Question regarding classification...

[Maddog]

OK, I have an 86 Camaro Z28 with a 350 & 6-spd. Since it originally came with a 305, 5-spd, I believe this will put me in the E SP Class. Now these cars came originally with a torque arm, but I have replaced the OEM with an aftermarker unit, same with the rear lower control arms. THe torque arms is in it's original mounting location, but the mounting location on the rear diff for the lower control arms has been lowered. Do I have to take the 3 pts for the "other suspension mods"? The rest of the suspension is stock.

Am I even considering the proper class or should I be in Modified? The engine is heavily modified (350+ HP).

This classification is hard on my head..LOL.

Do alot of you guys run both Solo 1 and 2? I was planning on doing events in both, and if they don't conflict with each other, I might do all events in each category.

[Guillermo]

Do alot of you guys run both Solo 1 and 2?

Several guys including myself compete in both the Ontario Regional solo 2 and solo 1 series. In winter I'm ice racing :D

Solo 2 will make you a better solo 1 driver,
and solo1 will make you a better solo 2 driver,
and then ice racing will expand on all those skills while teaching you how to deal with wheel to wheel traffic :eek:

I can't help you with your car classification question, i've only competed in stock class.

[Gen1GT]

Sounds like mod class to me.

[thekid]

Sounds like mod class to me.

If that motor wasn't ever available in that car, then it's definitely mod... if it was available in that chassis and year it might qualify for the update/backdate rule.

[Marsh]

The suspension mods you've done are legal in SP when suspension points are claimed.

The engine is another matter. You need to read section 6.6.I re: update back date. Long story short, you can put in the 350 if it was available in another model of Camaro from the same body generation.

Note that from some retarded reason this rule says that you can only swap transmissions in their entirety, and not components. However immediately above this rule transmissions are a free mod meaning anything goes. So... your 6-speed is free.

You will then need to read the engine/drive-train section and determine if you have enough prep-points to account for the engine modifications.

[yellowhotshoe]

Come to MOD my pretty.....Heee Heeee Heeee!

[Pete@Marcor]

If that motor wasn't ever available in that car, then it's definitely mod... if it was available in that chassis and year it might qualify for the update/backdate rule.

Well, since a 350 is really only a bored 305, one could get the displacement from claiming engine points. Then, depending upon your other engine related points, you could get it into SP. That, and the backdate/update rule, as one could buy a 350 in a 91-92 car.

Since the transmission rule is pretty open, then you should be good to get your car into SP. But, you will need to add up all of your points, just to be sure.

[Maddog]

Thanks guys.

The 350 was available in a VERY limited number (less than 100) of IROC Zs in 1986, and full blown production in 87. The "generation" for these cars is the same from 82 to 92.

That means I can run in Class E SP which gives me 8 pts to play with.
+3 pts Suspension
+2 pts Headers
+4 pts Engine mods
-1 pt Fire Extinguiser
-----------
8 pts :)

[Maddog]

BTW Marsh, I was driving through Woodstock last September and noticed what you guys were doing in that mall parking lot. That's when I got curious and started researching this stuff...so it's your fault that I'm speding all this money for this..LOL.

[Pete@Marcor]

Is the engine listed in the link in your signature the same one we are talking about?

Because, as of the 2005 rulebook, you are NOT allowed to change the stoke in the engine. Hopefully this will change, but at the moment, you can only bore your engine, even if you are taking engine points.

Also, if you have done ANY changes in your induction, you are going to have to claim points for them. Tuned Port cars have some issues making those big hp numbers in stock form.

[JoeT]

Well, since a 350 is really only a bored 305, one could get the displacement from claiming engine points. Then, depending upon your other engine related points, you could get it into SP. That, and the backdate/update rule, as one could buy a 350 in a 91-92 car.

Since the transmission rule is pretty open, then you should be good to get your car into SP. But, you will need to add up all of your points, just to be sure.

Pete,

By using that "interpretation" can I do the following, since the 2.5 is really a bored out 2.2 in Subaru Speak, does that mean I can swap in a 2.2?

Answer "not really". By literal interpretation of the rules, a swap is a swap and puts the car in Mod class.

Hope this helps.

[Pete@Marcor]

Pete,

By using that "interpretation" can I do the following, since the 2.5 is really a bored out 2.2 in Subaru Speak, does that mean I can swap in a 2.2?

Answer "not really". By literal interpretation of the rules, a swap is a swap and puts the car in Mod class.

Hope this helps.

Is the 2.5 REALLY a bored 2.2? Or, are there other differences? No-one can tell the differences between a 305 block and a 350 block, if one were to bore a 305 block to the 350 bore. There MAY be casting numbers specific to the 305s and 350s, but if one were to grind off those numbers, those blocks would be indisguinshable. Is this true of the Subaru engines?

The concern is that the resulting bore must be possible in the OE block, without adding material.

