Drive clean "revamp" - huh?

[JAYh]

I read a TINY little side column in the Globe and Mail today that they've "revamped" the Drive Clean farce and are removing the exemption for vehicles older than 20 years. HUH?

This completely came out of nowhere for me and I can't find useful information on the web. Does anyone know anything about this?

It looks like they were trying to keep this secret until they dropped it on an unsuspecting public - why am I not surprised?

Edit: Now I'm reading on another forum that vehicles older than 12 years will be tested anually! Can anyone substantiate this?

- J

[holliko]

Here you go.... Enjoy.... Another pile from the "Magimpy" government....

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/news/2005/111801.htm

[Slowpoke]

Two years ago they were going to phase out the whole program?! Dalton McWimpy... sheesh.

I don't mind Drive Clean so much, really. It's flawed, but better than letting *****s drive around with no cats only for street racing.

Now, us registered Solo Sprint Time Trial'ers should receive exemption...

[Suzie]

I'm not finding this very clear on what happens to vehicles that are over 20yo. Also, whether having heritage plates makes any difference - I mean vintage vehicles are NOT the big polluters, yk?

Drive Clean is a farce - my old van passed with a shot O2 sensor and exhaust that made you WANT to keel over and die!

Suzie

[StewPiddass]

Meanwhile my civic is within a hair of passing everytime (which looks like it may be every year now since it's a '93!)

[Marsh]

I'm not finding this very clear on what happens to vehicles that are over 20yo. Also, whether having heritage plates makes any difference - I mean vintage vehicles are NOT the big polluters, yk?

Drive Clean is a farce - my old van passed with a shot O2 sensor and exhaust that made you WANT to keel over and die!

Suzie

Well keep in mind that any car only has to pass the emissions standards for the year it was produced. So any car that qualifies as vintage is pretty mush excempt by it's age anyway. 20 years old is another matter however.

[Tashko]

All I can say is I'm very happy to have an AWD!! No problem passing the test in neutral :D :D

Sucks to have to do it every year though.

[Stan944]

This sucks big time. Might be the end for my 23 year old Porsche...
The ironic thing is that the fraction of 20+ year old cars (not trucks) is so small, that even if they pollute more than average, the cumulative environmental impact is rather minimal.
I guess it's more politics than environment, and the government wants to boost sales of new cars (no need for inspection here). Did you notice that the day of release of this government statement coincides with the statement on GM layoffs within a few days?

[Erik Z]

To my understanding, here are the main changes:
- Cars newer than 5 years old will be exempt
- Cars from 5-12 years old will be tested every two years
- Cars more than 12 years old will be tested every year
- The 20 year exemption no longer applies from the 1988 model year onwards

So as of January 1st, pre-1988 cars will become exempt (regardless of age). It's the next generation of "vintage" vehicles that will suffer...

[yellowhotshoe]

One of their BIG concerns was SMALL engines (no I'm not referring to those of you who chose to run a car with 1/2 an engine that only has 4 cyl. :D ).

I would hazard a guess that the amount I drive my 'hobby' car in the summer only pollutes a tenth as much as the average Harley rolling down the road. I don't see motorcycles mentioned anywhere in the Drive Clean program. But I guess the McWhimpy gov't is probably full of the old fat bearded farts that have swelled the ranks of the 'biker' crowd trying to re-live their teens. :rolleyes:

[Stan944]

Erik Z: I hope you're right about 1988 and older being still excepted. So your 1987 model makes the cut too!

One of their BIG concerns was SMALL engines (no I'm not referring to those of you who chose to run a car with 1/2 an engine that only has 4 cyl. :D ).

Looks like we have a 928 speaking... Do you autocross it? 928 sighting becomes quite unusuall these days.

[yellowhotshoe]

Nope Stan, a V8 in a fake Cobra...the closest I come to a 928 (and since I'm somewhat follically challenged) is the saying 'there's no hair on a Porsche' :o

[soloZ]

All I can say is I'm very happy to have an AWD!! No problem passing the test in neutral :D :D

Sucks to have to do it every year though.

yea you cheaters get it your way everywhere don't you :p

[JAYh]

If anyone's interested, I'll post up a draught of a letter I wrote to my MPP, which I am also going to forward to the transportation minister, premier McTwitty, and anyone else useful I can think of.

Everyone should be up in arms about this if you're not already! Please write your MPPs and let them know that this IS still a democracy. We won't stand for useless bureaucratic hardships like this that really have no effect on pollution whatsoever.

If they get enough correspondence, they'll get the message. How long 'til provincial elections again?

- J

[Greg F]

http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envregistry/026516ep.htm

Comments should be directed to the following Contact Person:
Christopher Paulin, Senior Program Advisor
Drive Clean
40 St. Clair Ave. W.
Toronto, Ontario, M4V 1M2
PHONE: (416) 314-0375 FAX: (416) 314-4160

Additional material in support of this notice is available by clicking the following hyperlink(s):
http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envision/env_reg/er/documents/2005/PA05E0019.pdf


All comments will be considered as part of the decision-making by the Ministry if they:
are submitted in writing;
reference the EBR Registry number; and
are received by the Contact person within the specified comment period.
Please Note: No acknowledgment or individual response will be provided to those who comment. All comments and submissions received will become part of the public record.

I agree with Suzie that there seems to be no clear statement on what will happen with cars twenty years old and older. There do seem to be contradictory statements though. Also, are private cars considered light duty vehicles, or does this apply only to taxis and small buses?

