Definition of "R" Compounds

[tanney]

There is a discussion going on at the National level about defining "R" compounds for future rule books.

Since the line between good street tires and competition tires is, well, "blurred", it may help having some type of guideline to determine the difference. The one way that is beings discussed is adding a treadwear rating limit of, say, 140 as determined by the manufacturers. Now of course we all know that the manufacturers basically pull a number out of a hat when it comes to ratings similar to this as to not show their entire hand to their competitors, but it is a starting point.

Thoughts?

[Logan]

If the manufacturer calls it a competition tire, it's an R, otherwise it's a street tire.

[13inches]

It might be easier to compile a list of approved/legal/valid R-Tires. Not sure how far back you need to go (A008? R1?), but there can't be more than 15 or 20.

Hoosier A6/R6
Hoosier A3S05
Hoosier A/R3S04
Hoosier A/R3S03
Hoosier Autocrosser
Kumho V710
Kumho Ecsta V700
Kumho Victoracer V700
Yokohama A032R
Yokohama A048R
Yokohama A008
Avon Tech R
Avon Tech RA
BFG R1
Toyo RA1

..?

[Marsh]

The problem with the "approved list" is that a tire that is street legal and not on the list would be considered a street would it not? Because, after all, the book allows any street legal tire.

I'm all for the tread wear number if you're going to draw an R-compound line.

Other wise it would likely be better to make and approved "street tire" list. Anything that is DOT and not on the list is an R.

[Slowpoke]

If the manufacturer calls it a competition tire, it's an R, otherwise it's a street tire.
This is a fuzzy line. The Falken 115 and 615 are found in the "Motorsports" AND "Tuner" categories of the manufacturer's website. The 615 has a UTQG of 220, and it's marketed for SCCA street tire competition.

The BF Goodrich KD:

"Track-ready ultra high performance tire with near race-level grip. Multi-time magazine showdown winner. The highest dry cornering mark (1.08g) one leading testing organization has ever recorded for a full tread depth street-legal tire*. Who it’s for: High-performance car owners and weekend track event competitors seeking absolute no-compromise, dry cornering performance. "

Yet, the UTQG is 200 AA A.

If you went by BF Goodrich marketing jargon alone, this is no different than the language used for the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup and Pirelli P-Zero Corsa. The difference is, the latter two manufacturers don't mind putting UTQG's below 100 for those specific tires.

Then there's...

The BF Goodrich Drag Radial:

We all know that Drag Racing is illegal on the street, so this must be a competition only tire, no?

"Revolutionary performance for street and track. What it is: The drive-to-the-track-and-back, street-legal radial tire that has set import and domestic world records for street legal drag racing. In front-wheel-drive and rear-wheel-drive sizes. Who it’s for: Street radial drag racers and other enthusiasts who want the drag radial look and performance."

UTQG: 00 B C . Because they just don't want to qualify it.


So, should it be a street tire or an R-Compound? Manfacturer to manufacturer, there's a difference in marketing policy, and UTQG qualification.

[gatherer]

tread wear is probably the best way to do it .....

all R-compounds are approved for street use (they are D.O.T. rated) and so having a list of R-Compound tires means that any new tire to hit the market is instantly a street tire until a bulletin is issued to correct the rule book.

I think we should use 140 as a rating since that would be the same as what is used in the states for their street tire classes, which seem to be very popular.

Remember the main benefit of taking from the USA rule book is it's tried and true for the most part. no need to re-think stuff or try to come up with something that works.

[Guillermo]

That's exactly what I was going to write but Jason beat me to it.
Copy the tire rules from SCCA, it's the logical thing to do.

[AlienDNA]

If we don't have street tire classes, why do we need to define what an R-compound tire is?

Under the current rule set, only the Stock classes require claiming a prep point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any two allowable, point-claiming modifications in Stock that would equal - let alone exceed - the performance benefit of simply mounting appropriately sized R-compound tires, given the same vehicle and driver.

Why not eliminate the prep point and require all tires, regardless of class, to have D.O.T. approval?

[13inches]

If we don't have street tire classes, why do we need to define what an R-compound tire is?

Under the current rule set, only the Stock classes require claiming a prep point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are any two allowable, point-claiming modifications in Stock that would equal - let alone exceed - the performance benefit of simply mounting appropriately sized R-compound tires, given the same vehicle and driver.

Why not eliminate the prep point and require all tires, regardless of class, to have D.O.T. approval?I'm sure this is leading towards a street tire addition to next years rule book. Of course, it would make more sense if the thread was titled "Definition of "street tires""...

:cool:

[bbqman]

As far as competitors are concerned, there is nothing fuzzy or confusing about the way tires are classes right now. Streets are streets, DOT R's are R's and the rest are slicks. I think that the ASN may be confused but we are not.

The tread wear cannot be used because they are meaningless. ie RA1s went from 40 to 100 without any compound alterations....

If the goal is to set a standard for Autoslalom 'ST' classes , then based on what is available and their threadwear labels, the rule book can set the cutoff. Thats how the SCCA does it and it works.

[gatherer]

Carl,

while I completely agree that competitors might not be confused ... the issue still remains, RA1s might be classed in our minds as R-compounds however they are in essence Street tires, same with V710s or any other D.O.T. Stamped tire, they can be driven legally on the street, so therefore they are Street tires. there is nothing in the rule that states which tires are to be classed as R-compound tires, and none of the manufacturer's websites, call them R-compound tires, However in our rule book (as I've pointed out in the past) we use the term R-Compound tires without defining the term. And we charge Stock competitors 1 point for running R-compound tires, without that definition. Whose to say my winter tires are not R-compound tires?

I know Common sense of the competitor ussually says they know the definition in their head of what a r-compound tire is, but is is best to have something in writing in the rule book that defines it for all and sets a clear border to level the playing field.

regards,

Jason

[miataboi]

Is this the biggest issue in Solo 2?

:confused:

[Slowpoke]

the issue still remains, RA1s might be classed in our minds as R-compounds however they are in essence Street tires, same with V710s or any other D.O.T. Stamped tire, they can be driven legally on the street, so therefore they are Street tires.

Someone at the Solosprint nationals mentioned to me that they got a ticket because "For Competition Use Only" was stamped on the side of their RA1's. I (like many others) also happen to get a discount on their RA-1's because of my Toyo RACE GROUP MEMBER card.

So, DOT stamp or no, that would not be a street tire. But I get your point. To me, the fuzzy line is more with Pirelli P-Zero Corsas, Michelin Pilot Sport Cups and other tires that are marketed as "a tire that drives comfortably on the street, but you can take it to the track without having to swap tires." At the moment both of the above have UTQG below 100, so those two aren't an issue. But what about a shaved Advan Neova?

And it's easier to keep track of a list of R's than it is to list every single street tire, in case no one thought of that.

Dropping the number of PIPs allowed in stock class to 1, to assume that everyone should run R's in stock class, limits the setup choices of participants. Why do we want to do that? Because we experienced people have R's and we want to limit the choices of people with lower budgets?

I'm still of the opinion that R-comps shouldn't be allowed in stock class. But if we create street tire classes, that should take care of my concern: a low cost entry level class. Unfortunately, we don't have enough people in the series to fill the spots in new classes...

But with the divergence of A6's and 710's as a second level of performance, should we have a second category of R's... Uber-R's that are worth 2 points? I think so.

Take D-Stock for example: An Acura Integra with good dynamic camber that can take advantage of Uber R's can use their two points that way. A stock WRX with tons of body roll and terrible dynamic camber who can't use Uber R's as well as the Honda driver can instead use two big honkin' sway bars to try to keep their car a little flatter to get a more even contact patch. Or maybe just a rear sway bar with a non-Uber R. I'm in favour of leaving it to the driver to decide what's best and what is within their budget.

The latter is also a lower cost solution over multiple seasons. Again, supporting the budget competitor.

Miataboi: Another wonderful contribution. Thanks. Opens up new dimensions on the subject.

[CharlesK]

The problem with the "approved list" is that a tire that is street legal and not on the list would be considered a street would it not? Because, after all, the book allows any street legal tire.

I'm all for the tread wear number if you're going to draw an R-compound line.

Other wise it would likely be better to make and approved "street tire" list. Anything that is DOT and not on the list is an R.

As for the 'otherwise' suggestion - it's much harder to come up with a comprehensive list of true street tires than true R compound tires. SCCA creates an elegibility list for DOT R tires depending on availability by a certain point in the season in a minimum number of sizes, but I don't think they bother to approve regular street (touring/all season type tires) tires.

The best solution would be a combination of generic treadwear rating and a classification list - i.e. by default tires below treadwear 140 are R compounds, and in the unlikely case that a manufacturer comes out with a Hoosier/V710 type tire (minimal tread and really fast) with a 150 treadwear then have the National Solosport Technical committee add it to a R Compound defined list.

[Slowpoke]

Though I haven't tried thise, to add to the list of borderline tires like the Falkens:

Bridgestone RE-01R (http://productcat.bridgestonetire.com/generate_pdf.aspx?product_id=1111&language=English) 140 A A

Self-promoting article (http://www.bridgestonetire.com/drifting/content.asp?id=news/060804a)

[AlienDNA]

This may be where the litigious U.S. society comes to our rescue. How about "No Warranty = Competition Tire". I could only find one tire we'd commonly recognize as an R-compound with a warranty: Michelin Pilot Sport Cup.