Can you take all of the rotating parts from a 2.2 and install them in your 2.5 block? Except for the cost of doing the swap, is it feasible to do that? It is in the SBC.

[Maddog]

Is the engine listed in the link in your signature the same one we are talking about?

Because, as of the 2005 rulebook, you are NOT allowed to change the stoke in the engine. Hopefully this will change, but at the moment, you can only bore your engine, even if you are taking engine points.

Also, if you have done ANY changes in your induction, you are going to have to claim points for them. Tuned Port cars have some issues making those big hp numbers in stock form.
No, that's not my car on that site. Sorry for the confusion. My 350 is the same stroke as the original 305 at 3.48". Yes, this is a carburated induction system like the original 305 had (QJet carb), except it has an Edelbrock intake. I thought the 4 pt hit I was taking for the engine mods covered all that?

BTW, a 305 (3.73" bore) cannot be bored out the 350 (4" bore), but you are right, the block are the on the exterior unless you can squeeze your head between the firewall to read the casting number.

[JoeT]

Is the 2.5 REALLY a bored 2.2? Or, are there other differences? No-one can tell the differences between a 305 block and a 350 block, if one were to bore a 305 block to the 350 bore. There MAY be casting numbers specific to the 305s and 350s, but if one were to grind off those numbers, those blocks would be indisguinshable. Is this true of the Subaru engines?

The concern is that the resulting bore must be possible in the OE block, without adding material.

Can you take all of the rotating parts from a 2.2 and install them in your 2.5 block? Except for the cost of doing the swap, is it feasible to do that? It is in the SBC.


Yes this is true. You can swap any subaru internal to any subaru block, the differences will be the bore in 90% of the time. As a matter of fact, I can swap my crank shaft into almost any subaru block since from 10 - 11 years ago.

You must read the rule book and take the meaning as it is written, and not read anything into it. Do you know how much money I would have saved if I just did a SWAP with an EJ257 (subaru engine code) rather than having to fabricate tons of junk and bolting them on to my stock engine.

A swap is a swap is a swap, unless it's exactly the same block. As for grinding off the engine codes on the block, why would anyone be so "Crafty" in hiding the fact that they did a swap unless they felt guilty?

[JoeT]

Maddog,

In order for you to get an accurate ruling on your situation, please forward your request directly to the CAC representative and let them decide. People giving you their "interpretations" (including mine) on this site may just put you in a situation that you many not want to be in.

The CAC representative is Wes Tanney and I can forward you his email address or you can send him a Personal Message on this site, he posts as Tanney.

Hope this helps.

[Pete@Marcor]

You must read the rule book and take the meaning as it is written, and not read anything into it. Do you know how much money I would have saved if I just did a SWAP with an EJ257 (subaru engine code) rather than having to fabricate tons of junk and bolting them on to my stock engine.

A swap is a swap is a swap, unless it's exactly the same block. As for grinding off the engine codes on the block, why would anyone be so "Crafty" in hiding the fact that they did a swap unless they felt guilty?

I agree totally. But, if your components were a direct changeover, why would you have needed to fabricate "tons of junk"? The SBC block is identical.

My point was that there IS a way of telling what the displacement was on SOME Chevy blocks, because of the block casting numbers. I get the feeling that there are obviously some differences in Subaru engines.

Are you suggesting that if one CHANGES the engine, IE - swaps in another SAME engine, one should have to take the swap rule, and move to mod? So, one would have to grind off the casting number off another 305, so that they could not get protested. That is what your "interpretation" tells me.

And, if ANY competitor simply asks his peers and fellow competitors for advice, and then follows what he feels is correct, without asking the appropriate people, he is possibly in for a rude awakening. The rulebook clearly states whom he needs to talk to.

Engine points are ONLY for the long block. No induction, no exhaust or other driveline parts. So, 2 points for the intake.

[JoeT]

I agree totally. But, if your components were a direct changeover, why would you have needed to fabricate "tons of junk"? The SBC block is identical.

Are you trying to tell me that if you CHANGE the engine, IE - swap in another SAME engine, one should have to take the swap rule, and move to mod?

Actually, I'm not telling you anything, I'm trying to understand your interpretation, and also informing Maddog to go through the CAC for clarification.

Why? Do you feel like you're being told something?

Read the entire text, not just the ones that interest you.

[Pete@Marcor]

Actually, I'm not telling you anything, I'm trying to understand your interpretation, and also informing Maddog to go through the CAC for clarification.

Why? Do you feel like you're being told something?

Read the entire text, not just the ones that interest you.

I was reading all, and they all interest me.

You can swap any subaru internal .....

I did feel that I was getting told something because you quoted me and used the word YOU. If you were addressing the whole community, I would have expected that you would have used a more generic noun. To make my post less person-specific, I have edited it for you. :)

[JoeT]

I was reading all, and they all interest me.



