Shoot Out rules clarification

[Marsh]

Mike Kunderman asked me this in Peterborough (at the end of the day when Rob was gone). "Will convertables require roll bars for the shoot-out?" We are using Solo-2 rules, so I would think not, but we are doing a lap of the upper DDT, so I wasn't sure.

[tanney]

We are running Solo 2 rules, with some minor course design changes (to suit the venue) and NO STREET TIRE BONUS!

Otherwise, please refer to the Solo 2 rule book.

[soloZ]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah no street tire bonus hehehehehehehehehehehehehehahahahahahahahahahahaha


umm sorry :)

[ice/solo racer]

Hate to break it too you Ryan but I just received my hoosier 225-45s,just kidding I checked the race tire budget and remembered I'm broke.I really don't understand the decision to have no bonus?I was told that it was because solo 1 guys don't get the bonus,so why would it affect them wouldn't they all run r- compounds anyway?.I think they'd just hate getting beat on streets!!.
It will really affect me as my car seems to like the driftability of the street tires!the khumo's took that away and made the car push.

[Marsh]

Originally posted by ice/solo racer
Hate to break it too you Ryan but I just received my hoosier 225-45s,just kidding I checked the race tire budget and remembered I'm broke.I really don't understand the decision to have no bonus?I was told that it was because solo 1 guys don't get the bonus,so why would it affect them wouldn't they all run r- compounds anyway?.I think they'd just hate getting beat on streets!!.
It will really affect me as my car seems to like the driftability of the street tires!the khumo's took that away and made the car push.

The street tire bonus was created as something to make the regional tour more appealing to rookies. It was not the intention to add another twist to the results math so that everyone could go looking for some kind of super street tire that would be more advantages (Azena). Since the Shoot-Out is an invitational and there will be few rookies there, the bonus doesn't really have a point. Plus it's not used by the Solo-1 guys, and CASC-OR is trying to make the Shoot-Out more inviting to the Solo-1 guys.

Did I get that about right?

[tanney]

Did I get that about right?

Yes, you did!

[ADAM]

since this is a solo 2 rules event....

who is going to take the time oct 12 to classify all the solo 1 cars? we have no clue where our cars are classed...

also..you guys do standing starts right?

do you heat your tires up first? since its a drag launch?

[tanney]

Adam, there will be people there to do classication of all the Solo 1 competitors. The rule book can be found at http://www.solontario.com/solo2 then under Solo 2 Info, follow the Solo 2 Rules button and the rule book and the bulletin as well.

Yes Solo 2 is a standing start and NO, you are NOT allowed to heat up tires. Anybody who gets caught doing burnouts or are out on the county roads heating up tires or brakes will be further excluded from the event, in other word, kicked out!

Part of the skill in Solo 2 or autocross is adaptation. You start the run on cold tires and the tires are just coming in when the run is over. Also the course is slippery during the first runs and by the end of the day there will be a lot more grip.

Also since there is a lot on the line here, cheaters will be seriously frowned upon. No if you're caught cheating, you MAY be banned from participating in Solo in the future. If you have a non stock part on your car, claim it. Solo 2 has NO update/backdate rule, so the classification of some of the Solo 1 cars will be interesting, to say the least!

[tanney]

Sorry, Adam, most of that previous post was not directed at you or incinuating(sp) that you, or anybody else, are going to cheat.

I just want to make sure that people are aware of some of these things and the repercussions of not following the rules.

[rainman]

So undeclared raised compression, knife-edged crankshaft, port/polish, etc. is illegal? You could get banned for it? Damn it all to hell!!!!

;)

[tanney]

Yep, did I metion that we will be rippin all the Solo 1 guys cars apart before the event to check for this stuff? Just kidding, maybe!

[ADAM]

he he he...

ok...so no tire heating up :)

we are allowed to rev the engine up and drop the clutch ...right?

or is tire spinning not allowed?

turbo cars need to spool up or they just bog down out of the hole..

ok..will look over the solo 2 rule book..and try to figure it out...

[soloZ]

Hey you guys having a slow day aswell? I think I will hold off putting the coil overs on my car. Although I am interested in see if there is an improvement but I will be using my stock struts :(. Oh well I guess they have to wait after the shoot out.

[ADAM]

ok..so i looked at the rules....

looks like i am a A/3 car... in ASP?

for points...

1=antisway bars
2=ripped out carpets
1=non stck alignment
3=springs
1=intercooler
2=boost
3=supercharger(turbo)
1=fuel injection upgrade
1=battery moved
-2= roll cage
-1=fire extingusher
=12points

is this correct?

