2 Modest proposals

[Dave Barker]

I will not be able to attend the workshop on Nov 2 due to some work commitments so decided to present this ahead of time . If anyone is interested , maybe they could attend the workshop to bring this up .

Solo 1 classification ; 2 modest proposals


The following is a wish list of changes that I think can be implemented for next years Solo 1 season re car classifications . I believe these changes are achievable within the given family system and yet will address many of the concerns of competitors voiced in the Solo1 survey.
There are a few basic premises that I have made after seeing the results of the survey .
1. We have too many classes
2. The performance index spread within certain classes is too high
3. Certain cars with a high performance index are damaging competition with in their families due to the progression into SS1 classes or propositioning the SS1 classes consistently
4. C family functions fairly well as is

My first proposal is to scrap the B family . For the past 2 years B family has had the fewest number of drivers and is made up of a mix of front , rear and all wheel drive cars where A family is exclusively rear wheel drive and C family is almost exclusively front wheel drive . I would suggest putting all rear wheel and all wheel drive cars in A family and all front wheel drive cars in C family. This would likely require the formation of an A 4 class as well as an ASS3 class to prevent even larger PI spreads. I am not sure that any of the front drive cars in B presently would have a lower performance index than any of the C 3 class which means there should be no new C classes.


My second proposal is that all high index cars ( possible those over 80) such as the Z06 , Viper and 996 turbo Porsche only be allowed to run in ASP or A Mod ( after all , a Z06 is already significantly modified from a regular C 5 vette, much like the Players challenge Camaros that have to take points for their modifications although available from the factory) It might be reasonable to allow them 2-3 points and still stay in ASP but even in A 1 they are often beating A mod times and certainly the significantly modified Z06s that ran this year were running A mod times . If these “ high index” cars were only pushed up to ASS1 they would still discourage any more modifications to an ASS2 car and would mean all other A 1 cars would likely only run stock . The other advantage of only allowing these cars in ASP is that then A 1 could be repopulated with cars that could not run there and had to be moved down last year . Although 2 years ago A 1 had a number of fast cars in it , a number have been reclassified down to A 2 as they cannot run with the “ super cars “ . A 1 would also be a good class for the E 46 BMW M 3 after being moved from B class. The net effect of having “ super cars “ out of the stock categories is that all 4 of the new A classes could each have a smaller performance index spread than is there presently.


The net effects of these 2 proposals is that there are 4 fewer classes , The Z06 and E46 cars can no longer terrorize their present families from a stock class meaning that the SS1 class becomes more viable , both A and C families get more population and hopefully the PI spread in the A family will be less. Most of the basic advantages of the Family system including ease of new car classification are still effective . The actual calculation of PI could be kept the same for A and C families but likely car weight has to be added as a factor in the handling calculation as previously car weight was a deciding factor as to which family a car was in . I believe that these changes are not big and can be done in time for next year if agreed upon . There were car reclassifications made this past year that I was not made aware of until the rule book came out in January and the previous year I was not made aware of the whole family system idea until the November workshop .

For your consideration Dave Barker

The lines are open

[Shaman]

As much as I hate to say it - and I do - something has to be done with placing the Z06s. They're computer assisted racing cars. There's never been a faster Solo 1 car off an everyday production line. I don't mind them in ASP, but they do raise the question of "just when does the whole A classification need to change" when there's now the Viper GTS, the Z06 and others like them being classed in with cars far heavier and less sophisticated. To hear the talk, we're also going to have TVRs some day soon again...

I am not in favour of changes for these cars in some ways, but I think it's inevitable. Little "white lie" mods are all these cars need to be at the top of the pile and competing with cars two classes higher than they're presently classed. When do we play the "supercar" card? After all, RX7, Supra, Porsche and other turbo sports/gt cars avoid Solo 1 like the plague because with induction/exhaust/fuel mods they're Z06 fast... and they have to play in Mod with firesuits and rollcages... need I say more?

