View Full Version : Since This Board Has Been So Quite :)
to all v8 owners...
considering the vast advantages to owning a large v8, and the vast quantities of torque and power they produce..i am not seeing a total domination of butt kicking that should be taking place....i would think the spread in time on these tracks should be much greater with the vast benefits of having so much more displacement at hand..
any v8 owner care to comment :)
( shamen...speak up :) )
nudge nudge...
Bad Karma
07-09-2002, 03:53 PM
This should be interesting. Everybody get their flame suits on for this round...
Let's take a look at the results from Events 3&4 at Shannonville (ah yes, in the wet, when all the torque is supposed to be a disadvantage...).
Blair pulled off a 57.159 with the Vette, while you (Adam) pulled a 60.636 in a *blown* 4-banger... 3.5 seconds on the Nelson track is massive difference.
And on the flipside, Alec pulled off a 56.795, which just goes to prove that comparing two cars, from two different classes, means absolutely nothing. Add in the fact that you've got two different drivers, and the big V8 vs blown 4-banger discussion goes out the window.
It's virtually impossible to *win* this argument, since generally the two cars being discussed are so different that it doesn't matter.
I still go back to my baseline example. In the ALMS, BMW (actually, PTG) ran the 2000 season with an M3, with a highly strung 3.2L I6 motor (good for about 380 HP at the crank). Fully race prepped, and moderately competitive with the Porsches.
For 2001, BMW (via AC Schnitzer and PTG again), ran an M3 with the 4.0L V8 that BMW built for the car. It's good for about 444 HP at the crank, and in the GT class of most races, the BMWs finished 1-2-3-4. Same drivers, same class, etc. Essentially, the only thing that changed was the powerplant. And the V8 proved to be a more successful motor for that car, in that series.
It's by no means an absolutely scientific test, but both performance AND reliability improved with the V8. It's only one example, but it does demonstrate the point (I hesitate to say prove, because in motorsports, somebody can ALWAYS spend more money, and be faster as a result).
Pat
Flame suit on...
Shaman
07-09-2002, 04:12 PM
I'll let you know once my car is in shape again. I take it for the fix next week and should make some August/September events.
FWIW, I have a 56.2s time at Mosport DDT, reverse perimeter. There's a 76 second time set by a stock Z06 on the Pro Track last year as well that is a good one to beat.
flame suit on.....flamer engaged...fire.. :)
ok...lets forget events #3 and 4..since the rain was to much of an issue..some of us got to race in the dry and some in the rain....and i did not even finish the day off due to damage to the car from an off
lets look at this weekends results...who has them ?
consider this..my best on nelson with my stock 4 banger NA motor from 2 years ago is in the 57's :)
now who has those results?
Shaman
07-10-2002, 08:37 AM
The nelson definitely favours a lightweight, short car. It does allow a driver to get down some power in a total of three spots, but realistically, not long enough to make much of a difference between cars that are, say, 2:1 different in power to weight ratio. If any circuit is going to reward your car, that's it.
on sunday at DDT the vettes were in the 61's from what i remember, i was in the 62's and alec in the type r was in the 63's.....
i guess we will have to wait for the pro track to see how much the v8 power has an advantage on that back straight :)
ctenche
07-10-2002, 09:11 AM
Bad KarmaFor 2001, BMW (via AC Schnitzer and PTG again), ran an M3 with the 4.0L V8 that BMW built for the car. It's good for about 444 HP at the crank, and in the GT class of most races, the BMWs finished 1-2-3-4.
Those cars were/are absolutely amazing. The sound of that motor revving was incredible. Almost sounded like an F1 car. I had the opportunity to be in the pits during last year's ALMS race at Mosport and those BMWs SCREAMED as they pulled out of the pits. Simply incredible.
