Help classifying an '04 STi

[Slowpoke]

I hope to run Solo 1 as a novice next year and I have an '04 Subaru STi modified for Solo II competition. I'm not sure if someone was messing with my head, but I heard people mentioning that CASC-OR intends to change the starting PI. Any decisions made on that?

Please tell me if I have this right:

Starting in GrandTouring1 with 79.2% PI.
Intend to run in Super Grand Touring with 89.2%

http://www.ppmi-inc.com/images/Preppt.jpg

Obviously, what I would LIKE to do to the car is going to throw me up into Improved. Since some things become free there, would I compete in Improved but have only 18PIP's because of the +4 benefits for a total of 97.2?

First, a couple of questions:

If I take the 4 points for 6.1.C.2 ECU mod for turbocharged vehicle where boost is tweaked, I don't also have to take 3 pts for 6.1.D.4, Modification that affects the boost pressure control system, any or all?

If I take a point for 6.1.G.4, can I lighten the crank pully AND the flywheel with only 1 point?

If I take one point for 6.1.B.4, can I remove/gut all three of the Subaru STi's catalytic convertors?

Can I provide a dyno chart to take FEWER than 4 points for factory turbocharged ECU modification?

Now, if y'all don't RAISE the starting PI of the STi, I can go back to the stock front sway bar (-1 PIP), add an intake (Free in +1), and put a spool pipe in the downpipe with stock diameter to delete cats (+1 PIP), and still have 10 PIP's in SGT2 at 89.2%?

Am I correct? HELP! Solo 1 classing is SOoooooooooooooo confusing!

[thgear]

coilovers are 4 pips

but are you gonna run stock shocks?, shocks would be an additional 2 pips.

[ScotcH]

There may be some changed to the STi starting PI, as well as the +4 authorized mods ... to be sure, I would wait until some direction comes from the CCC before you go and spend money. There is a workshop on Nov 5th which will discuss many of these issues, and you'll likely see some info release after that date.

On your other points:
- Yes, you can do all rotating mass reductions when you take the PIP (though at least on BMWs doning both the flywheel and crank pully is BAD!)
- Yes, you can remove all 3 cats
- Yes, you can provide a dyno chart to take less PIPs (basically, the whole engine PIP section gets thrown out). However, this rulke might be altered as well, so sit tight.

Clear as mud? :confused: :D

[Slowpoke]

coilovers are 4 pips

but are you gonna run stock shocks?, shocks would be an additional 2 pips.

Really? 6 pts? OUCH! They're Whiteline Group 4 Coilovers, springs and shocks together. When it said "(Coilover systems permitted)" for 6.2.5 I thought that INCLUDED the shock body?? When you say coilover, (especially with "SYSTEM" after it, that's typically an adjustable height strut body with inherently different shock absorber inside, no?

6.2.4, 2 PIP's for "Modification to the OE shock absorbers/struts, including all operational and attachment parts... I thought THAT was for only modifying what came with the vehicle.

:confused:

[thgear]

i wouldnt mind some clarification on that as well

but i think by "coilover systems" they mean those kits that fit over a typical shock (such as the Ground Control kits)

but we'll wait for "dave the CCC ninja" chime in on this... :D

[ScotcH]

i wouldnt mind some clarification on that as well

but i think by "coilover systems" they mean those kits that fit over a typical shock (such as the Ground Control kits)

but we'll wait for "dave the CCC ninja" chime in on this... :D

No need for the Ninja to show himself ... :)

Springs are 4 PIPs
Shocks are 2 PIPs

If both are modified (as in separately, or through a complete "system" like a coilover) it's a total of 6 PIPs. Serge is correct in that you can make a coilover system without actually changing the OE shock ... clearly, this is not what you have done :)

Also, if the changes made lower your car to the point where the alignment is no longer within OE spec, you need to take a point for that as well. Hope that helps, or at least clarifies things!

[craig]

I asked about the spring/shock issue a couple years ago. Six points (which is one reason why I still have 15-year-old OE shocks, with the associated reduction in reasonable spring rates).