[Greg F]

How many people are using those obscure tires, i.e. other than 710, Victoracer, etc? The list can't be that long, so why not just go with a list and cover updates via bulletins and/or the track steward's ruling?

There may be no official definition for Rs, but we all know what they are, or we wouldn't be buying them.

[Dave L]

I think we should hire a pirate for scrutineering. when looking at your tires if he proclaims "Arrrrrgh!!!" then its an R compound tire, there is no arguing with a pirate.

[JAYh]

^^ Best idea ever.

- J

[tanney]

I agree..... Pete lets hear your best ARRGGG!:)

[JT_TT_DS]

We've got the same discussion on our winnipeg board, and we've kinda come up with this...

The scca has set their limit at 140, and that's a pretty good because only bridgestone even goes to 140. yokohama are 180 and falkens are 200.

Most people buying R's to be competative are buying V710's or A6's and they are so much faster then the falken or the yoko that nobody can really argue that and their treadware rating is so much lower that they aren't close.

..............personal thoughts..................

nobody can deny that a RA-1 is a quite a bit different then a street tire. even when you shave a yokohama you still have tread, RA-1's turn to slicks. the compound on the street tires just won't gain grip like the RA-1 does when it gets heated up. no they are not the best R compound to have, they do very well if you have a rough surface or want to have R's that you can do laps with and not worry that they will evaporate during lap 3 of 10.

[Pete@Marcor]

I agree..... Pete lets hear your best ARRGGG!:)

Remember everyone, our "Scrutineering" is for safety related, and vehicle eligibility, not for rules compliance. :-)

That being said, I am of the opinion that we have two options. We either need to clearly identify how an R-Compound tire is determined, or we need to eliminate the need. I don't see any Street Tire classes being created in the near future, so it then comes down to deciding if we want to give the freedom of not running an R-Compound tire, and doing something else for that point.

If we keep the 2 points for stock, and make an R-Compound 1 of those points, then most competitors will use them, and do one other item.

The only people I see this as benefitting is the novice competitor. I don't know of any experienced competitor who would give up using an R-Compound, for anything else that is legal for Stock.

Is it worth our efforts to do so? If it is, I think we should simply use the treadwear number. The actual number is useless, but it does show how each manufacturer views their tires. Generally, 140 is a pretty good break, and I would be good with that in the rulebook.

[finboy]

..... If it is, I think we should simply use the treadwear number. The actual number is useless, but it does show how each manufacturer views their tires. Generally, 140 is a pretty good break, and I would be good with that in the rulebook.


:confused:

[13inches]

nice find. you win this round.........!

[Not4you]

I am new to solo and am just learning the rules, so I apologise if my interpretation is off.

On the car classification website I don't see mention of tires (ie. checking R-compound to take additional PIPs) so I am assuming that there is no handiacp to using these tires. In other words, using Rs has a "free" benefit - no PIPs - over regular street tires. Am I right with this assumption?

My car, with modifications done for personal enjoyment and before any knowledge of the rule books, collects 15+ PIPs and is classed as GT1. Given that I am a novice on a budget and do not readily have the means for transporting race tires, tools for easily changing tires at the track etc - if I compete I will do so on my street tires. I think I'm right in saying that this clearly puts me at a significant disadvantage in the GT1 class (or any class really).

Is there an option for people in this situation to take negative PIPs for using street tires and thus possibly drop down a class to where they may run at a more competitive level?

Again, I apologise if I'm getting this all wrong and I do not mean to detract from the usefullness of this thread.

[Guillermo]

I am new to solo and am just learning the rules, so I apologise if my interpretation is off.

On the car classification website I don't see mention of tires (ie. checking R-compound to take additional PIPs) so I am assuming that there is no handiacp to using these tires. In other words, using Rs has a "free" benefit - no PIPs - over regular street tires. Am I right with this assumption?

My car, with modifications done for personal enjoyment and before any knowledge of the rule books, collects 15+ PIPs and is classed as GT1. Given that I am a novice on a budget and do not readily have the means for transporting race tires, tools for easily changing tires at the track etc - if I compete I will do so on my street tires. I think I'm right in saying that this clearly puts me at a significant disadvantage in the GT1 class (or any class really).

Is there an option for people in this situation to take negative PIPs for using street tires and thus possibly drop down a class to where they may run at a more competitive level?

Again, I apologise if I'm getting this all wrong and I do not mean to detract from the usefullness of this thread.

Your question belongs in the solo 1 (Solosprint) section.
The people on top of your post are discussing tire rules for Solo II (Autoslalom).

[Not4you]

Sorry everyone - yup, I'm a damn rookie!! Mods, please remove if necessary.

[fritZman]

...
I don't know of any experienced competitor who would give up using an R-Compound, for anything else that is legal for Stock.

Honestly, I'd give up R compounds in a heartbeat if I could.

The only advantages to R compounds are the added competitiveness (the sole reason why I run R right now) and marginal increase of a rush when driving on them.

The disadvantages are cost, transportation/mounting, hiding driving mistakes, and loosing that experience of knowing exactly how your car will react in an emergency on the street.

Falken Azenis are great tires and frankly, if there was a street tire class I'd be all over it.

[Marsh]

Honestly, I'd give up R compounds in a heartbeat if I could.

The only advantages to R compounds are the added competitiveness (the sole reason why I run R right now) and marginal increase of a rush when driving on them.

The disadvantages are cost, transportation/mounting, hiding driving mistakes, and loosing that experience of knowing exactly how your car will react in an emergency on the street.

Falken Azenis are great tires and frankly, if there was a street tire class I'd be all over it.

Maybe the cost is true for you, but for most people it isn't that much more expensive. For most people R-compounds are less expensive than good street tires. Plus running streets means replacing them every year. Normally my streets last 2 years. If I slalom on them then they last one season... maybe. R's also last a season and cost less to buy. Plus many people in lighter cars can make a set of R's last for two seasons (my 710's lasted a season and half).

As for loosing experience on the street. Street tires should be like riding a bike. If you think you might be getting rusty then use your streets for an event our two at the beginning or end of the year when it's colder out and R's are less of an advantage. I've set FTD on streets, at club events, several times over the years.

[craig]

if there was a street tire class I'd be all over it.

You just have to run at PMG ... or convince MCO to have street tire classes locally (or penalize R's more heavily).

[Slowpoke]

Honestly, I'd give up R compounds in a heartbeat if I could.
Ditto... if there was a street tire class in which I could be competitive for PAX, I'd do it. As it is, the car isn't maximized so I aim for FTD. Then Jesus gets in my way.

[JoeT]

Ditto... if there was a street tire class in which I could be competitive for PAX, I'd do it. As it is, the car isn't maximized so I aim for FTD. Then Jesus gets in my way.

Quote from Jesus:

SteveD, I can beat you with one eye closed.. !! LOL :D

[miataboi]

While I understand the reason for liking street tires and ST classes... and I wouldn't be opposed to them... and I'd even consider running them... but eventually.. I'd be back to R's.

Lateral G's make me HARD!

If you're a rally guy, or an ice-race guy... streets are fine... but a REAL tarmac / circuit guy.. HAS to get off on lateral G's!!!

It's addictive.

Streets have SOME good things about them... but lateral G's rule.

I like blacking-out mid-corner.... only to awake by throttle-application time!

Adds to the challenge.
:D

[Slowpoke]

Quote from Jesus:

SteveD, I can beat you with one eye closed.. !! LOL :D

... and one hand left palming the steering wheel.

[fritZman]

Maybe the cost is true for you, but for most people it isn't that much more expensive. For most people R-compounds are less expensive than good street tires. Plus running streets means replacing them every year. Normally my streets last 2 years. If I slalom on them then they last one season... maybe. R's also last a season and cost less to buy. Plus many people in lighter cars can make a set of R's last for two seasons (my 710's lasted a season and half).

As for loosing experience on the street. Street tires should be like riding a bike. If you think you might be getting rusty then use your streets for an event our two at the beginning or end of the year when it's colder out and R's are less of an advantage. I've set FTD on streets, at club events, several times over the years.

I've got about 5 years of Solo2 seasons on street tires (even an 'A' class MCO championship on Kumho MX in 2004), and I've always had well over a full summer of wear including 12+ events. While my Azenis from 2004 are close to the wear bars, they've had a full 2005 Solo2 season plus almost two full summers of driving. All on a porty 3200+ lbs Nissan.

In my experience, I don't find Solo2 to be that hard on street tires. While some lots are more abrasive than others, the same argument applies to using Rs so longevity point is somewhat moot. If anything, longevity goes against R because they're softer (so they wear more for a given event than streets) and heat cycle out much sooner than a grippy street.

Comparing cost, my Azenis RT-615 are only $152USD at Vulcan tire (18" no less!) whereas the V710s are about $90USD/tire more at TR. For $152 USD/tire, I don't really mind roasting a set every season, even though I haven't been able to. Besides the extra tire cost, running R compounds also require you invest in rims, tire mounting/removal, aluminum jack, inevitable wheel studs replacement, possible tire tail or trailer, and portable impact gun.

I can see an extra $1000+ being consumed per season simply for knocking an artifical 2-3 season off Solo2 times. I say artifical b/c it's not a driver skill improvement in pace, but mostly an issue of "purchasing" speed.

As for loosing street experience, I was a little surprised one day last summer on a quiet country road when I out-braked myself coming into a tight corner. With my experience, that never happens - especially since I wasn't close to my limit. Yet after 1/2 a dozen events on R compounds, my brain had been coded to accept a shorter braking distance when driving in a spirited manner. While I can simply adjust to the different limits, my point is that it becomes one more variable you have to consider while making a split-second maneover to avoid that car/deer which suddenly appeared in your lane.