[tanney]

No, you can rev it up and launch at 180000 rpm, if you want, just do it in the start box at the beginning of your run. It is frowned upon doing it in the middle of your run, if you come to a halt on course.

Even my 95hp Civic DX gets good tire spin coming out of the start box.

Also, all you Solo 1 guys....once you have left the start box....NO REVERSE. If you put your car in reverse (to pick up a missed gate, for example), DNF, you just blew you're run.

[ADAM]

so looking at the rules....

the Z06's stock..are in a lower class than me?

bring em on

this should be really neat..its fun having things changed up

whats this "gate " business

[ADAM]

i saw nitrous....in the rules?

you guys allow nitrous?

hmmmmm

i do have a 10lb tank full and ready to go :)


question..why does solo 2 allow NOS and not solo 1 ?

i was given the reason the insurance of solo 1 would not cover it....hmmmmm

interesting

[ADAM]

i know you were directing it towards the honda weasels :)

this event is just for fun anyway right..kind of the last event of the year bash...what ever class i get put in i really don't mind


Originally posted by tanney
Sorry, Adam, most of that previous post was not directed at you or incinuating(sp) that you, or anybody else, are going to cheat.

I just want to make sure that people are aware of some of these things and the repercussions of not following the rules.

[blur]

>1=antisway bars
>2=ripped out carpets
>1=non stck alignment
>3=springs
>1=intercooler
>2=boost
>3=supercharger(turbo)
>1=fuel injection upgrade
>1=battery moved
>-2= roll cage
>-1=fire extingusher
>=12points

>is this correct?


There's actually a 4 point maximum for suspension goodies, but it doesn't matter in this case.

[soloZ]

Is it legal to remove the rear seat and seat back? The seat and back isn't really heavy but It is still extra weight.

[tanney]

Ryan, Section 5.10.12 General Modification - Stock Category

The rear seat cushion and rear seat back may be removed.

[Nissan Racer]

Sounds like Ryan's trying to get down to CRX weight :)

[Marsh]

Originally posted by soloZ
Is it legal to remove the rear seat and seat back? The seat and back isn't really heavy but It is still extra weight.

You don't already do this? I took mine out the day they made the amendment. Makes carrying tires sooo much easier.

[ice/solo racer]

Took mine out out too,replaced it with a fuel cell!!.Of course backing up with a solid fire wall behind my head kinda sucks though(corolla side mirrors are really small).

[Taylor]

Originally posted by tanney
The rear seat cushion and rear seat back may be removed.
Hang on, Hang On.. you can remove the ENTIRE rear seats but I couldn't remove one of my fronts? WTF?

I hope we see some more SCCA like rules. The Canadian nationals you have 2 points in stock. However there are only about 3 things you can do and still be in stock. 1 is R-Compounds, the other is removal of your front seat. Most everything else starts at 3 points.

For a convertible, the removal of the front seat is a huge cost advantage. This way I don't HAVE to drive to the event on my R Compounds and don't need a trailer to transport them. I save on tire wear and setup (adding removing the trailer hitch), and not having to buy a tailer or hitch, which would be custom for my car.

I can guarantee you the 25/30 lb seat I removed on my 50/50/50/50 weight distribution car was NOT an advantage. Hell you can take the spare tire out, but not the seat. I gotta say, this doesn't make a hell of alot of sense. A rear Seat/Spare and Front Seat all weigh roughly the same amount (25-35lb range), why is it that I can't remove the front seat? Especially in a 2 seater where I don't have the ability to remove a rear seat?!

(and yes I was fully aware of the rules when I did remove my seat a few weeks ago, but I didn't for a second think you could remove the entire back seat)

Seriously, can we level the playing field a little here for us 2 seater/roadster types?

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Taylor

Seriously, can we level the playing field a little here for us 2 seater/roadster types?

Level it against who? All the cars your competing with are in the same boat. The only A family car I can think of with a back seat is the 3-series BMW, and the only driver with one in CASC-OR solo-2 leaves his back seat in.

[Taylor]

My question has nothing to do with WINNING anything. In fact is really has squat to do with competition at all. I'd just like to be able to have the same courtesy that 4 seater cars are extended with the removal of about 25-35 pounds of weight from it for a PRACTICAL use.

I'd like to be able to remove my front seat so I can transport my tires. So I don't have to spend about $600-$1000 for a tow harness and trailer. So I don't have to drive on my R's 200km/s to some events and put more wear on them. So I don't have to worry about whether it will rain or not.

If stock is stock then why allow removal of the spare tire?

If stock is stock then why allow removal of the back seat?