I did feel that I was getting told something because you quoted me and used the word YOU. If you were addressing the whole community, I would have expected that you would have used a more generic noun. To make my post less person-specific, I have edited it for you. :)

That's so kind of you.

Have a great day! :D

[finboy]

for sp and update/backdate rule.. it has to be available for that body generation and be a DIRECT BOLT IN, NO modifications/altering to do the swap

if the 6speed came with that engine then no worries because it has to be done as a unit (like marsh said BUT did the 6 speed come with that generation body?)

Street Prepared 6.6 I iii (page 6-15)

http://www.solo2ontario.com/info/documents/CASC-OR-2005-Rulebook-Final.pdf


one note.. read 6.6 I i, iii
if you do the swap from another model see vii (might put you into a different class)


1) read the rule book
2) read what it says in ink, not what you "think" it means for your application
3) after you counted your points, contact the solo II director

if you don't agree with his/her opinon on the rules.. run what you want, just
don't be surprised if your prep points get questioned

[finboy]

Well, since a 350 is really only a bored 305, one could get the displacement from claiming engine points. Then, depending upon your other engine related points, you could get it into SP. That, and the backdate/update rule, as one could buy a 350 in a 91-92 car.

Since the transmission rule is pretty open, then you should be good to get your car into SP. But, you will need to add up all of your points, just to be sure.


:confused:

"since a 350 is realy a bored 305...."

"transmission rule is pretty open...."

[Pete@Marcor]

:confused:

"since a 350 is realy a bored 305...."

"transmission rule is pretty open...."

Not sure just what is confusing about it, but:

"6.6.H.iii) The transmission, differential, and transaxle may be modified or substituted, provided....."

Point Prep Schedule:
"Any other internal engine modifications, subject to the restrictions below:
Reciprocating engine: The cylinder bore may be increased, provided the resulting increase can be achieved within the standard equipment block/barrels without the need to add material to the block/barrels. The number and location of camshafts...... The stroke may not be changed."

This is the current, or 2005 rule.

[Maddog]

I sent a PM to Tanner for clarification, but what it looks like is I would be placed in the Modified class, and this will make me non-competitive. I think the rules are more geared towards small cars.

For example; that 6-spd was not available in that generation, but what's the advantage with regards to Solo2? The gear ratios from the 5-spd and 6-spd are almost identical from 1st to 4th which I'd probably only use 1st & 2nd anyhow. Also, from what I understand is 350+ HP is NOT going to help me in autocrossing unless I have the appropriate suspension to put that power to the ground.

Bottomline, I'm getting punished for having a big motor. If I had the stock engine I'd be in SS class instead of modified.

I guess I'll have to stick to Solo 1 of just do Solo 2 for the fun of it and not expect to be competitive.

[finboy]

Not sure just what is confusing about it, but:

"6.6.H.iii) The transmission, differential, and transaxle may be modified or substituted, provided....."

correct me if i'm wrong.. but that only applies if he's NOT using the update/backdate allowance



Point Prep Schedule:
"Any other internal engine modifications, subject to the restrictions below:
Reciprocating engine: The cylinder bore may be increased, provided the resulting increase can be achieved within the standard equipment block/barrels without the need to add material to the block/barrels. The number and location of camshafts...... The stroke may not be changed."

This is the current, or 2005 rule.

key words.. standard equipment.. (not similar equipment.. 305/350 or 2.2/2.5)

[finboy]

For example; that 6-spd was not available in that generation


-since the swap isn't complete.. yup MOD (thats why i asked.. i thought the 5.7 only came auto for that body gen)


Bottomline, I'm getting punished for having a big motor. If I had the stock engine I'd be in SS class instead of modified.

I guess I'll have to stick to Solo 1 of just do Solo 2 for the fun of it and not expect to be competitive.

Punished? if you sayso

[Maddog]

Punished might be the wrong word but you know what I mean. A 2500 lbs with a 50 HP engine mod, vs a 3500 lbs with a 50HP mod...You see what I'm getting at?

So unless I go with a full blown race suspension, I pretty much don't have a chance in MOD class, unless over half the competitors are in the same boat (no pun intended) I am I guess. I'll probably try a few events to see how it goes I guess.

THanks for the help guys. :)

[finboy]

if you want to be competitive.. you gotz to be realistic and prep your car to the max (cost isn't always an issue, since people can do fatastic gains.. very cheaply)


it will be a challenge to prep your car to the max for BOTH I and II

would be easier.. in a STOCK class

[Pete@Marcor]

correct me if i'm wrong.. but that only applies if he's NOT using the update/backdate allowance

That is in the authorized mods. A 6 speed gearbox was never available in that generation, so it would not fall under the update/backdate.


key words.. standard equipment.. (not similar equipment.. 305/350 or 2.2/2.5)

Ok, take the 4 engine points. Bore the FACTORY block. One now has a 350 cu. in /5.7L engine.