Too bad politics have kept them out of this year's races.
all the m3's should have the v8 version of the motor..that car is a powerhouse...
caius ..when are you coming out? we have missed you this whole season so far....
ctenche
07-10-2002, 01:20 PM
Yeah, I don't know what's wrong with me this year. I haven't done any Solo 1 events at all. Besides instructing at the Solo 1 school and doing a BMW school at the Mosport big track (which was awesome BTW) I've been participating in a spec outdoor karting series in Hamilton (see link (http://www.cameronmotorsports.com) for more info). Karting has been a lot of fun but I miss everyone at Solo 1. The comraderie was more than half the fun and it just doesn't exist with the karting folks. Don't know why.
Anyway, I'm scheduled for the next Shannonville weeked so I will see you guys there.
Bubblecar
07-10-2002, 01:25 PM
Anyway, I'm scheduled for the next Shannonville weeked so I will see you guys there.
Hooray! Great to see you coming back out to an event. Unfortunatley, I won't be there (sentra series at Mosport), but I wish you luck and hope you have a great weekend.
Nick
I was in the same second as the Z06's on the DDT (counter clockwise with a kink thrown in) last year on a sickly motor and no camber to speak of, beating one of them and being within 2 tenths of the fastest one. In practice earlier this year in near freezing conditions I ran in the low 56's on the full outer perimeter of the DDT counter clockwise. On a warm day on fresh tires low 55's easy. Wish I hadn't blown the poor thing up :mad:
david... i wish you would get your car going and come out..you are missing a great season...with your driving skills 4cyl domination is almost assured...
now here is a hot topic...what about 6cyl..what is happening to them...what cars are even out in solo 1 with 6cyl? i think bmw's are the only ones?
hey jay (captain hindgrinder), what was your car doing on sunday? you were in the 64's no?
Chris Sorensen in a well prepped M3 would be a scary fast 6 cylinder car, assuming there are no curbs in site for him to pound :D I had heard that Bruce Murphy was going to do up his M3 right for SS1 this year, but I think instead he's running his a vintage car or a Porsche or something.
There are some pretty cool 6 cylinder cars out there, we just haven't seen any for Solo 1 yet. Something like a Maxima SE with it's 265 hp (and lots of torque) engine with the right suspension bits would be damn fast, as would a Acura CL Type S with Tein suspension. We've had a few fast 240/260/280 Z cars come out over the years. A couple years ago there was a beautiful 240 that ran in B/SP with Nino and did very well. Sweet sounding engine too. And aren't 911's a six? A race prepped 911 is a damn fast car. There were quite a few at the OTC this year, in fact the overall winner was in a 914/6 with home-built turbos. He beat some pretty fast cars, like an F40 Ferrari, a mega prepped supercharged NSX, Vipers, Z06's and the whole nine yards. Canadian dude too!
Personally, I think a well prepped C4 or C5 is a tough car to beat. You could build a DAMN fast C4 with less money than I have in my Civic and have the joys of a big V8 roaring under the hood and RWD for lots of tail happy fun. I grew up running Corvettes, so I have to say I really miss all that torque and RWD set up. I think my next race car will be something RWD, maybe even a kit car like a Cobra, Factory 5, or Caterham. Of course first I need to get a few good seasons and hopefully some GT racing out of my little red tin can :)
are you going to OTC next year?
we might have a convoy :)
I'd love to go again, it just depends on finances, my employment situation, and of course Debb :) Geo and I have talked about doing T4 again in his ITR instead of my Civic (since his car is less tuning sensative we could get away with the shitty pump gas out there) or maybe we'd trailer my car down and run it in U4 with whatever tires we want and trailer it between events too (avoiding pump gas all together). We'll see, but there's a chance we'll go, just not sure how good a chance at this time.