[Chris P]

Dave Barker’s proposal is inline with any short-term classification issues that SOLO 1 could solve without making a drastic change. This proposal can be implemented and still allow more then sufficient time for competitors to prepare their cars for the 2003 SOLO 1 season.
From a first glance this may seem like a drastic change however with further review it is evident that this change is just part of the evolution of our rules and will solve many problems. Moving 80+ percentile super cars to a non-stock class is concerning, I say this because the original intention of the rules was to not have any stock car in a non stock class, which has been a problem with previous systems. However, these super cars are anything but stock cars, they are prepared from the factory for racing and should be treated as such. The ZO6 vette has already proven that it can run with other cars currently in ASP that were prepared from a lower stock class. However, we must still determine if these super cars are better suited for ASS1 or ASP. I don’t believe that we can just put these super cars in ASP because they currently run ASP times or faster, has the potential of ASP really been achieved, can the Z06’s get faster with more seat and development time? However this kink can be solved once the proposal receives some kind of approval that it can be implemented next season.
Another concern is the performance potential of various cars if they are moved into A family. IE, the miata, I don’t buy this argument, in the Miata’s case Grass Roots Motor sports did a feature on a 1st gen Miata with something like 350hp and 370ft-lbs with a turbo setup. The car was perfectly reliable and completed in the OCC without any mechanical problems. Could a car like this run competitively with stock ZO6 vettes in ASP………yes. At the end of the day in a class as open as ASP it’s really about choosing your modifications correctly, if you don’t do it right then your car will suffer.
With Adding an A4 and ASS3 to the equation, A family’s modified classes with be more open and allow people to have more choice in the amount of modification and class their car competes in. And these classes will be needed with the elimination of the B family.




C family has worked out quite well & no major tweaking needs to be done here. However if we wanted to realm into C class here is a proposal. The stock Integra Type R is no faster then the CSS2 cars and thus it doesn’t make sense to place it in CSS1. If anything at all you could move top C1 cars to CSS2 and then move more C2 cars to C1, thus allowing C1, C2, C3 to have a smaller index spread which would results in classes being more equal. However this may be pushing things a little.




I would like to thank you for your time and consideration of this proposal. With this first letter my goal is to receive some kind of signal that a change of this sort is possible for 2003. I would like to encourage the SOLO 1 massive to imput there thoughts on the prosal and consider its implications. Please let your voice be known!

http://www.redpepperracing.com/gallery/albums/Krispy/adu.jpg

[Rob McAuley]

I'll be at the meeting, and am anxious to hear from the Classification Committee that they will take this into consideration.

I have no objections to having stock cars run in modified classes, especially given the way 'stock' cars are prepared by the factory.

If they run similar times, they should be in similar classes.

I hope the Classification Committee could come with some suggestions as to the PI breakpoints for the classes, and a first cut at which cars will fall into each category!

[Chris P]

If you feel that you have nothing to contribute to the discussion but are in aggrement with what has been said could you please indicate this by posting the word "SIGNED". Thanks

[Andrew]

signed

[MikeS]

SIGNED.

Definately a good proposal, factory race cars sure do not belong in stock categories. Eliminating B family is a great idea as well, the more we simplify, the better. This is going to take some working through, but I think will definately make a difference.

Great ideas guys!

Mike Schwartze

[B18C5]

Hrm. I've been thinking about this a little and I don't completely disagree with most of this. Especially the part about dropping the B family to fill out the A classes. Although I do remember Chris S posted an analysis of what would happen if B was dropped and it didn't look all that promising. Maybe things have changed now that the year is over. The cool thing about dropping B is there are then 2 divisions. Almost like cool pro serieses (serii?), where there's like a touring class and a pro class. A two family system is much easier to explain. We have fast super car type things, and we have slower regular car type things. Simple and cool. That part I'm pretty cool about.

However, if you put stock cars into non-stock classes something's not right. The original class for the Type R was something like BSP. It was more of a Solo 2 thing, but it was the same in Solo 1 for 97 for the one event that a Type R attended. The rules said that unclassified cars run in Street Prepared, but it sorta made sense in a way. If you counted the points of a Type R as if it were a modified GSR then it actually became a Street Prepared car. The way the MCO guys did it was that a Type R d00d could modify anything that was already modified by the factory and not take any points for it. So a Type R guy would be allowed to do full coilovers, cams, weight reduction, anti-roll bars, blah blah blah. But it's fair because Street Prepared GSR guys could do that too.