[Pete@Marcor]

-since the swap isn't complete.. yup MOD (thats why i asked.. i thought the 5.7 only came auto for that body gen)

The OE car could have had a 305, carb, and a 5 speed. Bore the OE block, to get to a 350 (taking engine points). Claim authorized mods for a trans swap. You now have the combo that is being asked about.

I still do not see a MOD car. But, since I don't make the decision, the competitor would want to ask the appropriate rep on the CNAC TAC.

[finboy]

That is in the authorized mods. A 6 speed gearbox was never available in that generation, so it would not fall under the update/backdate.


exactly.. so how can anyone say tranny is open??

a) no engine swaps.. its free

b) engine swaps.. its pretty specifc that it must be done as a unit




Ok, take the 4 engine points. Bore the FACTORY block. One now has a 350 cu. in /5.7L engine.

its in black and white.. that's why I think Joe was asking/illustrating about the 2.2 => 2.5 swap

even if its a direct bolt in.. same block just different bore size

you can't do it.. "standard equipment"

[13inches]

The competitor may just want to compete in a few club series' to get his feet wet and have some fun, instead of worrying about rules and classing so much.

:)

[finboy]

The OE car could have had a 305, carb, and a 5 speed. Bore the OE block, to get to a 350 (taking engine points). Claim authorized mods for a trans swap. You now have the combo that is being asked about.

I still do not see a MOD car. But, since I don't make the decision, the competitor would want to ask the appropriate rep on the CNAC TAC.

the engine is fine..

but that transmission never came with that gen of body (only after that series)

if it was mated to the 5-speed.. i don't think its a problem then


see sec 6.6 I vi (page 6-15)


thats why it gets bumped to mod.. no??

[gatherer]

the update backdate rules for anyone interested:

I. Updating and Backdating of Parts
i) Interchange of components between various years of the same model or between various models produced by the same manufacturer under the same brand name is permitted.
ii) The component must be standard equipment on the vehicle from which it was taken.
iii) The vehicle from which the component is taken must be of the same body configuration and type and have the same drive train configuration as that on which the component will be installed. Same body configuration for the purposes of update/backdate is defined as a specific model generation of a vehicle where the body style remained nearly identical between years. The Street Prepared category vehicle listings shall define the model years eligible for update/backdate of a particular vehicle.
iv) The updated/backdated part or the part to which it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance.
v) If modifications are made to any updated/backdated part, they must conform to the modification allowances in Street Prepared category and they will no longer be considered an update/backdate.
vi) The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged. If modifications are made, they must conform to the modification allowances in Street Prepared category.
vii) Where engines are interchangeable between models, the vehicle on which the component is installed must now compete in the same class as the vehicle from which the component was taken.

A few observations:

1 no rule in the update/backdate section prevents the other rules int he authorized mod list from being used.

how is this important. lets look at a fictional car XYZ there are 2 models of this car the Type A with Transmission A and Engine A there is also the Type B model with transmission B and engine B.

now lets say I own a Type A model and want to just install engine B while keeping Transmission A. first I would claim a full drive train swap to engine B and transmission B under the update backdate rules. I would then claim a transmission sustitution under the rule 6.6.H.iii (switching my transmission back to transmission A or any after market transmission I wanted) I would then have to run the car in the same class as the XYZ type B and not the class that the car XYZ type A runs in. (due to claiming the update backdate rule)

iii) The transmission, differential, and transaxle may be modified or substituted, provided that neither the original suspension configuration, nor drive layout is changed. Modifications include any or all mechanical or hydraulic components relating to the transfer, application and distribution of power flow from the input shaft of the transmission up to and including the drive axle(s).

now lets look at this specific car: (all information is taken from Maddog's posts)

car is a 86 Camaro with a 305 as the stock engine. we are also told that the model generation for this car is from 82 to 92 with a 350 being offered in 86 and 87. so since 350 was offered in this car during the model year run it meets the update/backdate requirement. you swap in the 350 and you run int he class the IROC-Z is placed in. of course you then claim the authorized transmission rules above 6.6.H.iii and you can swap in the 6 speed gear box. This is all perfectly legal according to the rules.

the best part? you don't need to spend any stinking points. :p

This is really not that hard gentlemen. the car is a SP car classed int he same category as an IROC-Z (I haven't looked it up)

if a rule does not say it supercedes another rule then it doesn't and both rules must be considered when building a vehicle.

in any case if I was in Maddog's shoes I'd prepare a document outlineing the rules that were used for each of the mods.

This is of course assuming a stock 350 from an IROC was placed in the car. if any work was done to engine after that those points would have to be claimed.