I'm not posting to hack on R compounds, because you truely do feel like Superman on them until the cycle out (too quickly unfortunately). My point is that if there was a viable incentive for streets in Solo2, I'd use it for the gains in simplicity, cost, and experience. MCO used to have a great program which knock 2% off your times if you drove on streets. I PITA for the score keeper, but a great way for newbies, and veterans, to enjoy a simpler lifestyle in Solo2.

[13inches]

While I understand the reason for liking street tires and ST classes... and I wouldn't be opposed to them... and I'd even consider running them... but eventually.. I'd be back to R's.

Lateral G's make me HARD!

If you're a rally guy, or an ice-race guy... streets are fine... but a REAL tarmac / circuit guy.. HAS to get off on lateral G's!!!

It's addictive.

Streets have SOME good things about them... but lateral G's rule.

I like blacking-out mid-corner.... only to awake by throttle-application time!

Adds to the challenge.
:D

...says the guy who's building a street tire car.....

:rolleyes:

[Pete@Marcor]

I would not be against a Street Tire class, or sets of classes. I would even consider running in STS or STX, if we end up using the SCCA rules. But, I will continue to use R-Compounds as long as they are allowed, unless there was a HUGE time break for street tires.

I will always have an extra set of wheels and tires to compete on, as that set will always be faster. If we run street tires, I will shave them. So, their life goes down. And, the cost is not necessarily any better for a street tire than for an R-Compound tire. We could go through a lot of examples where a street tire might be a little cheaper. But, there are times when the R-compounds are cheaper, as well, if you are comparing top notch street tires.

I expect a set of competition tires to last me a year, or less. Any longer, and they are too hard or it is a bonus. If they are of any use past that fall, they could be used for club events.

My concern is dilution of the current classes. I would actually like to see a street tire class, like the US, but that is only my personal preference. I still think that Stock, SS and SP should allow R-Compounds.

[soloZ]

Comparing cost, my Azenis RT-615 are only $152USD at Vulcan tire (18" no less!) whereas the V710s are about $90USD/tire more at TR. For $152 USD/tire, I don't really mind roasting a set every season, even though I haven't been able to. Besides the extra tire cost, running R compounds also require you invest in rims, tire mounting/removal, aluminum jack, inevitable wheel studs replacement, possible tire tail or trailer, and portable impact gun.

I can see an extra $1000+ being consumed per season simply for knocking an artifical 2-3 season off Solo2 times. I say artifical b/c it's not a driver skill improvement in pace, but mostly an issue of "purchasing" speed.



That can't be right, your spending an extra 1000 dollars a season by running R compound tires? exspensive tire changer guy? I can see the first season you run R's being the exspensive one but after you allready have all the extras like rims, jack(doesn't have to be a fancy Aluminum one), drill(don
't need a portable impact gun). If you need a trailor or a tire tail that is one of the hard parts to swallow, mostly due the car you pick.

[fritZman]

That can't be right, your spending an extra 1000 dollars a season by running R compound tires? exspensive tire changer guy? I can see the first season you run R's being the exspensive one but after you allready have all the extras like rims, jack(doesn't have to be a fancy Aluminum one), drill(don
't need a portable impact gun). If you need a trailor or a tire tail that is one of the hard parts to swallow, mostly due the car you pick.

I think you're forgetting that an entire set of R is consumed per season (at the very least they cycle out and are uncompetitive).

Tire rack V710 in 275/40/17 is $227 each. (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Kumho&model=ECSTA+V710)

Add approx $100 USD in shipping and you have $1010 USD which equals about $1,187 Cdn.

Add brokerage and GST (exactly what service did they apply to this good other than taxing it?) and it's now about $1300 Cdn.

Mount the tire and pay to dispose the old ones brings that number close to $1400 Cdn.

Average out the initial investment and maintenance for other items over 5 years (rims, trailer/tail, tools) can bring it to $1500+ Cdn pretty quick.

[Marsh]

I think you're forgetting that an entire set of R is consumed per season (at the very least they cycle out and are uncompetitive).

Tire rack V710 in 275/40/17 is $227 each. (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Kumho&model=ECSTA+V710)

Add approx $100 USD in shipping and you have $1010 USD which equals about $1,187 Cdn.

Add brokerage and GST (exactly what service did they apply to this good other than taxing it?) and it's now about $1300 Cdn.

Mount the tire and pay to dispose the old ones brings that number close to $1400 Cdn.

Average out the initial investment and maintenance for other items over 5 years (rims, trailer/tail, tools) can bring it to $1500+ Cdn pretty quick.

OK, now how much would it cost in extra street tire replacements to run street tires? BTW you'll have to shave them if you want to actually be competitive, and they'll have to be one of 2 or maybe 3 tires such as the Hancook RS2s or Azenis. Then if you're going to drive your car everyday you'll need another set of street tires again since you can't really drive a shaved tire in the rain.

[fritZman]

OK, now how much would it cost in extra street tire replacements to run street tires? BTW you'll have to shave them if you want to actually be competitive, and they'll have to be one of 2 or maybe 3 tires such as the Hancook RS2s or Azenis. Then if you're going to drive your car everyday you'll need another set of street tires again since you can't really drive a shaved tire in the rain.

If we're going to compared apples to apples in terms cost of extracting the most performance from a set of street or R tires, then fine, shave a set of streets (although I've read the Azenis don't benefits from that as much as Hancooks).

But then you'll have to get TWO sets of V710s for the one season as one set will noticeably start to cycle of it's sweet zone within 25-30 runs. There's no way a set of streets (even shaved) will cycle out of its optimum performance anywhere nearly as quick. It would very likely last a whole season.

[Marsh]

But then you'll have to get TWO sets of V710s for the one season as one set will noticeably start to cycle of it's sweet zone within 25-30 runs...

Only on heavier cars. Light weight cars, like civics and miatas, get much better wear out of 710's. I used my 710's for a solid 15 events or more in 2005 and still got 5 events out of them in 2006 (being competitive for 4 of them). Every event was 5 runs or more, so that's 100 runs or more from one set. They are also much more resistent to heat cycling than the victoracers were, in my experience. Although I must admit I only ran victoracers on my heavier Prelude which was also a glutten for tires. So the problem here is not that R's are expensive. They're expensive to keep you YOUR car.

[fritZman]

Only on heavier cars. Light weight cars, like civics and miatas, get much better wear out of 710's. I used my 710's for a solid 15 events or more in 2005 and still got 5 events out of them in 2006 (being competitive for 4 of them). Every event was 5 runs or more, so that's 100 runs or more from one set. They are also much more resistent to heat cycling than the victoracers were, in my experience. Although I must admit I only ran victoracers on my heavier Prelude which was also a glutten for tires. So the problem here is not that R's are expensive. They're expensive to keep you YOUR car.

:confused:

You're bouncing between points here.

I've proven that R compounds cost at least $1000+ Cdn per year to run, and often more than that.

If you're going to use the 'shaved street tires cost' excuse, then you have to compare apples to apples and realise that the same typical hard-core driver would purchase two sets of R per season as v710s noticeably drop off after 35+ runs, despite having lots of rubber left. The difference in pace btw a shaved Azenis tire and non-shaved is quite likely the same difference in v710s on run 3 versus 40 (although I don't have any scientific proof).

Whether you compared wear or relative peak performance, street tires are a good bit more economical than R compounds. The only thing they don't provide is that extra bit of a rush, or competitivness in a non-street tire class.

BTW, after 80+ runs in 2006, I still have both grooves visible on my v710s. These same tires will be used for a couple of MCO events plus the Picton Provincials in '07. I fully expect to see over 100 runs. From my observations with fellow MCO v710 runners in lighter vehicles, wear (in terms of heat cycling and rubber remaining) is about the same - but only because a car like mine can typically run a wider tire. However, I end up paying for that extra rubber, probably $400 more compared to a 15" tire. As I've shown earlier, my costs to run an R is an easy $1400-1500 per season.

So you're right, running Rs is more expensive on my car. But not $1500 more expensive. ;)

[wikdslo]

Sadly, I think the solution that everyone is looking for is that there is no real solution.

The way it is set up right now is probably as good as its going to get, tire-wise. If you run R-compounds, you pay more $$$ and it costs you points. If you don't, you save money and points which could otherwise be put into other parts of your car that might benefit you.

For those that don't have a lot of money (like myself) i picked up used R-compounds for a reasonable price. No, they aren't top of the line. No, they aren't the best size. No, they aren't very competitive. And no, they aren't even new. But considering the money I wanted to invest in tires, and the performance upgrade i got over my street tires, I am quite happy with the situation.

If you want to run street tires, go for it. You can still be competitive, and you'll save a lot of money.

If you want to run R-compunds, go for it. Like some some said, after about 30 runs, you can expect to see the tires performance start to drop off a bit, and you can either deal with that loss in performance, or go dish out more $$$ for a new set.

Some people can buy their speed, others have to earn it.

Whatever the case may be, the main point is to go out and have some fun, which I know I always do at these events... (even though i consistently lose!)

[wikdslo]

I've proven that R compounds cost at least $1000+ Cdn per year to run, and often more than that.


This is true if you plan to have the latest and greatest, and want to make sure your tires are in tip top shape.

You don't have to buy new ones each season. Different cars wear tires differently. Some cars may require new tires each season, others may not. Thats a choice you make when you decide to race.