Arek - you probably would have had to re-balance the crank.

I asked on the ride height as well. Ride height is not covered by, or part of, the 1 PIP for alignment. Thus, torsion-bar cars take 4 points for non-OE ride height.

[Slowpoke]

This keeps getting worse and worse! (I had noted the alignment point on my paper, but not on the spreadsheet.) So I'm already in SGT1 with two prep points to add.

Updated prep point table:

http://www.ppmi-inc.com/images/Preppt2.jpg

Two questions I had that I haven't seen clear answers for yet:


If I take the 4 points for 6.1.C.2 ECU mod for turbocharged vehicle where boost is tweaked, I don't also have to take 3 pts for 6.1.D.4, "Modification that affects the boost pressure control system, any or all?" if electronic changes were the only ones made? (No manual boost control or modifications to turbo flow.) Just max boost changed from 14.7psi to 18psi.

The STi downpipe has two catalytic convertors in it. So, if I take the two cats out by essentially using a same diameter downpipe as stock, this is 1pt for Catalytic convertor removal, right? Not 3 pts for uppipe / downpipe modification?

[thgear]

ooo that would be a grey area indeed...

if you could prove that flow rates of a strait pipe vs 2 cats is identical, i think you can get away with it.. it would have to be a seperate proposal to the CCC

maybe...

where is that Ninja damn it?

[Dave]

No need for the ninja, ScotcH is a CCC member so he's fully "certified" to answer all these questions :)

To answer the latest issue, if you used an OE diameter downpipe to delete the cat, you'd only need to claim the cat delete PIP, not the 3 PIP downpipe category, but IF and ONLY IF you can demonstrate to us that not only the diameter is the same but also the shape and flow characteristics. As we all know, not all exhaust systems are created equally, even when they have identical inner tubing diameter. For example, if the OE peice has crush bends that reduce inner diameter somewhat but the aftermarket downpipe has mandrel bends with no loss of inner diameter, you'd have to take the 3 PIPs for the downpipe. You get the picture.

[Slowpoke]

Well, okay, why take a point for deleting catalytic converters if you have to have the same flow rate afterwards?? Does everyone who deletes cats have to prove the same flow?

So, instead of replacing the DP, I can gut the cats in it for 1 point then.

[Dave]

no no, it doesn't have to have the same flow rate as when the cat is in place. What I'm saying is that the rest of the downpipe needs to be identical for all intents and purposes as the OE downpipe. So you'll gain a less restrictive system overall by removing the cat, but you are not allowed to ALSO gain a less restrictive downpipe by installing one that is superior in design to the OE downpipe (not including the cat). See what I'm saying?

[CobraStang]

Do you plan to tow the car to the track, or drive it?

Frankly, you're better off leaving the cats as is, and not worry about the MOE, MOT, or police. THEY DO pull people over in areas around the race track, especially Cayuga. Plus, seriously, how much power will be gained?

Where do you plan to have 4WD dyno done?

[Slowpoke]

I will be driving it, not towing it. I would be employing the services of the Four Star Motorsports AWD Dyno Dynamics dyno in Georgetown. Last time it was on the dyno the cats got a little warm with higher boost (Stage 0)...

I was thinking of gutting/removing the two in the downpipe and changing the one in the midpipe to a same diameter high flow cat (free under stock). Most Subaru's pass emissions testing fine with one high flow cat in the midpipe.

According to most tuner Stage 1 and 2 results, It should be at least another 25 WHP, maybe 40 whp if I'm lucky. Rather than specific numbers, I'm more hoping that the turbo will spool a little sooner and pull harder right to redline, increasing the area under the curve.

It's hard to know because I haven't found a dyno plot from a gutted downpipe... most of the guys getting dyno plots don't compete in Solo 1, so they change to 3", some with a divorced gate or 4" bellmouth at the turbo exit tapering to 3" at the midpipe.

[Cheers!]

modifying an STI... wow... I thought they were already pretty damn fast from the factory. Avi killed GT1 this year and he was on Yokohamas not Hoosiers.