[Pete@Marcor]

exactly.. so how can anyone say tranny is open??

a) no engine swaps.. its free

b) engine swaps.. its pretty specifc that it must be done as a unit

I don't understand. I am just not reading everything, obviously. The reason that I would say that transmissions are fairly free is that, in the AUTH mods:

"6.6.H.iii) The transmission, differential, and transaxle may be modified or substituted, provided that neither the original suspension configuration, nor the drive layout is is changed. Modifications include any or all mechanical or hydraulic components related to the transfer, application and distribution of power flow from the input shaft of the transmission up to and including the drive axle(s)."

This makes a trans swap a 0 point mod in SP.


its in black and white.. that's why I think Joe was asking/illustrating about the 2.2 => 2.5 swap

even if its a direct bolt in.. same block just different bore size

you can't do it.. "standard equipment"

I would like to have someone be able to actually tell the 2 apart. This competitor simply needs to say he bored his block. He may not even know if the block was originally a 305 or a 350. With the bore, it is now a 350. He MAY have bored the OE block, and because of the way the SBC is, he is now calling it a 350 (since that is the displacement)

I have another question. If the competitor changes his block for another 305, still stock internals, does he have to go directly to MOD? I hope that the answer is the same as if he is running a 350, because this is what the competitor has done.

AFTER that, he is allowed to take engine points.

[finboy]

how so many people see different things in the rule book amazes me

the rule book is laid out.. from stock to modified..

you cant' look at one rule eg. 6.6 h iii and use this transmission.. then with same breath justify a different performing engine swap 6.6 I iii and ignore the rest of the paragraph where it says "same body configuration.. and done as a UNIT (NOT interchanged)


Pete.. the point about not being able to prove/see the physical difference between the 305 and the 350 or 2.2 and the 2.5 block is NOT the issue.

the rule book says "standard equipment".. regardless the fact you'll end up with the exact same results, modifying a 2.2 to a 2.5 vs. just installing a 2.5 (getting the same results) has two separate meanings..


if the rulebook committee wants to address this.. so be it.. but until then doing a 2.5 swap from a 2.2 is not authorized for SP

regardless if you agree or disagree with the rule book..

that is what is written

[finboy]

sorry Ray...

these are examples why any questions should be addressed to the solo II director/rep


you get 5 different views on what a rule book says

[Pete@Marcor]

how so many people see different things in the rule book amazes me

the rule book is laid out.. from stock to modified..

you cant' look at one rule eg. 6.6 h iii and use this transmission.. then with same breath justify a different performing engine swap 6.6 I iii and ignore the rest of the paragraph where it says "same body configuration.. and done as a UNIT (NOT interchanged)

I agree. And funny how everyone feels their opinion is the right one. :) First off, where does it say that the engine AND transmission must go together? It states that it If the competitor in SP and changes the transmission, he is not being forced into MOD. It is AUTHORIZED. No-where does it say that the part must be swapped with the original component it was attached to. What would happen if one were to try to clain the authorized mod for an aftermarket transmission? That part would never be included in a "swap".

Secondly, why are we stuck on the fact that this is a swap? Why not classify it as a modification of the OE engine? What if you were to build up an engine for your car, using different pistons? But, for a moment, let's consider that you have a spare, OE engine in your garage that you are going to do a buildup on. Will installing that engine in your car make you MOD? If so, then anytime a competitor has a "non-numbers matching car", or has had to replace his damaged engine with an original one, he will go to MOD.

Pete.. the point about not being able to prove/see the physical difference between the 305 and the 350 or 2.2 and the 2.5 block is NOT the issue.

the rule book says "standard equipment".. regardless the fact you'll end up with the exact same results, modifying a 2.2 to a 2.5 vs. just installing a 2.5 (getting the same results) has two separate meanings..


if the rulebook committee wants to address this.. so be it.. but until then doing a 2.5 swap from a 2.2 is not authorized for SP

regardless if you agree or disagree with the rule book..

that is what is written

Yes, the book says the "standard equipment" block. Does this mean that one HAS to use the block that came with the engine? If so, ANYONE who does repairs is in for a bit of a shock. That would mean that you could not replace an engine, and continue to compete in anything expect for MOD. Let's say that this car had its OE 305 replaced with another 305, but one that had been bored? He would take the 4 points, and be where he is now. OR, he could, for FREE, do a update/backdate to a 350. I would want to re-read the update/backdate section, but he may need to keep all of the engine related bits together, including the induction. So, to get where he is now, he would take induction points. He will need to do that anyways, as he has changed the intake manifold.

And, the 2.2/2.5 interchange is different - are the barrels the same? I don't think so. As such, the competitor would have to limit his more change to one that fits in the OE barrels. Joe has already said he needed to do considerable mods to get where he is. But, this engine requires an over-bore. End of story.