Like all things, each decision has ups and downs. If someone want to run R-compounds, but their car chews through tires and they dont want to spend $1000+ / season, then get an R-compound that will last longer.


If that doesnt work for them, then likely nothing will, and they are just going to go on kicking a dead horse.

[Pete@Marcor]

Sorry, but I don't agree with the argument that R-Compounds are significantly more expensive to run. In 2005, Hanif and I both ran the same car in Regionals. 10 events, 2 drivers. 1 set of 4 tires.

He won overall, so one could argue that he was going reasonably quickly. I could guess that those tires have over 100 runs on them, and they were still quick at the end of the season.

In 2006, I ran my car by myself, and have at least 75 runs on one set. They are close to being done, but they were still quick at the end of the season. And, I could probably sell them off to a novice who would like to try them. They are probably worth $100-150 for the set.

If I am going to run a true street tire, I still would not expect the tire to last any more than 10-15 events. They will be shaved, so undriveable on the street. I will need an extra set of wheels, so all is equal there.

I spend around $800 per set plus taxes for the R-Compounds. A set of Azenis or Ecsta MXs will cost around $150 per tire, plus $25-40 per tire for shaving. The BFG KD is actually more, at $230 per tire, plus shaving.

If I decided that I was going to be using the BFG, it is both more expensive and slower. What is the advantage?

I know that running R-Compounds will cost $800-1500 per year. However, running a true street tire to that level of competitiveness will also run $750-2000.

At the moment, there are 2 ultimate R-Compounds. Hoosier or the V710. You buy those, you get instant competitiveness, assuming you are in a reasonably well prepared car. I don't see that changing if we move to Street Tires. But, one has to figure out what the good Street Tires are.

[fritZman]

In your case, you're running a hybrid example.

You're comparing costs to a hard core street runner (shaved) versus a casual R compound user (1 set for a whole season). If that works for you, great.

As per my previous example, the same theoretical hard-core driver running streets would shave a dedicated set, and if running R compounds, would likely purchase two sets of v710s.

Your point in selling used tires is a valid, and one I had not factored into the equation.

[Pete@Marcor]

In your case, you're running a hybrid example.

You're comparing costs to a hard core street runner (shaved) versus a casual R compound user (1 set for a whole season). If that works for you, great.

As per my previous example, the same theoretical hard-core driver running streets would shave a dedicated set, and if running R compounds, would likely purchase two sets of v710s.

Your point in selling used tires is a valid, and one I had not factored into the equation.

You would consider me to be a casual R-Compound user? Just what justifies being called a hard-core guy? :confused: I won my class in the Regionals this year, and came second overall. I was one of 2 competitors who travelled to EVERY Regional event in 2006.

Just because I can make a set of R-Compounds last a year, it does not mean that I am an occasional user. Also, a set of street tires prepared to be competitive will not last more than a year.

I do use more than one set of tires per year, but I either use them for lapping or club events. Sometimes I will use last year's tires for those purposes, as well. The tires I have for the Regionals need to stay as competitive as possible. So, it is unlikely that I will use them for club events. This would be true of R-Compounds or Street tires.

[bbqman]

FSAQ has been running Street Touring classes for 2 years now, and I can tell you that for a street tire class to work, it must be similar to SCCA StS and STX. Just giving a break for street tires doesn"t work well.

That said, anyone who wants to be competitive in a street tires class will spend AS MUCH money as the guy on R compounds. The reason being is that competitive ST tires need to be shaved....added cost and reduced miles. And yes, contrary to popular belief, street tires do "go off" as the heat cycles rise.

ST classes makes sense to attract noobs who have "badly" modified cars in relation to existing rules.
ST classes WILL NOT FTD at a local event provided their are regulars in all classes.
Only the BEST MODDED ST cars can win PAX in our regions.

R compounds ARE way more fun to drive on than ST tires.

You WILL learn more about your car on ST tires.

In the end, if you really want to race on Street tires, comes to Quebec...the classes and competition awaits!!

[jduffett]

Just to add in $.02 from a not-so-serious competitor...

-I have run several 8-event seasons on street tires, that I also drove on the street. Even if I had a street tire class in which to run, where no one was swapping their everyday street tires for shaved "street tires", I wouldn't do this again. Having dedicated autox tires (be they street or Rs) saves me money. A single set of decently sticky street tires was lasting me barely a full season, and this meant I was essentially--wait, there's no essentially, I WAS--running slicks on the street from late September until probably late November when the winters went on. On the same car, a set of second-tier R-comps lasted me a full season and still had probably 50% on them in the fall. Not to mention the car is faster and more fun. My street tires showed really no appreciable wear, and if I was still driving that car as much as I was, I'd expect to get at least two, maybe three seasons of street driving on them. Obviously, this all varies with car, driver, and tire, but anyone seriously thinking that a) they can show up on their regular street tire and be competitive in a street tire class, and/or b) that doing so will in any way be cheaper than having a dedicated tire, is deluding themselves.

-having gotten that out of the way, if you're getting a dedicated set of tires, there are so many variables involved that for any particular combination of car and driver (and level of competition) you can make a valid case for either streets or Rs being more cost effective, but I believe at the end of the day, for similar levels of competitiveness (assuming a street tire class is available), you're talking pretty minor differences. For me, the cost difference is minimal, so I'll choose R-comps every time.

-with regards to street tire classes, for the reasons above I think simply having a street tire verion of the classes we have now is pointless. The real point to SCCA ST classes, it seems to me, is not in the tires really, but in the fact that prep rules are designed to reflect typical street car modifications. As a not-so-serious competitor, I am, for the most part, NOT willing to compromise what I do with my daily driven car in order to be competitive in a given class for 4-6 minutes each weekend. This means my 626 was an FSP car simply because I modified it for my own pleasure rather than strictly competition purposes. An SCCA-style ST class may give people with a similar modification philosophy somewhere to play where they can be more competitive. If such a class happened to better suit what I had done with my car, I'd probably go for it. Though I'd rather be running R's, I'd rather switch tires than parts.

[fritZman]

You would consider me to be a casual R-Compound user? Just what justifies being called a hard-core guy? :confused: I won my class in the Regionals this year, and came second overall. I was one of 2 competitors who travelled to EVERY Regional event in 2006.

Just because I can make a set of R-Compounds last a year, it does not mean that I am an occasional user.

Easy there, I'm not commenting on your driving or commitment.

Maybe my terminology is poor, but if you've read my previous postings I stated a driver who runs on unshaved streets or 1 set of R compounds per season as 'casual'.

A hard core driver, in search of every tenth possible would typically run shaved streets, or if they were in another equally competitive class, two sets of R compounds. We're talking about every tenth here, not actual rubber consumption.

Making a cost comparison between a theoretical hard-core street user and casual R compound user is obviously not fair as they're two different competitive goals for their respective class. Don't confuse that with someone trying to run streets competitively in an R compound class. This example is about the cost of running in a separate street tire class for a driver with similar competitive goals to a driver in another class which allows R compounds.

I'm not here to convince the world that streets are the way to go, I'm only stating my personal experiences in terms of cost and level of competitiveness. I've Solo'd 4-5 years on streets (including an average of 10 MCO events per season which is a LOT of runs!) and easily used the same streets leading up to the late start of the next season. Contrary to BBQMan's observations, I've never heat cycled out a set of summer tires for that initial year. In fact, they've only gotten stickier. Maybe it's because I didn't shave then, or maybe it's because I didn't run an agressive alignment or put 30K+ of street driving on them. Maybe it's even driving technique. Either way I've experienced and accomplished a lot under both scenarios (MCO 'A' class championship in 2004 on unshaved Kuhmo MX, and again in 2006 using a single set of v710s).

[Marsh]

Easy there, I'm not commenting on your driving or commitment.

Maybe my terminology is poor, but if you've read my previous postings I stated a driver who runs on unshaved streets or 1 set of R compounds per season as 'casual'.

A hard core driver, in search of every tenth possible would typically run shaved streets, or if they were in another equally competitive class, two sets of R compounds. We're talking about every tenth here, not actual rubber consumption.

Making a cost comparison between a theoretical hard-core street user and casual R compound user is obviously not fair as they're two different competitive goals for their respective class. Don't confuse that with someone trying to run streets competitively in an R compound class. This example is about the cost of running in a separate street tire class for a driver with similar competitive goals to a driver in another class which allows R compounds.

I'm not here to convince the world that streets are the way to go, I'm only stating my personal experiences in terms of cost and level of competitiveness. I've Solo'd 4-5 years on streets (including an average of 10 MCO events per season which is a LOT of runs!) and easily used the same streets leading up to the late start of the next season. Contrary to BBQMan's observations, I've never heat cycled out a set of summer tires for that initial year. In fact, they've only gotten stickier. Maybe it's because I didn't shave then, or maybe it's because I didn't run an agressive alignment or put 30K+ of street driving on them. Maybe it's even driving technique. Either way I've experienced and accomplished a lot under both scenarios (MCO 'A' class championship in 2004 on unshaved Kuhmo MX, and again in 2006 using a single set of v710s).

OK I'm lost. You say you only run R-compounds to be competitive. Then you argue that you wouldn't go to the expense necessary to be competitive in a street tire class. If that's the case then why do you need a street tire class? Just run street tires now and don't bother trying to be competitive. If your taking it casually why bother with an expense your uncomfortable with?