At any rate, the whole thing seems to be just a publicity gimmick to make it seem like real work is being done to protect the environment, while no real money is being invested by the government.

Implementation dates have been given, but the policy is still in the proposal stage, so there is still time to lobby for changes.

I think they're also going to have a lot of upset shops that purchased dynos, complaining that OBDII testing increases their amortization period unfairly. Taxi drivers are also targeted, and we've already seen what they can do when they get upset.

[haniforama]

i am in favour of the changes. Older cars pollute and then after fixed, tend to pollute sooner so 1 year between checks is not unreasonable.

New cars do not normally pollute so 5 years before the first check is a good move.

Any car older than 1988 will still be exempt which is fine since they are rarely daily driven... Anything newer than 1988 will have emissions devices in place and they should be required to keep them functioning.

No complaints from me (and my family has 4 cars older than 12 years so I WILL be affected).

The only chance I dissagree with is OBD-II testing - you still need to sniff cars since computers CAN and WILL be faked.

[JAYh]

Ya, but testing for emissions doesn't mean improving emissions. Seriously, how far can a car deteriorate in one year vs. two?

Not to mention - consider the amount of pollution created when an entire new car has to be built instead of keeping one old beater on the road 'til the end of its useful life?

I hear so many stories of "oh, my car failed so I tweaked blah blah blah and set the timing so it ran like crap. Then it passed, and I went and set everything back the way it was so it runs properly." How can we rely on a test that fails cars when they run well and passes them when they sputter and gasp?

Mandatory emissions testing does nothing at all except empty our wallets.

- J

[Tashko]

yea you cheaters get it your way everywhere don't you :p

Cheaters!?! We're at a disadvantage 90% of the time! Although, today was an absolute blast with the awd and Hakka's. God I love this car!

Back to the topic.

Personally I think they should institute some safety test every year. I've seen two cars this week crabbing down the road with bent frames and wheels pointing every which way. The drivers could barely keep in their lanes!
Never mind the environment, it's f&$k'd. How many countries have "free zones" where corporations can dump all the waste they want into the ocean? How much pollution comes from airplane engines? I watch them come and go every day and there's one every minute. One trans-atlantic flight probably pollutes more than my car will in 100,000kms.

[haniforama]

One trans-atlantic flight probably pollutes more than my car will in 100,000kms.

But 300 people going 6000kms is about 1,800,000 kms total ;)

[J.C.]

How much pollution comes from airplane engines? I watch them come and go every day and there's one every minute.

The passenger planes tend to be the most enviromentally friendly. You should see some of the cargo planes. :(

[aviography]

Ya, but testing for emissions doesn't mean improving emissions. Seriously, how far can a car deteriorate in one year vs. two?

Not to mention - consider the amount of pollution created when an entire new car has to be built instead of keeping one old beater on the road 'til the end of its useful life?

<snip>

Mandatory emissions testing does nothing at all except empty our wallets.

- J

Well said, in fact it is exactly what I wanted to say except I was too lazy to type.

My 9.5 years old car passed the emission test this past summer with such good numbers again compared to the allowed maximum it really makes me wonder if every 3 years for newer cars would have been sufficient.

Every two years after the car is 10 (or 12) years old is reasonable, every year really seems excessive.

That said, I believ the emission test is still an annual requirement in California?

[gatherer]

Has there even been a measurable improvement in Air quality since the drive clean program came into being?

[miataboi]

you see the GTA smog in the summer... it's MF brutal... DEADLY, actually...

I'm all for it.
Good changes.

I try to conserve energy and fuel JUST because of the air Q.

[jduffett]

My 9.5 years old car passed the emission test this past summer with such good numbers again compared to the allowed maximum it really makes me wonder if every 3 years for newer cars would have been sufficient.
My car is 13 years old, and passed its first emissions test EVER with flying colours in October. I would think it would have to be either running very poorly, or with no cat, in order to fail. I'm all for reducing emissions, but I question whether this really has much impact.

[soloZ]

Cheaters!?! We're at a disadvantage 90% of the time! Although, today was an absolute blast with the awd and Hakka's. God I love this car!

Back to the topic.

Personally I think they should institute some safety test every year. I've seen two cars this week crabbing down the road with bent frames and wheels pointing every which way. The drivers could barely keep in their lanes!
Never mind the environment, it's f&$k'd. How many countries have "free zones" where corporations can dump all the waste they want into the ocean? How much pollution comes from airplane engines? I watch them come and go every day and there's one every minute. One trans-atlantic flight probably pollutes more than my car will in 100,000kms.

Well I meant more to the fact that two speed idle tests are a joke, no load on the engine at all. Made me wish I had baught a AWD car from the start.

[G-ForceJunkie]

Drive Clean is a joke.
http://www.carincanada.ca/smokescreen.htm

[soloZ]

Thats some interesting reading there.

[miataboi]

Thats some interesting reading there.

It's EASY to find exceptions.
it's not foolproof.

Make it like Cali... and you'd all be calling them smog-nazis.


there has been some improvements to the program re: cheating erc.


I read the ENTIRE report on the driveclean site...
you guys should do the same.

[George]

But I guess the McWhimpy gov't is probably full of the old fat bearded farts that have swelled the ranks of the 'biker' crowd trying to re-live their teens. :rolleyes:

Lol..The Accountant Bikers.

Drive clean is a crock.

Looks like pre 1988 will remain exempt though.