Since you can do those things, why can't I remove my front seat? Because it may weigh 5-10lbs more than the back seat?

I have a RWD car, if I want more grip I'd want weight in the rear, low and to the rear. I don't get that by removing the spare tire, back seat or front seat. I just don't see the big deal, if those other things are allowed, why not allow this.

As for the spare, I could see it as a safety concern, though some people have full size spares (i.e. M3's). But there's no practical or logical reason to allow the removal of the back seats... unless it's for transporting tires. Which I too would like to be able to do.

If there is actually a good argument against it, then fine, I'm sure if it's good, I'll agree. But I do not know what that argument could be. Perhaps this situation has been overlooked.

[Taylor]

I was just reminded of the Solo workshop the day of or prior to the banquet.

Guess that's the place to bring this up. Just wanted some opinions feedback so I cover the bases if I'm to present a case for it.

This is by no means a shot against any single or group of people involved with the regional Solo 2 series. This is just another one of those "Que?" things in the rule books, and this one just happens to pertain to me. And it a somewhat sensitive subject considering the hit I took for doing something that's similarly allowed but not possible in the car I drive.

And the issue is brought to the front again with the uncertainy of this weekends weather and with the condition of my R's. As a result I'm going to have to transport my wheels in another vehicle. Which takes another car, another person and money for Gas.

Stock should be a cost attractive way to compete in amateur motorsports. If we didn't allow R's then perhaps I could understand a strict stock classification. But we do, which raises the bar on expenses if you want to be competitive. Raising it again where you need a trailer, hitch (and the most difficult thing for me, a place to put the trailer) is making it just that more expensive for folks with cars like mine (both mine, 2 seaters) to be competitive.

[Marsh]

Ok good. My concern wasn't what you were asking for, but when you were asking for it. This is a problem that 2 seat guys have had for years and had do deal with as best they could. It was a problem even before rear seats were allowed to come out. So I was reading this as "I don't care what has or hasn't been the norm, now that it's MY problem, I want the bend the rules".

I see it this way. Other guys have been driving on their R's all season, or have purchased trailers and hitches. What makes you different? You have an excellent point that should be brought up at the rules meeting. I agree that for next year this is a perfectly fair concession. Either 2 seaters can remove their seat, or 4 seaters can't, but the same courtesy should be extended to everyone. But now isn't the time to make any changes.

[Taylor]

Why am I not surprised someone would ask that.

**** *why* I'm different. How about just the facts as they stand. I suppose it would be something if it was brought up over and over again and there is a good reason for NOT allowing it.

Marshall, stop trying to be the goddamned rules police. Drives me nuts. Anyone who carts their rule book around should be slapped upside the head with it.

Some people act like there's prize money at the end of the season.

I'm not pissed about the decision against me because it cost me my class win, I'm pissed about it because I didn't think the people it involved would actually care enough to make it an issue. I was annoyed that people it didn't directly involved decided it was an issue. I was pissed because once it was decided on, it was recinded and revoked. It gave me a huge headache, it was not a plesant experience. I don't care about the standings. If I did, I wouldn't have missed any events. I'd have ensured my win.

BTW, just because the guys with the $80,000 Z06's can afford to put a trailer hitch and trailer on, or to buy 2 or 3 sets of hoosiers every year, doesn't mean my cheapest car in the class can. And even if I could, why should I HAVE TO? I try to get by on one set of R's each year, and if I didn't have to drive on them to events I could.

I keep coming back to this about Solo. It should be easy and fun. When it feels like a job, I'm not having any fun. To analyze the rule book in the spirit of "fun" is ridiculous. This is why I prefer PITL and BAC/Corvette events because their class systems are a joke in comparison. No one in their right mind could get upset for loosing based on the rules/classifications there. the classes are by-nature not fair, so it comes down to straight up fun. Solo should also be as cheap as possible for those that want it to be.

If I have a miata and want to be competitive in amateur motorsports, I'll have to buy a trailer and hitch or I'll have to mod my car up so it's competitive in the class I'd move to just for removing the seat. Points for R's would rectify the whole situation.. though I'd still rather burn out my R compounds than my street tires so perhaps it doesn't solve everything.

I found a problem, just like the one with the E46 and E36 M3's, and as I just said, this one just happens to pertain to me. I left the E46/36 one out there for whomever cares to deal with. This one I care about so I'm going to deal with it. Hence the messages...