Anyway, if we do go again it would be awesome to have a convoy of Ontario based teams to go down with! Or maybe we'll just run our own OTC type event in Ontario :)
we will have to see later in the season...either 1 lap or OTC..though OTC seems like more fun and track time....though 1 lap has less rules..
does OTC have any rules against NOS?
so..back to the motor wars thread... :)
nope, no rule against NOS. You can whatever kind of power boosters you want. Still, you won't need NOS to do well in your class so instead of trying to reinvent the wheel with all your turbo NOS insanity how about if you get a real suspension instead :p
he he..yeah that might just be the answer to beat the v8's since i am running on a street suspension set up right now....that might be too cruel though dave on the v8's...though just upping the boost to 14psi might be easier and much cheaper :)
well i could see my self bringing my 10lb nos bottle and the big bad boy 20lb bottle with me...and just flick it on during some extended straight aways.... :)
boost and nos..boost and nos..boost and nos...i am suprized you honda boys are not running more nos? or turbos for that matter... trying to wring power out of those small motors with NA is hard..
Shaman
07-10-2002, 06:23 PM
If it takes stripping the interior, lots of forced induction and moving to racing gas to beat my street car, that's OK with me. :) I fill up wherever there's premium.
Dave Barker
07-10-2002, 08:49 PM
Adam , I'm suprised that you are boasting of your times run on a definite HONDA track . For those of you not aware , last wkend we ran a downhill kink both days which significanlty slowed down any powerful car and an infield kink and loop at the bottom of the track on Saturday only . The net effect was that I was in 4 th gear once per lap for about 2 seconds, and on Saturday we had 6 second gear corners , 3 of them virtually 180 degrees. Certainly not a situation that allows much use of power and favours a lighter more nimble car . BTW with the abscence of Colin Jennison and Jud Buchanan , I won the award for the heaviest car there ( if only there was one ) .
Then we have to discuss power to wgt ratios , What does Massa 1 weigh ? With the sub frames my Camaro is about 3510 lb but if does manage to be my daily driver ( no trailer queen here ) . How about weight to tire size ratios ? Some people who are prepared to spend enough can run my car with 315s with great benefit but I am stuck at 275s .
he he..hi dave... we had quite some good battles going on out there this weekend...well the protrack is coming up so the big v8's will be able to show thier stuff...though i think you will be very suprized what turbo motors do top end...on sunday i was catching a bit of 5th gear on that small back straight away :)
ok...we have a camero at 3510lbs with 275's
then we have nissan at 2700lbs with 225's
tire to weight ratio...
camero= 12.76lbs per mm
nissan=12lbs per mm
sorry not much difference there :)
both rear wheel drive about the same front to rear weight balance....
camero has....??hp...and ?? torque
nissan has....238hp...and 255ftlbs
i think the M3 would have won the second prize for heaviest car..they weigh in at 3300+lbs
well since we are gridded together most times...at the pro track we can see who is pulling on who on that big back straight :)
even then...look at the times alec was posting in his type r...very impressive...since i don't think that car has over 200hp.... kudos to alec...
Shaman
07-11-2002, 09:01 AM
Lap times are 90% driver and 10% car anyway. The back straight is so short that making up half a second on a car in your class is highly unlikely even if you have 200hp more power.
Trust me on this. Even the Pro track is too small to really get down power. You're only flying fast for a few seconds a lap. Major differences in accelerative power sometimes don't even show themselves dramatically on the big tracks.
ha ha..so doesn't this just prove my original arguement that a smaller nimble car is better then....
or do we have to race in utah on the salt flats for the v8's to be able to show thier stuff :) how big of a straight do you want?
Shaman
07-11-2002, 10:21 AM
Like I said, if you have to use racing fuel, strip the interior and run dangerous boost levels to keep up, I'm OK with that. :)
i am running on ultra 94..can use 94 to about 14psi safely...my stock compression was 8.5:1 ...whats wrong with a bit of race fuel spiked in if needed...? the only danger is detonation..and if you use good fuel that won't happen..
lets keep in mind the poor nissan is also 13 years old, and is a single overhead cam motor..so its not a bastion of high technology design.....now if someone were to turbo a type r motor (alec) and run 116 fuel on 15psi of boost..that would be a very nasty combo
turbocharging is great..for a small displacement motor its the only way to go...