[finboy]

now lets look at this specific car: (all information is taken from Maddog's posts)

car is a 86 Camaro with a 305 as the stock engine. we are also told that the model generation for this car is from 82 to 92 with a 350 being offered in 86 and 87. so since 350 was offered in this car during the model year run it meets the update/backdate requirement. you swap in the 350 and you run int he class the IROC-Z is placed in. of course you then claim the authorized transmission rules above 6.6.H.iii and you can swap in the 6 speed gear box. This is all perfectly legal according to the rules.

the best part? you don't need to spend any stinking points. :p

This is really not that hard gentlemen. the car is a SP car classed int he same category as an IROC-Z (I haven't looked it up)

.

in order to do the update/backdate thing.. he needs to pull the 6 speed and
attach the transmission that was mated to it (4 speed auto?) to remain in SP

you can not go through the rule book
and say a car is legal because of the way you word out your
explanation or formula.. its the end result that matters

-the car is legal because of the motor swap (engine and transmission)
-then once the engine is in the car, claim transmission swap under sp authorized rules
-then after that has been installed..
etc..
etc..

[finboy]

The suspension mods you've done are legal in SP when suspension points are claimed.

The engine is another matter. You need to read section 6.6.I re: update back date. Long story short, you can put in the 350 if it was available in another model of Camaro from the same body generation.

Note that from some retarded reason this rule says that you can only swap transmissions in their entirety, and not components. However immediately above this rule transmissions are a free mod meaning anything goes. So... your 6-speed is free.

You will then need to read the engine/drive-train section and determine if you have enough prep-points to account for the engine modifications.

the freebie regarding the tranny is all good..
if he just mated the 6 speed to the stock 305 engine

BUT..
once he preps the car using backdate/update for the motor
it specifically says it has to be done as a unit .... for that generation/model year

[gatherer]

well again it's a case of agree to disagree :p (if I got a penny for every time I thought of typing in that phrase I'd have a boosted Miata... :p )

anyways I don't think one rule is allowed to override another rule (unless specified in the rule book, for example safety rules override car prep rules for obvious reasons) if you claim the update/backdate rule I agree full conversion is needed. But at the point of claiming that conversion you are moved to the class of the car the updated/backdated drivetrain came from. At this point you can consider the car a "virgin" car in that class and completely allowed to do all authorized mods like any other car from that class.. so 6.6.H.iii is applyable.

yes I realize this means you have only swapped your engine. but it's the same thing as using the update/backdate rule to change the drivetrain then using the 4 points for internal engine modification and having fully built internals... in the case of the transmission the subsistution costs no points, but it is the same.

under your Idea of the update backdate rule. if you switch drivetrains you can't modifiy the engine afterwards...

so I can get a Camaro IROC-Z with the 350 and place the 6 speed on it and do full engine internals to make even more power... but this Camaro can only do the update/backdate to stock IROC-Z specs yet has to run in the same class as the IROC? that doesn't seem logical to me...

[andrew1984]

:eek:



:D

[jduffett]

the freebie regarding the tranny is all good..
if he just mated the 6 speed to the stock 305 engine

BUT..
once he preps the car using backdate/update for the motor
it specifically says it has to be done as a unit .... for that generation/model year
I think you're totally wrong there. Read carefully:

vi) The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged. If modifications are made, they must conform to the modification allowances in Street Prepared category.

It doesn't say "...engines AND transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit". Based on my understanding of the english language, you could validly rewrite this phrase as "...engines OR transmissions OR transaxles..." To put it another way, if I asked you if you wanted to go to WOSCA, PITL, or HADA, would you think I was asking you if you wanted to go to WOSCA AND either PITL or HADA?
It also says "COMPONENT PARTS of these units may not be interchanged." "these units" refers to engines OR transmissions OR transaxles, hence "component parts" refers to things like crankshafts (in the case of engine), gear sets (in the case of a transmission or transaxle), or differentials (in the case of a transaxle). This is not my interpretation of the rulebook; I don't think I'm reading between any lines here. This is my interpretation of the rules of the english language, which I like to think I have a decent grasp of.

[13inches]

2006 SCCA Rulebook:

Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between
different years and models of a vehicle if (a) the item is standard
on the year/model from which it was taken, and (b) the years/
models are listed on the same line of Appendix A (Street Prepared
Classes). The updated/backdated part or the part to which
it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or
otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance.
Standard factory installation methods, locations, and
configurations are allowed. The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit;
component parts of these units may not be interchanged. Cars
not listed in the Street Prepared sections of Appendix A may not
be updated/backdated until approved by the SEB and published
in SportsCar magazine.

[Pete@Marcor]

the freebie regarding the tranny is all good..
if he just mated the 6 speed to the stock 305 engine

BUT..
once he preps the car using backdate/update for the motor
it specifically says it has to be done as a unit .... for that generation/model year

If one were to follow that the ENTIRE drivetrain would need to be swapped in, why not the driveshaft, and the rear axle? It does not say that, so we are ok.