It was easy with the Type Rs because they ended up being a fully maximized prepped BSP car. They were actually technically 1 point over, but whatever. If you classified Z06s that way would they become ASP cars? Then you'd have to allow Z06 guys to do whatever they want to their cars or the more or less fully race prepped C5 guys would eat them. Why let things to get so complicated?

Stock cars go in stock classes. If there is one car that has that much of an advantage then other cars should be dropped down classes. The Z06 is an A1 car. There may be other cars that belong with it. Maybe not. The Z06 more or less belongs in the class by its self. Then allowable mod points can be adjusted to even the field when you move up the mod scale. Maybe an A2 C4 needs 7 points to compete with a Z06 in ASS1. Maybe it needs 10 or 14. I doubt it, but whatever. The current system can be modified to be reasonably fair while allowing for newer better cars. Do you seriously think there won't be another purposely built computer aided supercar from another manufacturer? Are those cars going to go automatically into modded classes too?

That's why the old system came down so hard. It didn't allow for new better cars because everything was written for old cars that don't come out anymore. Putting stock cars into mod classes is just a stopgap fix for when the current system becomes unusable. I don't believe that has happened after only 1 year.

[ADAM]

hmmm.... i think we are getting to hung up about what we consider stock....or factory....

if a factory takes the time to race prep the car...whats the difference if an individual does it...then that makes it modified?....what gives?

we could debate this forever....i think we should go to a pure PI system..and do away with all the classes....i have no issues going against "stock" M3's...or andrews modded rx7...or whatever it would end up being......that way "stock" zo6's would not be racing against "stock" c5's cause other than they look alike...they are not close in the PI...thus not racing each other....

[ADAM]

sorry..... one more thing...what difference does it make..if the car is a "sedan"...or FWD or RWD...or domestic or import....or v8..or I6...or Turbo 4....if they are simular in PI then they will be very simular in racing....

this season since no one was really close to me in CSP (other than dave...but he kept blowing up his car)

in MY MIND (the warped area it is :) )

i was racing against......

dave in his camero
andrew in his RX7
blair in his BMW M3

why...cause they had times that were very close to mine...and IF we would have all been in the same class we would have had a HELL of a battle in times the whole year.....it would be interesting to see what the performance index for these 4 cars would be...

does it matter the M3 is a "sedan" ...no...or that the camero is a pony car...or that the RX7 is a mild supercar...or that my 240sx is a 4 banger import?

[Shaman]

Originally posted by B18C5 That's why the old system came down so hard. It didn't allow for new better cars because everything was written for old cars that don't come out anymore. Putting stock cars into mod classes is just a stopgap fix for when the current system becomes unusable. I don't believe that has happened after only 1 year.

You might take some time to look at what times the Z06s have been running. And my only comment is: they gained an honest 20hp, dropped an honest (75? IIRC) pounds and picked up a whole new generation of computer-assisted handling in 2002. This is 2002. Other than the Viper GTS, the 360 Modena and the Porsche 911TT, there's nothing else sold in North America that remotely compares in track capability - it just happens to be a $75K car versus the $120K+ that the rest are charging for comparable performance. Lumping them in with stock version of: NSX, C5 convertible, Viper RT/10, Supra TT, 300ZX, RX7, or a Camaro with heads/cam/headers/light suspension also doesn't make sense... does it?

I don't claim to have the answers, I'm just (hopefully) seeding thought.

[B18C5]

It doesn't make sense really. The way I see it is sorta something like this:
A1 = 996TTs, Vipers, Z06s etc.
A2 = more or less current A1
A3 = more or less current A2
A4 = more or less current A3

This way only A2-A4 cars are eligible for ASS2. ASS1 can be configured so that A2-A4 cars will have enough prep points to compete against ASS1 Z06s. It is better than moving a stock Z06 to SS because you're not trying to match up a factory modified stock car with cars prepped by competitors. Everything can be matched up and it leaves room for growth.

[Brent]

Sorry to burst anyones bubble but C class is not fine. I only attended 2 events this season because my cars classification. That is probably more than I will attend next season if changes aren't made.