Chris P
07-11-2002, 12:44 PM
Does somebody want to donate money to the S2000 CRX project. Think about it, my car with an S2000 engine and drive train....
mmmmmmm 240hp 9000rpm rear wheel drive CRX.............. You would all be in trouble!! All i need is $20,000. Anybody?????
PS, i still don't have 100hp and only a half a second off Alecs times..........
JGraves
07-11-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Shaman
Lap times are 90% driver and 10% car anyway. The back straight is so short that making up half a second on a car in your class is highly unlikely even if you have 200hp more power.
If I had 200 more HP, I could save about 3 sec on the back straight at Shannonville.
Jeff
Shaman
07-11-2002, 01:24 PM
On the run? Doubtful, but possibly. Depends on the car. If you don't have a great deal of forward thrust to begin with, it will make a difference. Those running the back straight in 14 seconds or less find it a lot harder to get that time down than you'd think... see, not only is there higher speed, there's longer braking times to go with it, and more brake wear... and more tire wear... and more room for error...
chris lets find a smacked up s2000 and pull the motor on it :)
Originally posted by Chris P
Does somebody want to donate money to the S2000 CRX project. Think about it, my car with an S2000 engine and drive train....
mmmmmmm 240hp 9000rpm rear wheel drive CRX.............. You would all be in trouble!! All i need is $20,000. Anybody?????
PS, i still don't have 100hp and only a half a second off Alecs times..........
JGraves
07-11-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Shaman
If you don't have a great deal of forward thrust to begin with, it will make a difference.
Exactly. Comparing my stock 140HP Miata to a turbo'ed 340HP Miata will yield huge gains while adding 200HP to you 500+HP Firebird won't make much difference at all.
Jeff
Dave Barker
07-11-2002, 11:48 PM
Adam
" nissan has....238hp...and 255ftlbs "
97 LT1 camaro
285 hp and 325 lb/ft of torque at the crank.
estimate 255 hp at the wheels ( thats what my G tech says)
3510 lb with subframes but no trailer needed
Air conditioning ( That works !!) , reasonable stereo and stock exhaust so I can hear said stereo . You should blow me away you overboosted wrecker of catalytic converters. I did appreciate the warnings your Hawk blues gave me as you caught up to me though.
he he... yeah those pads were squealing...
hey i had you buy a good margin.. 1.53 seconds :)
i have air conditioning..i just open my window..and if really hot..my sunroof :)
stereo..for sure...turbo hiss up front..noisy fuel pump in rear... :)
and to top it off..the car is still street driven..plated....stickered...and even has a CATALYTIC converter..ok well the last event seemed to spew most of it out the exhaust..guess it does not like being rich ?
you have to look at it like this..both cars are street machines..so its a fair v8 vs 4cyl battle type arguement...though i think in a long straight line you might be a bit quicker?
Shaman
07-23-2002, 03:29 PM
Dave's car really is just about stock, though. Or at least, by my way of thinking. :) It's his daily driver even in the winter, IIRC?
yeah but they are both street vehicles..one with a big V8 and one with a 4cyl....whether they are stock or not is not the issue..
unless you want to compare a Lt1 engine to a base civic motor with 93bhp or less :)
Shaman
07-23-2002, 03:34 PM
Hrm. Don't think I want involvement in such a line of thinking.
he he :)
shamen...when is your beast coming out...are you making the thing out titanium or something..whats the hold up..the seasons 1/2 over
Shaman
07-23-2002, 03:48 PM
Wish I knew, the engine shop is dragging their feet on getting their act together for my car. It hasn't even gone in yet... keep getting pushed back because they're busy.
Another year of that and I'll be moving on to a stock class or something, life's too short to be waiting.
I have put in some quality motorcycle time in, though.