But, IF we are using ONLY the backdate/update rule, then this engine and trans could not go into this car - 6 speeds were never available in an 82-92 car. That is why the competitor must rely on the free trans mod/swap rule. There are no stipulations on that rule. It simply says you can swap it.

The reason that the update/backdate rule exists is so that an SP competitor may build the right car, rather than buy it like he has to in SS or Stock. That concept would not hold any water in this situation. Competitor A has a 1987 IROC with 350 and A/T. HE is allowed to change transmissions to a 6 speed manual. But, competitor B (with a 305 M/T) cannot, because his car started with a 305? Makes no sense.

Also, we still do not know if this particular car has had the original engine bored out to the 350, so the swap rule would not be needed to be considered. Bore on a 305 is 3.736", a 350 is 4.00", a 400 is 4.125". One would need to check the wall thickness, but it might even be possible to bore the OE 305 to 4.185, to get a funny 383 cu in engine.

[finboy]

I think you're totally wrong there. Read carefully:

vi) The updating and/or backdating of engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; component parts of these units may not be interchanged.

I am totally incorrect here!!

vi) the first part of the sentece was stuck in my head. (reading all must be done as a unit)

the second part of that sentence where it says.. "..these units may not be...."

that illustrates they're breaking down engine, transmissions etc.. as individual units

next round on me

[Guillermo]

Ray,
A novice should not expect to show up to an autoslalom or solosprint event and expect to be competitive the first year no matter what car they drive.

The focus of your first year should be
1) have fun
2) driver training

Money is much better spend on driver training and tires instead of other mods during your first year of competition. Drive what you have in whatever class it falls and have fun :)

[finboy]

Ray,
A novice should not expect to show up to an autoslalom or solosprint event and expect to be competitive the first year no matter what car they drive.

The focus of your first year should be
1) have fun
2) driver training

Money is much better spend on driver training and tires instead of other mods during your first year of competition. Drive what you have in whatever class it falls and have fun :)


totally agree on this..

but for fun... club events..

competitve.. should be regional

nothing says a novice can't reach for the stars in the first year

[Maddog]

Ray,
A novice should not expect to show up to an autoslalom or solosprint event and expect to be competitive the first year no matter what car they drive.

The focus of your first year should be
1) have fun
2) driver training

Money is much better spend on driver training and tires instead of other mods during your first year of competition. Drive what you have in whatever class it falls and have fun :)
Good point, but I still need a classification. :D

[Doug Phillips]

The motor swap moves you directly to ESP. Now you will have to wait for the 2006 rulebook and start adding up your points. SP has a 15 point maximum.

While you are waiting you could start by going thought the 2005 rulebook as any changes should not have a drastic change to your points.

To run the regionals you will also need to be a member of a club. If you are looking for discounts from GM the TFbM (www.tfbm.org) may be the way to go.

[Pete@Marcor]

The motor swap moves you directly to ESP. Now you will have to wait for the 2006 rulebook and start adding up your points. SP has a 15 point maximum.

While you are waiting you could start by going thought the 2005 rulebook as any changes should not have a drastic change to your points.

To run the regionals you will also need to be a member of a club. If you are looking for discounts from GM the TFbM (www.tfbm.org) may be the way to go.

Engine swap? :D

[nitrowsb]

Ray,
A novice should not expect to show up to an autoslalom or solosprint event and expect to be competitive the first year no matter what car they drive.

The focus of your first year should be
1) have fun
2) driver training

Money is much better spend on driver training and tires instead of other mods during your first year of competition. Drive what you have in whatever class it falls and have fun :)


Yes have fun...yes take driver training, but yes I think you can be competative first year out and it depends on the car you drive and R compound tires...IMO.

[Gen1GT]

I sent a PM to Tanner for clarification, but what it looks like is I would be placed in the Modified class, and this will make me non-competitive. I think the rules are more geared towards small cars.

For example; that 6-spd was not available in that generation, but what's the advantage with regards to Solo2? The gear ratios from the 5-spd and 6-spd are almost identical from 1st to 4th which I'd probably only use 1st & 2nd anyhow. Also, from what I understand is 350+ HP is NOT going to help me in autocrossing unless I have the appropriate suspension to put that power to the ground.

Bottomline, I'm getting punished for having a big motor. If I had the stock engine I'd be in SS class instead of modified.

I guess I'll have to stick to Solo 1 of just do Solo 2 for the fun of it and not expect to be competitive.

The rules are geared toward forced induction, not small cars. I am a drag racer trying to make my drag car competitive in SoloII, and it seems to be a dichotomy. To do my engine build the way I want(naturally aspirated), with IRTB's and a built bottom end, I use up a whopping 8 points, on top of the many points I've inadvertently added by weight reduction.