[gatherer]

talk about beating a topic to death...

anyways I don't think you can classify a hardcore R-compound user as someone who has to use 2 sets of r-compounds in a season. so light cars only need one set (like Pete's Civic or my civic) I used my 710s from 2005 for the first 3 events in 2006, before they were done and needed replacement. I replaced them and the 2006 set I have looks almost brand new in my basement. based on the 2007 schedule if I decide to run it I could probably get the full season out of them and not have to buy another set.

Some cars, yes are heavy enough that one set will be well worn through teh steel belts if they don't get a second se. while for other cars the tires aren't killed by wear but by heat cycling them to death.

As for comparing a R-Compound competitor to a Street Tire Competitor if we had street tire classes... Well I think you will see varying degrees of Hardcoreness in all classes whether R-compound or street tire. it's just the nature of competitors, some put everything into this and some don't put everything into this, thats the nature fo the beast. doesn't matter if you have a street tire class or not.

If a Street Tire class or classes are created I think it's best not to modify a current class an alienate those competitors currently prepped in those clases, but instead create new classes. So for example, don't create a ruel in Stock that says No R-compound tires, but instead create STS and STX.

just my 2 cents again

[Guillermo]

I've Solo'd 4-5 years on streets (including an average of 10 MCO events per season which is a LOT of runs!)


No wonder you can get away using street tires for more a full season.
Some people who live near Toronto average 30+ autoslalom events per season :p

[fritZman]

OK I'm lost. You say you only run R-compounds to be competitive. Then you argue that you wouldn't go to the expense necessary to be competitive in a street tire class. If that's the case then why do you need a street tire class? Just run street tires now and don't bother trying to be competitive. If your taking it casually why bother with an expense your uncomfortable with?

While I do run R compounds to be competitive (started just in 2006 BTW), if I were in a street tire class I certainly wouldn't be running a shaved street tire. Instead, I'd simply purchase a top of the line tire like Azenis as a similar effort to being competitive.

If I needed to find a few more tenths in a street class, then I'd shave them. But similarily with R compounds, I'd mount a second set after 40 runs.

Honestly, having sponsorship it's not the expense I'm uncomfortable with, but instead it's the impracticality that R compounds have for improving skill and competiting on a level field. The added rush is nice, but not worth the hassle IMO. Once I achieve my Solo2 performance goals, I will eventually return to street tires. I feel it's a more efficient means to addressing my basic Solo2 goals, which is improving my driving skills.

To each their own eh? :cool:

[bbqman]

Should I be embarassed that my 2006 autoslalom effort went through 16 front and 4 rear tires:eek: , albeit most of the events were 3 drivers on the car......

When I hear that some people get a full season from 1 set of R compounds, i wonder what I could do with all that extra cash!

BTW, a FSAQ STX competitor that ran the same amount of events as I did in 2006, wore out 8 street tires on a ITR, the first set not even being shaved.

On believe it that all serious ST competitors will tell you that tehy go off after a certain number of events.

[JT_TT_DS]

Should I be embarassed that my 2006 autoslalom effort went through 16 front and 4 rear tires:eek: , albeit most of the events were 3 drivers on the car......

i had two drivers and i used up 8 tires V710's and they were all bought with 3/32's so they were already passed their optimum but i'd never run R-comps before this year so they were still grippier then anything i'd driven, and grippy enough to get 2nd at canadian nationals against a drunk Carl, and FTD of class on second day. we wore the tires right to the end of the two grooves but they definitly felt awkward at the end.

so yea those 8 tires we got ~32 4 run events.

[TOYSRUS]

You can't easily compare historical data into this argument as tire technology changes so quickly with "R" compounds. I have always considered myself to be a "hardcore" soloist but have never gone through tires like I did last season. 1 set of 710's & a set of Hoosiers not to mention running my streets for msot of our local events. Previously a set of "R's" have lasted me at least 2 full seasons.

Fritz- I don't know if Toyo has altered their RA1 much in the past few years but that was an excellent tire for your particular dilemma. I ran them on my Talon Turbo all for 2 seasons as my summer tire/race tire and still FTD'd most events I ran.

[wikdslo]

Let's face it.

Making a street tire class won't drop the level of competition very much to make it easier for novices, nor will it ease up the cost.

There are too many people out there that are able to invest a lot of money in this sport (i.e. fritzman) that if we did have a street tire class, people would still be spending just as much money on tires in either class. A few of you have said that you would run shaved street tires, which would, in effect, kind of defeat one of the main purposes of this propsed street tire class. (I'm not saying this is in any way wrong. It's the nature of all sports, and it's something that every person has to face if they want to get into it)

So, adding in this class, probably won't do much for our sport but reduce the number of cars per class that compete against each other.

[Slowpoke]

Let's face it.
So, adding in this class, probably won't do much for our sport but reduce the number of cars per class that compete against each other.

And in the case of some of the less filled classes like BSP, it might actually give us some more competition rather than less.

I didn't say that I was planning on shaving mine. Just buy one set of street/AutoX tires in the spring and that's it. Arrive and drive, man.

How about just putting it in the series because that's what people are asking for, rather than trying to argue people out of it?

[wikdslo]

How about just putting it in the series because that's what people are asking for, rather than trying to argue people out of it?

I don't think that everyone agrees with the idea.

That aside, people want a lot of things, and they can't just give people everything they ask for.

[gatherer]

I want to win the over all championship .. can we make that a rule please?

[finboy]

Only on heavier cars. Light weight cars, like civics and miatas, get much better wear out of 710's. I used my 710's for a solid 15 events or more in 2005 and still got 5 events out of them in 2006 (being competitive for 4 of them). Every event was 5 runs or more, so that's 100 runs or more from one set. They are also much more resistent to heat cycling than the victoracers were, in my experience. Although I must admit I only ran victoracers on my heavier Prelude which was also a glutten for tires. So the problem here is not that R's are expensive. They're expensive to keep you YOUR car.

not just on HIS car..

other external factors will also determine wear

eg. venue at Peterborough vs. St. Lac vs. Corel center

-condition of surface pavement
-type of surface pavement
-design of course (lots of heavy breaking, sharp turns)
-length of course
-1st or 2nd gear types of speeds
-alignment
-stock vs. modified suspension
-tire size and compound (manufacture)

etc etc...



the cheapest way to do solo II is run a slow ass car with zero torque
on a tiny lot in the rain

[finboy]

Sorry, but I don't agree with the argument that R-Compounds are significantly more expensive to run. In 2005, Hanif and I both ran the same car in Regionals. 10 events, 2 drivers. 1 set of 4 tires.

with a H stock car... but could you do that with a SP car??

or do the same in a stock Type R??

[finboy]

Let's face it.

Making a street tire class won't drop the level of competition very much to make it easier for novices, nor will it ease up the cost.

There are too many people out there that are able to invest a lot of money in this sport (i.e. fritzman) that if we did have a street tire class, people would still be spending just as much money on tires in either class. A few of you have said that you would run shaved street tires, which would, in effect, kind of defeat one of the main purposes of this propsed street tire class. (I'm not saying this is in any way wrong. It's the nature of all sports, and it's something that every person has to face if they want to get into it)

So, adding in this class, probably won't do much for our sport but reduce the number of cars per class that compete against each other.


everyone knows.. the person who can spend the most money.. always has a better chance in placing higher..

no arguement there..


Bringing back the street tire class, or bonus... will make things more close, more competitive

if people don't have a phat chance of being competitive regardless of how much $$ they simply won't show up

[CharlesK]

Hi Guys

Don't forget - most street tires are much noisier than R tires.

This can be an issue where a lot is closer to residences or active commercial areas. It wasn't that long ago that the Atlantic Sports Car Club lost a new lot because the sound annoyed the local Chief of Police.

While we can't outlaw them, as someone who has spent many many many hours trying secure event locations, I would love to see everyone on R compounds.

[Leanne]

Everyone knows.. the person who can spend the most money.. always has a better chance in placing higher.

No argument there.

Bringing back the street tire class, or bonus... will make things more close, more competitive

If people don't have a phat chance of being competitive regardless of how much $$ they simply won't show up.

Here, here!!! I'm proof.

When I first started in Solo 2 seven or eight years ago, there was a street tire bonus and, with some practice, I was competitive in my daily driver (a 1995 V-6 Mustang).

Since eliminating the street tire bonus several years ago, I no longer have a chance in hell of being competitive in my class even though I'm still driving the same car! Last season, I was regularly beat my 5 - 10 seconds by a car on R's.

Unless I shell out several hundred dollars on R-compounds or slicks, which I would then have to somehow stuff into my mint-condition backseat, there's no way for me to do well in what is supposed to be a "stock" class. I'm sorry but I can't see the point of spending all the time and money for five minutes of total seat time.

The whole point of Solo 2 was to provide a cheap, fun and competitive starting point for newbies. How can we possibly attract new people to the sport if they can't "run what ya brung" and be competitive. People don't play to lose, they play to win.

I no doubt will offend with this comment but....to those that want to spend a fortune and modify the rules to give you the greatest advantage over the other drivers, maybe it's time you move up to Solo 1 and leave Solo 2 for those wanting a simple and inexpensive hobby.

And how can anyone say that having R's provides no advantage over a car on a decent street tires? To me that was the statement made when the street tire bonus was eliminated several years ago. No other modification can provide the dramatic results that tires can.

Who wants to drive the distance and pay the entry fee for a guaranteed loss? Not me.

[bbqman]

I hope not offend you when I say that things have changed in street tire classes. The tires and car prepartion for one.