BTW, I drive on my R's to events, ALL THE TIME. I didn't that particular time because there was a call for rain (60% the day before, 40% that morning, 100% humidity when I walked outside at about 6am) and since I run on Victoracers the tread was gone long ago. Highway speeds on near slicks is RETARDED. I did it last year trying to cheat the rain and every time I had to brake or I went through a larger puddle the car would scare the hell out of me. I elected to err on the side of caution, to be safe and drive on my streets. I tried to get a fellow competitor to take them but he didn't have room. I had a backup car and person who was going to drive them out there for me but that car didnt' get the radiator replacement it was supposed to get on Saturday.
Things didn't fall into place for me. *shrug* I accept the decision. But to see a very similar allowance which I can't take advantage of brings to light a problem with the rule book or the lack of consideration for people in my position (i.e. 2 seater stock cars).

"Now isn't the time to make any changes?"

Don't you worry Marshall. The Integra is fixed. My R's will be in the back seat there. I'm not looking for a rules change for me for Saturday. Stop trying to read into things...

I suspect you naturally expect people to cheat. I have no interest in cheating. I'll leave that up to the peple who are desperate enough to sell themselves and their fellow competitors out just to win a title. No thank you. I do this for fun... which BTW, this conversation isn't.

My bad.

[Taylor]

Hmm I think the server clock is off.. says 11:03 and it's only 9:15...

[Nissan Racer]

See the bar that says "All times are GMT" :)

[Taylor]

oh.. yeah.. "duuuuh."

[Marsh]

Originally posted by Taylor

Marshall, stop trying to be the goddamned rules police. Drives me nuts. Anyone who carts their rule book around should be slapped upside the head with it.


Funny I always want to slap people that don't take my sport seriously and treat Solo-2 people like 2nd class citizens. "Kids playing a little game in the parking lot. Rules? Who cares! It's not Solo-1 so it doesn't matter."

[Chris P]

Originally posted by Taylor

I keep coming back to this about Solo. It should be easy and fun. When it feels like a job, I'm not having any fun. To analyze the rule book in the spirit of "fun" is ridiculous. This is why I prefer PITL and BAC/Corvette events because their class systems are a joke in comparison. No one in their right mind could get upset for loosing based on the rules/classifications there. the classes are by-nature not fair, so it comes down to straight up fun. Solo should also be as cheap as possible for those that want it to be.


Taylor, for myself and others, analyzing is part of the fun and challange of this sport. Unlike under the SCCA GRC we have flexiblity in car choice per class and flexibility in modifications. In the US if you want to be nationally compeditive you must have the "right" car with the "right" mods and the mods are pretty much laid out for you. In ontario our rules are a little more open in the modification department. Rules are to be intrepreted, if you do a better job analyzing the rules then your compitition then good for you, not only earned on the track but also with rules. Going through that little book can pay off and its important that people do it if they want to be compeditive. If your not willing to see this apect of the challange of racing then you are here for another motive besides winning. As you know the reason i have strayed from running PITTL and C4 events is the exact reason you like them, a lack of rules and outlines. as you say, they are unfair-by-nature, why would i contribute my time and money into something that is unfair? With limited resources it is much better to focus one's efforts on a single goal.


However, on this issue it is rediculus that a 4-seater has the option to pull rear seats so to accomindate tires and other racing supply's while a 2-seaters does not get the same benifits, espicially when 2-seaters are the only cars that need a rule like this to begin with. But maybe there is reason behind it, my car is a 2 seater, should i be aloud to take out my passenger seat. Ofcourse not. However, most convertibles have very limited storage space and the rule does make sense. This issue will not be decided on a forum and nor should it be. However topics like this need to become more common so that people are exposed to the rules and a common consenses can be made about them so they meeting the current need of the solo population. What i suggust you do is hold a pole on this forum. When the general rules meeting is is session you bring up this issue and use the poll as amunition to get this proposed rule changed passed.

PS, if we switch to SCCA rules this could all be a moot point since they do not allow any seats to be removed in all stock classes.


The rules meeting should be very interesting...........

PS, for the most part i enjoy reading US racing forums because people are rule nerds and they are serious enough about that rules are necessary. However nit picking is a differnent issue.

[Taylor]

Marshall: Que? Where' does this Solo 1 crap come from? If this is some sort of implication that Solo 1 is my only focus and as a result I care not for the structure or competitors of Solo 2 I think you're way out in left field.

Last year I did 13 of 14 Solo 1 events. This year I did 4. This year I've done something approaching 20 AutoX events. I co-organized an AutoX series this year along with 2 special events. I can assure you my main interest lie in Solo 2.