[CobraStang]

Avi killed GT1 this yearAvi did very well this year. But I heard somewhere that he lost the class lead on the last weekend of the year, and finished the season 2nd in GT1 and 4th Overall. ;)

[Cheers!]

Avi did very well this year. But I heard somewhere that he lost the class lead on the last weekend of the year, and finished the season 2nd in GT1 and 4th Overall. ;)

wow... that is news to me. Maybe I should've fixed my car to go race in the last weekend. Avi needs shaved and scrubbed Hoosiers.

Whereas I need a lot more than what Hoosiers can give me.

[Dave Barker]

Slowpoke, you don't mention if you have any experience beyond Solo II. As said before, the STI is already a pretty fast car. I might suggest that before you have yourself up with some really fast cars that you spend more time on the track with the stock STI. More power will not make you a better driver.

BTW as far as a reclassification of the base STI, that is a possibility. But so are a number of changes to the rules as will be discussed first by the Car classification committee and then at the workshop. We will be reassessing a lot of things including authorised mods , base PIs for a number of cars as well as PIP schedules. Unfortunately the rules need a bit of tweaking on an annual basis but rest assured that the committee has members who represent many different types of cars and types of engines and members come from many different classes so there is no one vested interest being promoted at the committee other than keeping the competition fair and close.

[Doug P]

Unfortunately the rules need a bit of tweaking on an annual basis but rest assured that the committee has members who represent many different types of cars and types of engines and members come from many different classes so there is no one vested interest being promoted at the committee other than keeping the competition fair and close.

I think the Camaro should start 5 PIPs lower. ;)

[craig]

but rest assured that the committee has members who represent many different types of cars and types of engines and members come from many different classes so there is no one vested interest being promoted at the committee other than keeping the competition fair and close.
Perhaps everyone has a vested interest, but nobody has the same interests! :)

I don't know about other folks, but IMHO the Solo1 rules have gotten better and better every year. I only enter events rarely because I'm not very competitive, but it is nice to know that almost any car could be made into a competitive car in some class - as opposed to rulesets that result in more-or-less spec cars for each class.

[ScotcH]

Perhaps everyone has a vested interest, but nobody has the same interests! :)

I don't know about other folks, but IMHO the Solo1 rules have gotten better and better every year. I only enter events rarely because I'm not very competitive, but it is nice to know that almost any car could be made into a competitive car in some class - as opposed to rulesets that result in more-or-less spec cars for each class.

That is the goal Craig! All the guys on CCC three years ago did a fantastic job of building the new PI system to make it very fair and competative. Now we're just refining and tweaking to make it even better. Other series in North America could learn alot from Solo I in Ontario!

[Slowpoke]

Slowpoke, you don't mention if you have any experience beyond Solo II. As said before, the STI is already a pretty fast car. I might suggest that before you have yourself up with some really fast cars that you spend more time on the track with the stock STI. More power will not make you a better driver.

Your point is well taken and I take every opportunity to attend schools that my travel schedule permits. I've been to Shannonville and the DDT with the stock STi. Ian Law school, Solo 1 school, BMW school... Seat time is what I need most and don't have enough opportunities to get.

I thought about dropping the boost back to stock for Solo 1 next year. I might yet do that. It would be easier if I had the Cobb rather than the ECUTEK. But, I also have to keep my prep level in Solo II in mind. If I'm already taking the pax hit in SP, I might as well maximize it.

Feel free to PM me about more schools or track days... :)

[Chris91GT]

I think that you'll find the competition more entertaining in GT1 rather than SGT1. GT1 is often a VERY large class with intense battles. SGT1 is often a lonely field.

[STIgma]

Avi did very well this year. But I heard somewhere that he lost the class lead on the last weekend of the year, and finished the season 2nd in GT1 and 4th Overall. ;)
I heard it somewhere too. Every morning I am roused by my recurring nightmare, body drenched in a cold sweat, the same cruel words echoing in my brain...

Yokohama: Now you've lost control. :(