If people think that a street tire class will make them competitive, well they couldn't be further from the truth. Instead of being 5-10seconds behind the leaders, you may be 3-8 seconds in ST classes.

While autoslalom is a entry level sport, it is the competitive regulars that keep it alive. Every club has hotshoes that do not look out of place at a grassroots event.
Some like to excel at autocross, solosprint and regional racing!

[Leanne]

We must not forget that one day, those competitive regulars will "retire" to pursue other interests which is why it is important to constantly encourage rookies into the sport. And I would guess that the majority of those rookies would become competitive regulars if they had at least the "opportunity" to be competitive without investing hundreds of dollars into the sport their first time out.

I'm not saying that R's shouldn't be allowed but I don't think a tire that is 95% slick with a small thin groove down the centre and a tread wear rating of 50 should be allowed in a "stock" category. I'm sorry but if it's not legal on the street, it shouldn't be considered stock.

[JoeT]

We must not forget that one day, those competitive regulars will "retire" to pursue other interests which is why it is important to constantly encourage rookies into the sport. And I would guess that the majority of those rookies would become competitive regulars if they had at least the "opportunity" to be competitive without investing hundreds of dollars into the sport their first time out.

I'm not saying that R's shouldn't be allowed but I don't think a tire that is 95% slick with a small thin groove down the centre and a tread wear rating of 50 should be allowed in a "stock" category. I'm sorry but if it's not legal on the street, it shouldn't be considered stock.


Two thumbs up, "Best case I've read in this thread yet".

[Pete@Marcor]

with a H stock car... but could you do that with a SP car??

or do the same in a stock Type R??

What compete at that number of events? Sure, and I have. Or, in a GS or DS car? I might use more tires, but I don't see why it would change my involvement.

[finboy]

Here, here!!! I'm proof.

When I first started in Solo 2 seven or eight years ago, there was a street tire bonus and, with some practice, I was competitive in my daily driver (a 1995 V-6 Mustang).

Since eliminating the street tire bonus several years ago, I no longer have a chance in hell of being competitive in my class even though I'm still driving the same car! Last season, I was regularly beat my 5 - 10 seconds by a car on R's.

Unless I shell out several hundred dollars on R-compounds or slicks, which I would then have to somehow stuff into my mint-condition backseat, there's no way for me to do well in what is supposed to be a "stock" class. I'm sorry but I can't see the point of spending all the time and money for five minutes of total seat time.

The whole point of Solo 2 was to provide a cheap, fun and competitive starting point for newbies. How can we possibly attract new people to the sport if they can't "run what ya brung" and be competitive. People don't play to lose, they play to win.

I no doubt will offend with this comment but....to those that want to spend a fortune and modify the rules to give you the greatest advantage over the other drivers, maybe it's time you move up to Solo 1 and leave Solo 2 for those wanting a simple and inexpensive hobby.

And how can anyone say that having R's provides no advantage over a car on a decent street tires? To me that was the statement made when the street tire bonus was eliminated several years ago. No other modification can provide the dramatic results that tires can.

Who wants to drive the distance and pay the entry fee for a guaranteed loss? Not me.


LP you were one of the drivers that I noticed who stopped showing up

everyone knows that even with the street tire bonus.. they are still
an underdawg

but it GAVE them a chance to be S O M E W H A T competitve


1) spend the money to get in the game

2) leave the game



not really the two best choices iz they

[StewPiddass]

I tend to agree with Leanne.. somewhat.

I'm not sure a street tire class is specifically the way to go, but we sure have gotten away from having stock cars in the "stock" class. Everyone seems to be migrating there because it's their best chance to be competitive. Which is fair but that's also where most of the newbs come in and they're getting annhialated by our best drivers.

I for one would like to eliminate R's from "stock" classes.

[finboy]

Sorry, but I don't agree with the argument that R-Compounds are significantly more expensive to run. In 2005, Hanif and I both ran the same car in Regionals. 10 events, 2 drivers. 1 set of 4 tires.
.

this is what i was refering

the cost of tires/number of drivers vs. the type of vehicle you were running

anyone could get amazing mileage out of a lower classed vehicle...

i was asking if you could do the same.. share a ride do as many events in a type R or something in a higher class


my guess would be no



meaning... depending on your vehicle and type of class... R's CAN be significantly more expensive to run

[Pete@Marcor]

The whole point of Solo 2 was to provide a cheap, fun and competitive starting point for newbies. How can we possibly attract new people to the sport if they can't "run what ya brung" and be competitive. People don't play to lose, they play to win.

I no doubt will offend with this comment but....to those that want to spend a fortune and modify the rules to give you the greatest advantage over the other drivers, maybe it's time you move up to Solo 1 and leave Solo 2 for those wanting a simple and inexpensive hobby.

And how can anyone say that having R's provides no advantage over a car on a decent street tires? To me that was the statement made when the street tire bonus was eliminated several years ago. No other modification can provide the dramatic results that tires can.

Who wants to drive the distance and pay the entry fee for a guaranteed loss? Not me.

Please do not take offense at this, as I think that this is a rather healthy discussion for this sport.

Ok, so firstly, why is the point of Solo 2 to provide a cheap place for Newbies? Why is not meant to be a place for serious competitors a place to run, without going crazy in a budget? Have you looked at the US Solo scene?

I have done Solo 2, Solo 1, club racing, and Pro level road racing. While I agree that we need to always keep an eye on how expensive a sport is, we all need to realize that doing absolutely everything to keep costs down is not necessarily the way to do it. I have been involved in Solo for over 20 years, and whether or not we ran street tires, over 90% of the competitors have an extra set of wheels and tires. Even back when there were no R-Compounds. I will never compete on the set of tires that I drive to the event on. Competing on my street tires destroys them. So, I will buy a set of competition tires, and an extra set of wheels, and use them. It may be on street tires, and it may be on R-compounds, but the competition tires will always be optimized, meaning they will be the fastest tire I can find that are legal, and possibly shaved. How is that helping the new competitor?

I will never say that R-compounds do not offer an advantage. Actually, I will argue that they actually do. They are designed for competition, and actually will last longer under those conditions. There may be a larger expense for the heavier, more powerful, faster cars, (and faster drivers) because of wear, but in any example I have ever done myself, street tires turned out to be more expensive.

As an example, when I went road racing in the Firehawk series in the early 90's, we had to run a true street tire. I was in Touring, so we ran 60-series, all season Firestones. The tires cost us significantly more than an R-compound, but even if they had cost us the same, running an R-compound would have been cheaper, as we needed to constantly buy the all seasons, to make sure we had prime ones. The street tires went off, and did not like the abuse of the track. The next year, I went faster in the Regional series, and used less than half the number of tires.

[Pete@Marcor]

I'm not saying that R's shouldn't be allowed but I don't think a tire that is 95% slick with a small thin groove down the centre and a tread wear rating of 50 should be allowed in a "stock" category. I'm sorry but if it's not legal on the street, it shouldn't be considered stock.

The tire has a DOT code on the side of it. It conforms to what the Highway Traffic Act requires of a tire, in that it has measurable tread around its circumference in more than one groove.

One is allowed to drive R-compounds on the street. The law says so.

[finboy]

I tend to agree with Leanne.. somewhat.

I'm not sure a street tire class is specifically the way to go, but we sure have gotten away from having stock cars in the "stock" class. Everyone seems to be migrating there because it's their best chance to be competitive. Which is fair but that's also where most of the newbs come in and they're getting annhialated by our best drivers.

I for one would like to eliminate R's from "stock" classes.

I doubt that people are migrating there just because they have a better chance to get a 10 dollar trophy

if that's the case its brutal!!

I would assume, people are in stock classes more so for mainly BUDGET reasons


about eliminating R's from "stock" classes.....

its easier and more fair to give a street tire bonus for everyone across the board

then you basically have the concept runwhatyoubrung and still have a somewhat chance to be competitive

[finboy]

The tire has a DOT code on the side of it. It conforms to what the Highway Traffic Act requires of a tire, in that it has measurable tread around its circumference in more than one groove.

One is allowed to drive R-compounds on the street. The law says so.

most only meet the minimum requirement when brand new


at the same time, I believe that some manufactuers also say

"for competition or race purposes only"

[Pete@Marcor]

LP you were one of the drivers that I noticed who stopped showing up

everyone knows that even with the street tire bonus.. they are still
an underdawg

but it GAVE them a chance to be S O M E W H A T competitve


1) spend the money to get in the game

2) leave the game



not really the two best choices iz they

Ok, so what is the best answer? Give street tires a time bonus? If it is enough, I will run them. Not because they are cheaper. Not because they will last longer. Not because it gives me a better chance of being coming close to the class winner. Because it gives me a better chance to win.

Maybe we need to look at a set of street tire classes. Maybe there is a place where we need to tailor a class or a set of classes so that people feel that they can run their cars, without being forced into a set of modifications, and also we do not want to scare them off before they get interested.

ST classes in the US have some extra mods allowed, so that is why they have gained their following, in my opinion.

However, please do not insult my intelligence, by telling me that simply outlawing R-compounds in Stock will increase the class' competitiveness. The guys who have big budgets will still flex them. They will test the hot street tires, to decide which one is fastest. They will still have 2 or more sets of wheels. Those guys are always going to be the winners. That, and the guy who does anythign to win.

Re-introducing the street tire bonus is actually easiest, as one just needs to apply a factor to the people running street tires.

[JoeT]

I doubt that people are migrating there just because they have a better chance to get a 10 dollar trophy

if that's the case its brutal!!