Dave Barker
07-23-2002, 07:33 PM
Adam , with your better power to weight ratio the only way I should beat you down a straight is at really high speed where that show car wing may provide enough drag to slow you down . Meanwhile in the corners my 250 lb of unsprung live axle will likely show you the way ( NOT) . The reallly interesting thing will be to see if the gap between your car and mine increases or decreases on the faster tracks . This would give us some idea if it is the power or the handling that is making the difference. Unfortunately I will be lucky to make even one day at Cayuga ( excuse me TMP)
Steve , you are right . Considering that a stock Camaro is hardly a work of art , I don't have a beater and just drive it all winter . Fortunately it is big enough to carry my skiis and or hockey bags for me and a buddy. And you thought it was only good for transporting 4 race rims and tires !
alexb
07-23-2002, 08:49 PM
Show car wing
we will see at shannonville....since that is the fastest track....
making fun of my big ugly wing ehh :) well the wing does cause some drag...but i had the car in a top speed run and it was easliy able to get up to 240kph with the silly wing on the back....silly or not it has made a huge differnce in the handling of the car..it has really settled down the rear end on high speed corners...
live axle......? they still make those :)
Originally posted by Dave Barker
Adam , with your better power to weight ratio the only way I should beat you down a straight is at really high speed where that show car wing may provide enough drag to slow you down . Meanwhile in the corners my 250 lb of unsprung live axle will likely show you the way ( NOT) . The reallly interesting thing will be to see if the gap between your car and mine increases or decreases on the faster tracks . This would give us some idea if it is the power or the handling that is making the difference. Unfortunately I will be lucky to make even one day at Cayuga ( excuse me TMP)
Steve , you are right . Considering that a stock Camaro is hardly a work of art , I don't have a beater and just drive it all winter . Fortunately it is big enough to carry my skiis and or hockey bags for me and a buddy. And you thought it was only good for transporting 4 race rims and tires !
Director
07-24-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Shaman
Wish I knew, the engine shop is dragging their feet on getting their act together for my car. It hasn't even gone in yet... keep getting pushed back because they're busy.
Another year of that and I'll be moving on to a stock class or something, life's too short to be waiting.
I have put in some quality motorcycle time in, though.
Well Steve,
I still have my Camaro sitting here in race trim ready to go. You could stop waiting, get off the couch, buy it, race, have some fun, all while the Supreme Firechicken sits awaiting resurrection.
Hmmmmm, think about it.
:D
show car wings rule!
http://www.hadamotorsport.com/new/OTC/BigAssWing.jpg
Dave Barker
07-24-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by ADAM
[B
live axle......? they still make those :)
[/B]
Unfortunately yes . OTOH I always figure it is a greater measure of skill trying to hustle a dinosaur around the track than a point and shoot front driver or an electronically yaw pitch and roll controlled rear driver .
Silver Fox
07-25-2002, 07:34 AM
Hey guy's (and ladies),
I'm new to the forum and I have been reading this V8 big car vs 4 cyl. small car battle with alot of interest. I am currently working on a project with the express intension of racing with you next season.......how about a '87 Fiero, 3800 II V6, 5 spd and about 250 hp in a 2500lb car? Where would that fit in with your discusion ??
Silver Fox
Hey Adam..... That wing doesn't seem to work so good in the rain!
What's up with that?
Looks like you need to upgrade, I suggest a DC-10 or maybe a 747, but nothing smaller than a Dash-8!
Ya heard!:p
Ps. Don't ya just love those emoticons..... kinda like a license to post anything! ;)
your fiero is in the middle ground..you could either sway to the 4cyl side..or go to the v8 side...you are in dangerous territory :)
not sure how a fiero would do? i always liked them..how does it handle? power wise you should be ok..
hindslapper ..the problem in the rain is the power delivery..the wretched turbo just kicks the rear all over the place when it comes on...not much traction at all :)the rear is very very light
how bout some wings from a cessna? :)
hind reefer... what beer do you want for aug 9-10-11 ?