[Dave Barker]

Signed

George , if we adopt an A1 class that is excusively high index cars , and a subsequent ASS1 class that is also for high index cars and the rare lower class cars with mega points and we eliminate B family we will have to form an A 5 and ASS4 class due to the huge spread in PI in each class ( other than A 1) . One of the purposes of my suggestion was to decrease the number of classes and yet make the PI spread in each class not too large.by taking advantage of the huge PI overlap between A and B families. Keeping high index cars in stock catagories doesn't do this . We seem to now have 2 classes and possibly 3 classes ( A1, ASS1 and ASP) where a high index car will dominate where the whole rest of A familly either fights if out in classes with huge PI spreads such as A2 or just ASS2.( I must admit it was nice to know that ASS2 had population all year as no one wanted to bother moving up to ASS1)

OTOH there are 2 proposals here and although they are connected they don't have to be accepted together.

Adam , I agree with you re - the linear system being better fun , but that has been deemed too big a change to make ( this year)

Brent , I don't know enough about C class to make a lot of comment and my basic assumption it is ok could well be wrong. If the Miatas and killer Nissans, that have drive wheels where God meant them to be, get moved out of C family could a realignment of C1 , C2 and C3 be workable?

[Chris P]

Adam, please don't confuse driver preformence with car potiential.

I guess i should add a SIGNED for myself and my father.

[ctenche]

I agree with Adam in that I really don't see a purpose to this whole concept of RWD, FWD, family classification. of cars. If their performance index is the same then let them all run together. Who cares that one is a FWD 4 banger and the other is a 6 cylinder RWD car?

[B18C5]

Maybe that would work better. I don't know too much about A family's specific issues, so it's hard for me to say. I guess with some serious number crunching and reviewing of indexes and speculation and lap times and taking into account different drivers... I'm sure that the best method could be found, although it won't be easy.

Anyway... being at the bottom of a class isn't as bad as a position as it seems. I mean it is for that year, but think of what's going to happen when there are new cars that bump everything down. The first thing to happen is the car at the bottom of the old list gets pushed to the top of the next class down. Then someone in the middle of that class ends up at the bottom and isn't happy to be at the bottom of their class. It's always going to happen. But who knows what's in store for next year...

No matter what happens rule wise I'm going to have a blast next year! And that's what really matters! Woo hoo! :P

[DECH_92]

SIGNED

[Taylor]

Caius/Adam:
I think the only logical reason to separate FWD, AWD and RWD cars is rain. AWD cars would kill their RWD or FWD class brethren in the rain. I know this is somewhat of a rarity, but considering we've just knocked 2 events off the calendar, it becomes a little more of an issue.

I am mostly in favor of a PI only based system. However if there are no backers for that, then I like the idea of eliminating B (i.e. 4 classes) and beefing up the existing classes.

And yes, something must be done about the Z06. Heck what if someone brought that BMW E46 M3 factory Race car.. B1 right? Please. This is why a PI based system is the only fair way to go. Course I do think we'd be experiencing AWD/RWD and FWD mixes in the different PI classes.

How about an A0 class. Moves directly to ASP with mods? Then the Z06 and other "supercars" don't affect the rest of us. Maybe ASS/2 cars could move briefly to A0 (1 or 2 point spread) before getting knocked to ASS/1? (I know it seems a little weird, but something weird may be exactly what's needed to sort out these particular cars. I'm not sure pitting the E46 against the Z06 is gonna work. So the Z06 will have to move, or everyone's class (as Geo suggests) needs to get knocked down (thereby adding 2 more classes the stock one and the SS one).

Could do this for C family as well.. the RSX Type R should be on it's way in the next 12 to 24 months should it not? How long do you think it'll be before the Mini has another 30-40hp?

We need a system that will give us a place to put new cars in, instead of just dealing on a year-by-year basis of what our constituency is made up of.

[Taylor]

Another oddity coming right up!

Oh yeah and were are we going to put the SRT-4. Thing is factory rated at 215hp meanwhile the magazines are finding it's putting out 230ish hp to the wheels! Are we about to experience a Japaneese like syndrome with false factory specifications?

I don't care how heavy that SRT-4 is, being FWD, it technically should KILL anything in C family. Also wouldn't that make it the only factory turbo FWD car in C?