I would assume, people are in stock classes more so for mainly BUDGET reasons


about eliminating R's from "stock" classes.....

its easier and more fair to give a street tire bonus for everyone across the board

then you basically have the concept runwhatyoubrung and still have a somewhat chance to be competitive

People migrate there because it's the easiest to win. Pax, take a look at PAX, it's been said once, and said many times before.

I'm with Tod, keep stock cars "Stock".

Pete:

NHTSA DOT certification is around the Carcass, not around the tread. Tires can be DOT certified but not "Street" legal since they don't meet the Void / Tread Ratio:


The D.O.T.'s homologation process consists of principal assessments of the maximum cargo capacity that can be supported by the tire and its classification as to its maximum velocity. Other series of tests that are considered to be the most important are

o Treadwear
o Traction
o Temperature


The Treadwear assessment classifies the tire based on the level of wear it incurs under certain controlled conditions on a designated test road. The classification is as follows:

>Higher than 100: Better
>100: Baseline
>Less than 100: Worse

Therefore, a tire with a classification of 200 would last twice as long as one with a classification of 100. The actual mileage would depend on conditions of use and could vary with driving habits, maintenance, road conditions and climate. However, tires that do not meet the minimum 100 level are not eligible for homologation.

The Traction assessment represents the tire's ability to come to a stop on wet pavement and is measured under controlled conditions on a designated asphalt surface. The classifications are as follows:

>A: Better
>B: Intermediate
>C: Acceptable

Tires that do not meet the minimum "C" level are not eligible for homologation.

The Temperature classification represents the tire's resistance to the generation of heat and is performed under controlled conditions in a laboratory. Constant high temperatures can cause the materials of the tire to decompose, and therefore shorten the life of the tire. By definition, the classification is based on the tire's ability to rapidly cool itself while operating in extreme conditions.
For example, in the middle of August, a normal tire that is carrying its maximum cargo and traveling at a constant speed of 200 km/hour (124 MPH) can easily reach 110 degrees Celsius (230 degrees Fahrenheit). It is crucial for the tire to be able to cool itself at the moment that the speed begins to slightly decrease. The temperature classification is as follows:

>A: Better
>B: Intermediate
>C: Acceptable

Federal law requires all tires to meet the minimum "C" level.




Breakdown of Homologation Code:

Sample: P 205/55ZR14

"P" Indicates that it is a tire for consumer use.
"205" Indicates the tire width in millimeters.
"55" Indicates the height of the tire. This number is actually a percentage of the
tire's width; in this case, it is 55%.
"Z" Indicates the velocity code: S = >112 MPH, H = 140 MPH, V = 149 MPH,
Z = >149 MPH.
"R" Simply means that the tire is radial.
"14" Indicates the diameter of the tire.

Also, "Rotation" will indicate that the tire is unidirectional and that it should be mounted on the side that arrow indicates. The arrow should be pointing towards the freight of the car and the wheel should turn in the correct direction for its appropriate use in the case of rain. "Tubeless" would simply means that the tire does not need an inner tube - most tires today are tubeless, but there are some that still require them.

[Pete@Marcor]

I would assume, people are in stock classes more so for mainly BUDGET reasons


about eliminating R's from "stock" classes.....

its easier and more fair to give a street tire bonus for everyone across the board

then you basically have the concept runwhatyoubrung and still have a somewhat chance to be competitive

I don't agree. (Surprised? :) Heh. ) At least not when it is concerning the budget. The way our rules are written, our current overall winner is determined by PAX. So, to have the best shot at winning overall, I compete in a Stock class car.

Pax is actually the fairest way, but that is just my opinion, and REALLY should be left for another discussion.

most only meet the minimum requirement when brand new

Just like a shaved street tire.

[Pete@Marcor]

Pete:

NHTSA DOT certification is around the Carcass, not around the tread. Tires can be DOT certified but not "Street" legal since they don't meet the Void / Tread Ratio:

Hmm. I have never heard of this before. I would totally agree with everything else written, but I do not see how it relates to the void/tread ratio.

I am looking in a couple of tire catalogues, and if the BFG Drag Radial passes the void/tread ratio, just how low is the ratio?

[finboy]

People migrate there because it's the easiest to win. Pax, take a look at PAX, it's been said once, and said many times before.



that's brutal.. i'm sadly surprised

Q: are there more newbies in stock classes or the ss or sp classes?

[gatherer]

jumping into this again....

anyone ever look at what a pain in the ass a street tire bonus is for the timing people?

(and the volenteers the run this sport)

half the time competitors forget to write down what tires they have. and on top of that I can just see the famous going to the timing tent to say "hey I decided to use R-Compounds for my last 2 runs." Now how is that dealt with the software doesn't allow for bonuses to be applied on a run to run basis. this means that either they get the bonus for the r-compound runs as well or they don't get the bonus at all.

First thing I think of when a street tire bonus is brought in is I'll run the street tires, if I'm not winning half way through the day witht he bonus I'll add grip and place the R-Compounds on. While I'm sure we can easily create a rule that says if you use R-Compounds for even just one run you lose the bonus, it creates a real tracking nightmare for the people running the timing equipment.

You want a class change part way through the day? no problem, thats easy, Spelt your name wrong? thats easy to fix as well. incorrect car number? that can be fixed easy... the software calculates the street tire bonuses in the scoring application (different from the timing application) and as such we can't change the scoring database on the fly, therefore all changes from Street tire bonus to R-Compounds have to be written down and worked out after the fact. This will delay making results offical (last year they were official within 30 minutes of the last posting.)

While I'm not doing any timing working this year I do see the headache involved for who ever is chief timer this year, if there is a street tire bonus.

of course this is just looking at it from a logistics point of view.

[finboy]

jumping into this again....

anyone ever look at what a pain in the ass a street tire bonus is for the timing people?

(and the volenteers the run this sport)



for a club event.. do what you want for scoring

for a regional type... it should be ideally as fair as possible



noo???

[13inches]

The easiest solution would be to add a new family (or families) with new pax factors for street tire classes, essentially doubling the number of classes we have now.

OH NOES! Not more classes!!!

:eek:

jumping into this again....

anyone ever look at what a pain in the ass a street tire bonus is for the timing people?

(and the volenteers the run this sport)

half the time competitors forget to write down what tires they have. and on top of that I can just see the famous going to the timing tent to say "hey I decided to use R-Compounds for my last 2 runs." Now how is that dealt with the software doesn't allow for bonuses to be applied on a run to run basis. this means that either they get the bonus for the r-compound runs as well or they don't get the bonus at all.

First thing I think of when a street tire bonus is brought in is I'll run the street tires, if I'm not winning half way through the day witht he bonus I'll add grip and place the R-Compounds on. While I'm sure we can easily create a rule that says if you use R-Compounds for even just one run you lose the bonus, it creates a real tracking nightmare for the people running the timing equipment.

You want a class change part way through the day? no problem, thats easy, Spelt your name wrong? thats easy to fix as well. incorrect car number? that can be fixed easy... the software calculates the street tire bonuses in the scoring application (different from the timing application) and as such we can't change the scoring database on the fly, therefore all changes from Street tire bonus to R-Compounds have to be written down and worked out after the fact. This will delay making results offical (last year they were official within 30 minutes of the last posting.)

While I'm not doing any timing working this year I do see the headache involved for who ever is chief timer this year, if there is a street tire bonus.

of course this is just looking at it from a logistics point of view.

[Doug Phillips]

Hopefully the 2007 rulebook will be out soon and the decision will be clarified.

Are we still waiting for the National rules? I thought they were planned for release some time ago. What is the delay? Is it manpower or is it deciding on what the rules will actually be?

[Tashko]

I don't understand why people keep discussing this.

Street tire classes will end up like SCCA street tire classes where people still spend money on shaving their tires and having another set of wheels.
Ban R's in stock class and you'll be comparing your times against shaved streets. Are you going to have a formula to calculate times based on tread-depth and treadwear rating so the playing field is even?

You won't be competitive either way if you don't invest in the sport/hobby. People even buy cars based on how they perform for stock class!

The low cost option is to show up to a club or regional, run, improve your skills and have a great time. You can then deduct 2s from your time for not running R's, another .3s for not having a rear sway bar or 0.8s for not having fancy dampers.

There will never be a resolution that everybody is happy with so just adopt a ruleset and keep it consistent for many years.

[Pete@Marcor]

for a club event.. do what you want for scoring

for a regional type... it should be ideally as fair as possible



noo???

Interesting thought. Since it would seem there is a huge push for some sort of dealing with a street tire in the highest level of Solo competiton, what do the clubs do in the club series to give their new competitors a chance to be competitive?

Dave, you are fairly high up in the organization of your club's series. What do they do to help out new competitors to be closer to the more established competitors?

Funny, as I see club series the place that people run to see if they like this, and see if they are competitive. Also, it is a practice and test venue. Then, people move to a Regional event because the level of prep and the level of competition is higher.

[Tashko]

that's brutal.. i'm sadly surprised

Q: are there more newbies in stock classes or the ss or sp classes?

That's a good question.

Don't most newbies have some non-stock legal changes like lowering springs, strut bars, ECU change, etc.?

I started in SP.

[Pete@Marcor]

The easiest solution would be to add a new family (or families) with new pax factors for street tire classes, essentially doubling the number of classes we have now.

OH NOES! Not more classes!!!

:eek:

Sure. We already have people complaining about the current PAX numbers. We at least have the history of SCCA competition, and a few years of competition.