Silver Fox
07-25-2002, 09:22 AM
It handle great!! weight dist. is 46% front and 54% rear....handles even better when driven hard
what class are fiero's in?
is that a modified motor?
Shaman
07-25-2002, 09:53 AM
I've seen some bloody fast Fieros. And Perry, don't think I haven't thought about your car... but I think I'd get into a 1st gen RX7 first, something small and light for variety. I'd still like to have a Super7 copy too. Cars are a sickness, you know.
Silver Fox
07-25-2002, 10:06 AM
I have no idea where I would be placed as far as class goes, I will be out to watch you guys either Aug 10/11 or Aug. 24/25 and will be asking a sh**load of questions !
As for the engine....the only thing done is some head porting and a free flow exhaust.
So we'll see where the car gets placed and I'll go hard at it from there !
Silver Fox
Silver Fox
07-25-2002, 10:11 AM
....a question I have about this debate......don't you guys with the higher hp FWD cars find it harder to control in the corners ???
More so than RWD ??
Silver Fox
Adam.... Alexander Keiths India Pale Ale. Brewed by my old buddy Derek Oland, who funny enough use to race a Porsche 911.
"Those that like it like it a lot"
ok...bought a 24 of keiths....
jay you coming out lapping aug 9?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER!
Yeah I am there buddy! I hope to see lots of cars out for the lapping on Fri!
You comming on the 9th Adam?
yep..100% i will be there with my beast..he he...and possibly just maybe with my new 72lb injectors ..and lots more boost :)
beer and racing...yeah, there's a good idea boys :rolleyes:
SilverFox, I wouldn't say it's hard to drive a higher horsepower FWD car, though a limited slip differential is a must as is a willingness to throttlesteer and run very high spring rates in the rear of the car to get it to rotate in the corners. Truthfully, my 230hp 2000 lbs Civic is dead easy to drive because it's so light and tossable. Definitely easier to go fast in than my 200hp 3000 lbs Prelude was. Still, having learned to Solo in a Corvette I would still say there are inherent advantages to RWD not to mention it's a whole lot of fun having control of the ass end of the car with the throttle.
BTW, your Fiero sounds like it'll be fast and a bunch of fun to drive! Looking forward to seeing you out at the track :)
Cheers,
Dave
the beers for after the racing :) not during...though with you honda drivers we may not notice either way :)
Moose
07-26-2002, 01:36 PM
Adam,
You are one to talk about not noticing things ..... it took you, what a month, to notice a "Powered by Honda" decal on the trunklid of your car ... maybe it was the enormous shadows cast by the wing
At least us Honda drivers have a valid excuss .... beer ....
: P
Moose
once i got home from the race..i just took it off the trailer...parked it in my garage, and closed the door..i was away on holidays for a week, and i went in the garage this week, and lo and behold a honda sticker on the back of my car.. i thought...gee wiz maybe someone broke into the garage and swapped out my turbo KA for a type R VTEC
you guys really don't like that wing do you ?
i would say that other than race tires it has been the best handling addition that i have bought so far..it has really calmed the car down..not sure if you have seen me in my early solo 1 years..i have several video tapes of me looping that car in corners..it was maniacal to drive..the rear was just too loose..now its very calm at speed..and very controlable
just wait..i am getting my cutting tools out soon to make swiss cheese out of my hood..there are going to be several very unsightly holes in my hood to vent engine bay heat out...ala WRC style..of course with grating behind the holes...honda style...
as far as bling bling goes..i think honda cars pretty much take 1st place for add on stuff :)
hey...you also had a moose strapped to the top of your car..so lets not talk :)
Shaman
07-26-2002, 02:42 PM
I wonder if it's the downforce or just the sheer crushing weight of that wing helping you out... :D
ha ha ha :)
a bit of both :)
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.