Done ... I refuse to use MM next year :)

Thanks for your support, William ... see you at the Solo banquet!

[CobraStang]

Originally posted by DECH_92
I don`t want to make you bring up bad memory’s but could you elaborate what braking problems you have had on your 98 SVT. 1. Broke a rotor halfway through my 2nd lap at Shannonville during a lapping day, but didn't go off. The hat separated from the disc. Still, my day was done, since I called around, and no one local had rotors. These were 99+ Brembo rotors, which Ford uses on the Cobra's.
2. Replaced both rotors, using a pair from NAPA. These were not the cheapo Chinese ones. They were cast in Canada. Carl Wener looked at them, and said they looked like Aimco (sp?), and suggested that they were one of the best aftermarket castings.
3. Massive brake fade at Dunnville, using Hawk Blues. Had my first FWO of the year there. This was mostly pad fade. The pads were toast after that weekend, so we're onto set #2 now.
4. Got through Saturday morning practice at Shannonville OK. After the driver's meeting, I started to move my car into the grid, and felt that there was a problem. Yup, the FL rotor had cracked after practice. I had kept the other 99+ Brembo as a spare, so I changed rotors. Made it back into the grid without even missing my place!
5. Same day, first hot session, on my cool down lap, the rotor I had just put on broke! Same way as the other. I was moving a fair bit faster than the first time, and there was no way to avoid the off. Went into Shannonville National Wildlife Swamp and got stuck. Held up the event for 20-30 minutes, and got covered in mud. Done for the day. Still finished 2nd in class. Fortunately, I had purchased another set of rotors, and had them at home. Got a ride back to TO with Shakir, and then back to the track with Mohammed, who was in the city also getting new rotors.
6. Next day, I get through Sunday morning practice OK. I start my first hot session, and I feel thunk thunk thunk through the brake pedal and I'm like WTF!?! But it goes away, and my session is OK. I think maybe it was mud or something. Well, I inspect the rotor after its cooled down from the first session, and yup, there's a crack. While I'm changing the rotor, I hear "pinngggg", and a second crack occurs. Anyway, I get my total rotor changing time down to 15 minutes, including re & re the wheels! That's three rotors in a weekend.
8. Boil the fluid at a Dunnville lapping event. Also, the Hawk Blues are gone again. Right down to the metal. I can't even get the pad out of the piston now. The piston must have deformed somehow, or even partially welded.

I plan on installing brake cooling ducts, and use the Hawk HT-10 pads (unless the Williams pads are reliably available). And use a proper racing brake fluid, instead of the Ford HD DOT 3. I bleed at least one bottle per weekend, sometimes two. If a good fluid doesn't boil, then it may end up being cheaper. That'll help.

The K-member and offset control arms I'm installing will help with weight distribution and transfer. Spring rate will help with the front dive, but doesn't affect weight transfer.

[wpfri]

Russ the Mustang needs the F1.20.Please order them now for next year. www.wpfri.com These pads will cure the rotor and brake fade problem.I suggest you order at least 2 sets for the season.

For the Mustang, William states Brembo 5000 TUV rotors are the best option

I look foward to your review of the Williams product compaired to your Hawk performance review.

Ken Koven

[Carguy]

Originally posted by CobraStang
And use a proper racing brake fluid, instead of the Ford HD DOT 3. I bleed at least one bottle per weekend, sometimes two. If a good fluid doesn't boil, then it may end up being cheaper. That'll help.

Russ, the only brake fade I experienced was event 2 on Fabi where I was using stock pads and Ford spec brake fluid from CT. I thought it was the pads at first but after inquiring about pads/rotors etc with a local shop they advised that I was most likely boiling my brake fluid (causing increased brake pedal travel not pad fade) and that I should switch to better brake fluid. I forget the exact dry and wet boiling points of the Ferodo fluid I'm using but the wet boiling point is the one you want to pay attention to - the higher the better. The Ford HD stuff has a high dry boiling point at 550 deg. F, but the wet boiling point is not mentioned and is much lower than the higher cost brake fluid.

I also cracked a rotor at Dunnville due to overheating, but I experienced absolutlely NO brake fade at Dunnville or any other track for that matter after I bled the system with better brake fluid. I'm not trying to sell you on the Ferodo, but I bled the brakes with that stuff once without having to bleed again for the rest of the season. I'm sure you can get the same results with Motul or other high-end brake fluid. Having said that cracking rotors is a function of heating/sudden cooling. Brake ducts will help, but I've been advised to be careful not to apply cooling to the rotors too quickly since it may shock them and also cause cracking.

[Steven Scala]

Back in my BMW days I paid $90 for a 1L can of SRF 90 at TRAC racing when I was living in Montreal. (They didn't have ATE Super Blue, which had served me extremely well before. Got the Super Blue at Mantis.)

Long story short, the Beem cracked a head after two track days and the SRF is still sitting on my shelf. I wouldn't dream of putting it in the Saturn, and the Formula Ford guys would laugh at me if they saw me putting anything costing more than the Ford stuff into a Van Diemen. So if anybody wants to taste the good life and try the SRF, I wouldn't mind offloading it for some poker money.

Let's start the bidding at $45.

Steve

[Dave Barker]

Russ, You and I both have heavy cars that attain reasonable straight line speeds. The kinetic energy that the brakes have to dissipate as heat is directly proportional to the wgt of the vehicle but also to the square of the velocity. This means that our cars can easily have to dissipate up to 2-3 times the heat that some of the light weight Hondas have to.

My point is before you worry about which fluid to use, you need ducts. They should be as big as you can make them and directed to the centre of the rotor and not on to the inner face of the rotor. Believe me, with the heat our brakes can generate, a difference of 25-50 degrees in brake fluid boiling point is not the major issue.

The real coolant for brakes is air and the more flow you have the better they cool.

[sjagman]

I agree with Dave on cooling the brakes. My car weights 3800 lbs with driver and 1/2 tank of fuel.

I had lots of brake fade this year in the Jag, no boiled fluid just HOT brakes, inboards in the rear. I rebuilt them this past weekend (without dropping the cage) and the dust covers were HARD as a rock from the heat. NO seized pistons, just leaking.


FWIW. Penninsula Imports (Oakville) has Super Blue ATE Racing for around $19/litre. I flushed my brakes approx 2-3 times during the season, the blue color makes it real easy to tell when you have the old fluid out.
I also beld them before every event and even during a couple of them to make sure. If you know where it is cheaper let me know!


ALSO>> YEEHAW thanks William and Ken, the last I heard was that WPFRI wasn't sure on the F1 line. glad to hear you will making it.

My order will be in once I settle on my new car.