These cars are just going to be getting better and better as the years go on... do we really want to continue to adjust the classification system to suit them. PI Based system... c'mon.. you know you want it!

[ADAM]

i think the mix up of power trains would be great...that way all the cars with simular PI would have some benifit depending on the track..and track conditions....


Originally posted by Taylor
Caius/Adam:
I think the only logical reason to separate FWD, AWD and RWD cars is rain. AWD cars would kill their RWD or FWD class brethren in the rain. I know this is somewhat of a rarity, but considering we've just knocked 2 events off the calendar, it becomes a little more of an issue.

I am mostly in favor of a PI only based system. However if there are no backers for that, then I like the idea of eliminating B (i.e. 4 classes) and beefing up the existing classes.

And yes, something must be done about the Z06. Heck what if someone brought that BMW E46 M3 factory Race car.. B1 right? Please. This is why a PI based system is the only fair way to go. Course I do think we'd be experiencing AWD/RWD and FWD mixes in the different PI classes.

How about an A0 class. Moves directly to ASP with mods? Then the Z06 and other "supercars" don't affect the rest of us. Maybe ASS/2 cars could move briefly to A0 (1 or 2 point spread) before getting knocked to ASS/1? (I know it seems a little weird, but something weird may be exactly what's needed to sort out these particular cars. I'm not sure pitting the E46 against the Z06 is gonna work. So the Z06 will have to move, or everyone's class (as Geo suggests) needs to get knocked down (thereby adding 2 more classes the stock one and the SS one).

Could do this for C family as well.. the RSX Type R should be on it's way in the next 12 to 24 months should it not? How long do you think it'll be before the Mini has another 30-40hp?

We need a system that will give us a place to put new cars in, instead of just dealing on a year-by-year basis of what our constituency is made up of.

[Shaman]

Originally posted by Taylor
Are we about to experience a Japaneese like syndrome with false factory specifications?

LS1 Camaro/Firebird: rated 305hp, often hit 295rwhp-300rwhp stock until '2001 when they started hitting 310-320rwhp stock and got rated at 310hp. Everything old is new again...

[B18C5]

Uhhh, I was just about to ask what an SRT-4 was, but I just remembered. It might do okay in C class, but remember... it's still a Neon. (cheap jab) I'm gonna get my booty kicked for that one. Maybe it's a B car. Oh yeah, maybe there's no B. Ugh. I mean... how about we ban turbo Chryslers?

For C class that's kinda why C1 was left with only a few cars in it. As much as I'd love the Type R to stay at the top forever it's destined to be a bottom runner whenever something better comes out. About the RSX R, it's probably not coming after they came out with the factory handling package. But the Civic Type R is probably coming which should definitely give the R some problems. The good thing about this is eventually there will be a fully subscribed class. The bad thing is I'm gonna get my booty kicked one day. Oh well...

...but maybe, if B is eliminated then maybe there will be enough front-running cars moving to C that there will be a need for another stock class the same way there's likely a need for one or two more stock classes in A. So in that case who knows what's going to happen. Interesting. So maybe the Neon will be in the new C1 or C0. Maybe the Talons would be there too. Maybe the Type Rs will be there too. Interesting...

And I always thought that the E46 M3 was softer and more cushy than the E36. Especially the first two years with the Euro-spec motor. But I dunno really. Just the impression I got.

[Chris P]

Rain? I'll take a Integra Type R in the rain over a Talon or WRX. AWD cars still understeer alot, rain or dry. Type R is king! :)


RWD/AWD, FWD, how about simplicity? Proformence Potientials also has alot to do with it.

SRT-4, i don't believe its coming with a LSD which means all that power is useless. In stock from it should be compeditive with the Teg Type R at best.

[rainman]

Good point Krispy! I managed to beat out a couple of Talons a couple years ago by a few seconds at the DDT in the rain. Then when things dried up it was a different story :(

[ADAM]

ok..lets not make it too complicated...we all have to work with the track conditions at hand..

[turboawd]

Well a talon 2.0L fwd turbo is B car now. The SR-T 2.4L is lighther, has more power, better brakes and stiffer springs (stock). So its a B car at least.