And to shut everyone up before they comment, I realize that 15.4 isn't that fast, but I'm only 1/4 into the build. :p

[Doug Phillips]

Engine swap? :D


V8? I thought it was a four cylinder. :)

[tanney]

Since Ray did not give me an e-mail address to respond to and the PM test limit is 1000 characters, I am responding to his pm request here;

Original Request for Clairification

Hi Wes, I was informed I should speak to you regarding my classification;

->1986 Camaro Z28
->Original Engine: 305 V8, now 350.
The engine has aftermarket heads, cam, intake.
350s were available in that generation car as either TBI or TPI
induction. Mine is carburated(as was the original 305). 305 & 350
engines have the same stroke. My 350 has also been bored out .03". I
also have headers that were not OEM.
->Original Tranny: 5-spd T5, now 6-spd T56
->Suspension: OEM torque arm and rear lower control arms replaced with
aftermarket units. Rear lower control arm connection points have been
lowered on the rear diff. Everything else is stock
->Rear diff: Stock 10-bolt GM unit
->Body/Chassis: All stock except subframe connectors have been installed.
->Wheel: 16" factory IROC aluminum wheels
->Tires: BFG street tires

If you can disect this and let me know where I fit, I'd be great
appreciative.

Ray




My initial thoughts on receiving the clarification request (not knowing a lot about gm products) and based on the information provided;

ESP using 9 points
+3 pts Suspension
+2 pts Headers
+4 pts Engine mods
-1 pt Fire Extinguisher (to be offset against some weight reduction)
350 swap falls under the update/backdate rule
The 6 speed transmission is free as specified in the rule book ASSUMING that the ONLY modifications were internal (if the transmission housing is not a OE piece, then it is not allowed in SP)



Further (quoted) comments from CAC TAC;

The 350 is legal using the update/backdate rule and any transmission may be used. He must accure points for induction unless equipped with the GM TPI. These would be in addition to his engine mod points.

A couple of things to note. The 350 must be a one piece rear main seal, right hand dipstick, roller cam block. These are definitely not as strong as earlier blocks. Also, remember that illegal modifications to the car are not allowed to make legal changes fit. Example, can he install the T56 without cutting the floor pan? Shifter location is not the same.

Addition (quoted) comments from CAC TAC;

As far as the update/backdate goes, you do have to make the engine, trans, and suspension match a single model year but in addition to that, in SP you are allowed to make further mods to engines, transmissions, rear ends, and suspensions either as allowable items or via prep. points. So as long as you are willing to comply w/ the other SP allowance or applicable prep points, you do not have to make the entire powertrain, intake/exhaust etc. match a single model year. Therefore the vehicle in question is a legal ESP car.

Conclusion

In conclusion, assuming that ALL information concerning the vehicle in question was supplied with the initial request for clarification, the car is an ESP vehicle with 9 points used. If ALL information was not provided with this request for clarification, additional points may be incurred and if the rule book is not followed, the car MAY yet end up in Mod.

[tanney]

Also for the record, I did not read all of the responses under this thread, the desicion was based on information provided via the pm function of this message forum as provided by the person inquiring.

[Maddog]

Thanks Wes.

Yes, the engine is a 1991 block, 1 piece rear main seal. No cutting of the existing floor pan was required for the T56 tranny.

I thought that SP only had 8 points allowed. Because I'm using 9, what does that mean?

[Doug Phillips]

Thanks Wes.

Yes, the engine is a 1991 block, 1 piece rear main seal. No cutting of the existing floor pan was required for the T56 tranny.

I thought that SP only had 8 points allowed. Because I'm using 9, what does that mean?

What am I missing here?

Section 6.6 C says maximum of 15 points for SP.

[Tony Kloosterma]

ss is 6 points, and sp is 15 points

you can only use the -1 point for the fire extinguisher against a weight reducing item, ie a seat or a lightened body panel

I would suggest you do a few events first before you get at all concerned about how well you will do in any class. Seat time is paramount. It will take at least a year to really understand your car and know how to make it handle/and how you drive it, to produce good times.

E/SP is a tough class but the pony cars can do well on the right lots/courses

Tony

[Tashko]

Woohoo! One more in E/SP...anyone else? :D

[Marsh]

350 swap falls under the update/backdate rule
The 6 speed transmission is free as specified in the rule book ASSUMING that the ONLY modifications were internal (if the transmission housing is not a OE piece, then it is not allowed in SP)


OK, it's not clear if Wes wrote this, or if it's a quote.

I don't read the rule book as saying that the case can't be changed. The rule says that transmission may be modified. This means EVERYTHING about the transmission. The rule then goes on to state what items are inlcuded, besides the transmission, but does not state what items are excluded. I would say this rule allows for the use of ANY transmission on gods green earth to be mated to any SP car.

[Coedmusic]

Hey Tash,
I'll be back,,,
See you in the spring ;)
Eddie