Chris/Marshall: I think what we have here is a guy that does this just to have fun, well primarily to have fun. We also have a couple guys (or more from my experience) who's primary focus in Solo 2 is to win. I can't quite wrap my head around your purpose and it's obvious with Chris' statements that he can't quite understand my purpose.

As for the rule, which should really be the focus here. If we adopted SCCA rules, then there wouldn't be any sort of crap with Stock cars being allowed $1000 R-Compounds and $1000 Wheels. There wouldn't be a somewhat inequitable rule which some cars are not able to take advantage of.

Personally I do not really want to get rid of those rules. Because I have the tires, I have the wheels. Course if we did, things may be just that much more attractive for newcomers. Course we could just end up with sparse class problems as we have had in Solo the past couple years. What I want is want one of them to be fair or considerate of people in my situation. And I don't think I'll have a problem there... but I made a mistake with that assumption already, so who knows.

I suppose part of the problem with our current classification system is that there are holes, and when holes are exploited, people get pissed. It's almost like the classification system is just fair enough to be bad for a choice few. Where as the SCCA one is more tried and true. The PITL and C4 ones are not even close to fair so how can you get upset over them? You can't, you just show up and drive.

I guess I need the ability to put on a different kind of hat at a regional event. Sometimes feels like a Knife to a Gun fight sort of deal. But hey.. successful series this year. Great job by the Solo organizers and the clubs.

[Chris P]

"If we adopted SCCA rules, then there wouldn't be any sort of crap with Stock cars being allowed $1000 R-Compounds and $1000 Wheels"

All stock SCCA classes run R-compounds. I believe the only street tire class is STS and STX and cars must use the OE rims give or take 1/4 varience in rim offset.

"I can't quite wrap my head around your purpose and it's obvious with Chris' statements that he can't quite understand my purpose."
I tought my purpose was very clear. Anyway, i do understand your angle on this sport and i realize that 90% of solo 2 compeditors feel the same way. Currently in ontario thats the way it is becuase of the recent influx of new compiditors we've seen. As a rule, new compiditors are out to have fun driving their cars and more or less use results to gauge them selves. Once you've been in this sport for over 10 years your've proceptive shifts a little. I think i shall ran only SCCA events, but then agian, my broke ass won't allow that.................

[roooo]

I"m a bit late to the discussion but here's my .02...

It sounds like Taylor shouldn't ever think about attending an SCCA National event where you are required to have a copy of your car's service manual on hand to prove the legality of any modifications questioned under scrutineering or protested by a competitor. :)

From what I gather, requiring removal of spare tires, etc is done in the interests of safety just in case there are things not properly secured. The back seats of most cars don't weigh more than maybe six pounds .. it's all fabric, foam, and wire. Front seats are much heavier .. not that I think it makes any sense to be allowed to remove back seats in stock class (you can't in SCCA)...

Are there more details about the SOLO workshop? Is it open to anyone to attend? I would like to see a more unified class system over the country to bring grassroots motorsports together .. but maybe that goes beyond the scope of SoloOntario?

[Dave]

The Solo Workshop will be held at the CASC-OR offices (near York University), likely starting at 11am and going to about 2pm.

The agenda will include the following items:
1. Presentation of the Solo 1 Competitor Survey results
2. Car Classification discussion
3. General Rules and Regs discussion

Rowan, although I agree that having a national rulebook for Solo sports would be great, it is certainly beyond the scope of this workshop.

As far as adopting the SCCA rulebook in Ontario, I don't see it ever happening. We don't have the population/competitor base to make it work. We'd end up with far too many classes and too few competitors to fill them (just like we have in Solo 1 already and we've got less classes than the SCCA does). Solo 2 had 76 regional competitors in total this year, compared to most any SCCA region with several hundred registered competitors. The US Solo 2 Nationals had nearly 1200 cars! They have a population based 10x that of ours and their rulebook is designed to work with this level of population.

[ice/solo racer]

I think that saying we only had 76 registered regional people is very misleading!.That figure only represents the amount of people that paid to register.
The fact is that at any event ANY competiter running can take points away from those that are registered.After running all but one event this season I can say in effect that there were probably closer to several hundred different people that took part/played a part in this series!.
For the record I like the flexability that the current rules allow,this way we can pick and chose mods that work with your vehicle of choice.And I don't think adopting the scca's rules would promote newcomers,I don't like jumping into SP for minor changes where only purpose built cars could be competitive.
If the rules change to try and get the newer cars starting out in SS down into a stock class does that mean the cars allready classed would move down and/or be allowed more prep points to stay competitive within their family?.Like for example a b3 car would than move to a newly created b4 class and be allowed an additional 2 prep points in BSS?.