I didn't race this year but I plan to be back next year. My car, 93 talon tsi awd is BSP, I have mods that are allowed in SP only without points. Under the proposed elimination of B, where does that put my heavy understeering car?

What about a linear system, say classes 1-10. Place the stock cars based on PI only. So many points or mods pumps you up a class. You can go as high as you want. If a car seems to be dominating a class, pump it up if need be. If a car like the z06 is already in class 1 and something faster comes along its very easy to reclassify cars up or down. Too many or not enough classes, just add or delete the number of classes and re-calculate. This can all be done on a spreadsheet very easily. One issue is modified and their mandatory safety equipment.. cages and fire suites. The number of modifieds is very small so they could be handled seperately with their own 2 or 3 classes.

Who cars about what wheels drive you or what displacement your racing against or how many doors you have. Is all about PI. Just like every other series out there. SCCA WC has 4cyl fwd against 6cyl rwd and small turbos or s/c against V8s.

[Dave Barker]

Where were all you guys last year? I have been a great fan of a linear system (just based on PI alone) yet at the workshop last year a grand total of 6 people showed up . Certainly appeared to be a resounding vote for the status quo!! Although I agree with all the people here who want a linear system there is no chance that the OSO or Solo 1 committee is going to agree to this for next year. Therefore the 2 proposals I made are to improve the existing family system for next year and do not preclude a linear system in the year following. If you want this to happen you have to attend the workshop and voice your opinion.

[Shaman]

The thing is, Dave, the new breed of sports car is a catalyst for change. You have stability control/yaw control/active handling on a lot of the new breed in the last few years, and big power is now commonplace (unless someone thinks 405hp+ in a 3050 pound car is just chicken feed).

I think the FD RX7 could have been a catalyst years ago, but it wasn't popular enough (they only sold a few thousand total, while Z06s sold something like 11,000 in 2002 alone) or well enough known to have this problem. Frankly, when mildly modified versions of the RX7 hit Solo 1, they got the bum's rush. But now you have a huge following for a very fast car, so what to do... if I hit my guess, there could soon be as many Z06s in Solo 1 as there are Integras. Food for thought.

[Taylor]

Dave: Well if you remember correctly (or perhaps I'm not remember correctly but...) there was a bunch of grouciness from the CCC on demand for a change. We only had like 2 or 3 people who were thinking like that (yourself, myself and probably a couple others who publically expressed interest in a linear system). Course this year, I only made it to 4 events and it was funny to hear a lot more people talking about a linear PI system. Kinda suprised it was not one of your proposals there at the beginning.

[ADAM]

how would you work in modifications to a linear PI system though?

[Dave]

that is the billion dollar question. I, of course, have the answer but I'm saving it for the Workshop :)

[ADAM]

spill your beans head HADA weasel master.....

:)

[Dave]

patience, my pet, patience..... :cool:

[ADAM]

can someone give directions on how to get to casc on petrolia?

[Dave]

Hwy 400 north to Steeles, east on Steeles to Petrolia (first light past Keele St.), right on Petrolia. CASC office is in the building on the south-east corner when you come to the first stop sign.

[ADAM]

thanks evil hada weasel....

[turboawd]

I would assume that the modifications would still be based on points, similar to the existing. The most important thing is to get the stock PI correct for each vehicle. There needs to be a larger spread in PIs than the current one.

[Chris P]

come on dave, play nice :p

[Dave Barker]

Taylor , I was told in no uncertain terms that a linear system was not going to happen for next year so in my mind this is the easiest next best solution that involves a minimum of change to the status quo yet provides some real improvements for next year. At least it gets rid of some of the performance overlap between the 3 families . As others have said , my real competition ( in my mind) ofter involved people in other families who ran similar times and not some of the people in my own class. Due to the wide spread in PI in the root classes I sometimes felt my car was totally outgunned and other times I was definitely in the best car ( depending of who showed up ) . Yet some guys in the B and C families had cars which seemed to match mine in performance much better.
Much better if we all ran together. As I have said before , it is much more fun to be a 3 rd place runner in a class of 10 than to be 1 st or 2 nd in a class of 3 .