We also have competitors complaining about the lack of competitors in a class. Would an extra set of classes help this?

I think that the Solo Director would welcome someone submitting a proposal to develop new classes and the appropriate PAX numbers.

Let's do it.

[JoeT]

Hmm. I have never heard of this before. I would totally agree with everything else written, but I do not see how it relates to the void/tread ratio.

I am looking in a couple of tire catalogues, and if the BFG Drag Radial passes the void/tread ratio, just how low is the ratio?

Don't look at the marketing manuals, read it right from the testers.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/UpgradeTire/Final/Index.html

The entire DOT certification process / changes are in there, if you care to read it. The point being, DOT has to do more with Carcass designs, and meeting strict criteria which will enable that carcass to be used as a street tire.

The other part of the equation is the regional aspect of "Legality" on the road.

Canadian version of "Motor Vehicle Tire Safety Regulation" (DOT). http://www.tc.gc.ca/acts-regulations/GENERAL/m/mvsa/regulations/mvts/schedules/mvtsriv.html

[Leanne]

All I'm saying is no super high performance tires in Stock classes. Give the people not interested in the hassle of transporting and changing tires for 5 MINUTES OF SEAT TIME somewhere to play, and more importantly, the chance to be competitive.

There are umpteen modified classes to choose from where one can spend all the money and time they want modifying their cars to be the next "Jeff Gordon". Can the stock classes not be left "stock" to satisfy all faucets of the racing public.

As much as I enjoy Solo 2, (when winning is actually an option...), it's parking lot racing with a $10 trophy for the winner. Why has it become necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on tires to have even a chance of placing near the top of your class?

Sorry for my pessimistic attitude. The Solo 2 community is, for the most part, an absolutely wonderful group of people who can make driving around a parking lot filled with pylons a total blast. I guess I'm just upset that something that was a relatively cheap, safe, fun and, at times, exhilerating way for me to spend a weekend has become alot less satisfying.

[13inches]

Sure. We already have people complaining about the current PAX numbers. We at least have the history of SCCA competition, and a few years of competition.

We also have competitors complaining about the lack of competitors in a class. Would an extra set of classes help this?

I think that the Solo Director would welcome someone submitting a proposal to develop new classes and the appropriate PAX numbers.

Let's do it.It would be pretty easy to develop a safe pax factor for a street tire version of each of our current classes. Even a blanket correction factor applied to all the classes would be a start. It would need to be conservative in the beginning, but at least it lays the foundation for future improvement while still opening the door to the idea.

As for the watering down of classes, well, this doesn't really apply since there is not much of a chance that someone on streets is going to be competitive against someone on Rs. Yes, I know there is data to contradict that statement, but those situations are exceptions to the rule. The bigger issue is if the proven competitors (who all run Rs) are going to jump ship to the street tire classes. I don't really see that happening as much as it has in the states.

[wikdslo]

I don't understand why people keep discussing this.

Street tire classes will end up like SCCA street tire classes where people still spend money on shaving their tires and having another set of wheels.

You won't be competitive either way if you don't invest in the sport/hobby. People even buy cars based on how they perform for stock class!

The low cost option is to show up to a club or regional, run, improve your skills and have a great time. You can then deduct 2s from your time for not running R's, another .3s for not having a rear sway bar or 0.8s for not having fancy dampers.

There will never be a resolution that everybody is happy with so just adopt a ruleset and keep it consistent for many years.

Let's face it.

Making a street tire class won't drop the level of competition very much to make it easier for novices, nor will it ease up the cost.

There are too many people out there that are able to invest a lot of money in this sport (i.e. fritzman) that if we did have a street tire class, people would still be spending just as much money on tires in either class. A few of you have said that you would run shaved street tires, which would, in effect, kind of defeat one of the main purposes of this propsed street tire class. (I'm not saying this is in any way wrong. It's the nature of all sports, and it's something that every person has to face if they want to get into it)

So, adding in this class, probably won't do much for our sport but reduce the number of cars per class that compete against each other.



And lastly, Pete, I don't mean to pick on you on this. I understand your point abot sharing a car, and also sharing the expenses, but for someone like myself, that is not really a good option for me. #1, if i drive a friends car and it breaks while I'm driving, I will have to front $$$ for a repair. Understandable, but what about if I don't have the money to pay for it?

If it's my car and it breaks, it stays broken until I can afford to fix it, and I deal with it.
If it's someone elses car, then I have no choice but to dish out the money to fix it.

Again, this becomes a money game. Those with money have lots of options, those without have fewer.

I am in no way complaining about this. I have no money, my car is not ever going to be competitive in it's class, I'm running on very old R-compound tires, but I love every second I get out there and don't even think twice about it.

I have fun, end of story.

[13inches]

As much as I enjoy Solo 2, (when winning is actually an option...), it's parking lot racing with a $10 trophy for the winner. Why has it become necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on tires to have even a chance of placing near the top of your class?


Try taking up fishing, photography, golf, mountain biking, skiing. Hobbies aren't cheap no matter which one you choose. Sure, you can fish with a stick, some string and a worm but odds are you'd rather have 20lb line, $50 lures and $400 carbon fibre poles.

As for solo2, it can be fun for cheap. I always like to use the "Birch" example. He runs a $500 car on an $800 set of tires for 2 or 3 years and cleans up at many club series. Exception to the rule, perhaps? But no one ever has a bigger smile on their face after an event......

[Leanne]

Try taking up fishing, photography, golf, mountain biking, skiing. Hobbies aren't cheap no matter which one you choose. Sure, you can fish with a stick, some string and a worm but odds are you'd rather have 20lb line, $50 lures and $400 carbon fibre poles.

As for solo2, it can be fun for cheap. I always like to use the "Birch" example. He runs a $500 car on an $800 set of tires for 2 or 3 years and cleans up at many club series. Exception to the rule, perhaps? But no one ever has a bigger smile on their face after an event......

Actually, I do fish, with a $20 rod and with a simple hook and worm. Most of the time, I catch enough fish to make it fun. Point is, even with cheap equipment, there's still always the "chance" that you can catch a fish! Not so with street tires in Solo 2.

As for golf, I do that to, with an mish-mash assortment of borrowed clubs and at the very least I get several hours of time on the course. The worse I am, the more "seat" time I get!

I also ice race. The cost of entry is $100 a weekend, plus prep costs, several sets of tires, gas, food, etc., etc. But I get lots of laps so I don't mind spending the money. I will not spend hundreds of dollars for 4 - 50 seconds sessions around the lot. Honestly, I think it's ludicrous.

I don't expect everyone to bend the rules for me so that I can win. All I'm saying is give people the chance to run what ya brung and finish better than last.

What I think is that we've lost sight of the fact that all this is for 5 minutes of seat time. Hardly a good return on the investment.

As for Mike Birch, awesome guy, always smiling and having a blast. Where is he now?

[Pete@Marcor]

All I'm saying is no super high performance tires in Stock classes. Give the people not interested in the hassle of transporting and changing tires for 5 MINUTES OF SEAT TIME somewhere to play, and more importantly, the chance to be competitive.

There are umpteen modified classes to choose from where one can spend all the money and time they want modifying their cars to be the next "Jeff Gordon". Can the stock classes not be left "stock" to satisfy all faucets of the racing public.

As much as I enjoy Solo 2, (when winning is actually an option...), it's parking lot racing with a $10 trophy for the winner. Why has it become necessary to spend hundreds of dollars on tires to have even a chance of placing near the top of your class?

Sorry for my pessimistic attitude. The Solo 2 community is, for the most part, an absolutely wonderful group of people who can make driving around a parking lot filled with pylons a total blast. I guess I'm just upset that something that was a relatively cheap, safe, fun and, at times, exhilerating way for me to spend a weekend has become alot less satisfying.

We cannot limit the tire choices to disallow what may or may not be called "high performance" tire. Maybe a street tire bonus is the answer, based upon a break of a tread wear number.

We cannot limit the car prep based upon budget.

[finboy]

We cannot limit the tire choices to disallow what may or may not be called "high performance" tire. Maybe a street tire bonus is the answer, based upon a break of a tread wear number.




just define "R tires" they were listed in a rule book once upon a time

[finboy]

over any modification....(forget about the human factor)

everyone knows that tires tires tires is what IS the difference


can someone remind us (actually me).. why the street tire bonus was removed anyhow??

wasn't it 2% or something like that just a few years ago??

[Pete@Marcor]

just define "R tires" they were listed in a rule book once upon a time

I personally think that using the 140 treadwear number (like the SCCA does) is probably a bit better. That way, when a new tire comes out, we do not have a waiting period for that tire to be eligble, or disallowed.

I do have a question about this whole discussion, btw. Why was this not brought up for discussion at the Solo workshop? Or, is this discussion going ahead, thinking that these things will be implemented for the 2008 season? Or the 2007 season?

Assuming the Solo Director agrees to implementing a street tire class or a street tire bonus, what do we do when it is utilized by less than, say 5% of the competitors? Do we drop it? I think that Street Tire classes have a better chance of long term use, but I am open to ideas.

[gatherer]

We cannot limit the car prep based upon budget.

I completely agree they have tried to do that on various different levels of motorsports just to find that by limiting the rules you have people spending more on R&D to get around the rules... budgets go up.

[finboy]

no kidding...

otherwise we'd be running a spec vehicle

[finboy]

I personally think that using the 140 treadwear number (like the SCCA does) is probably a bit better. That way, when a new tire comes out, we do not have a waiting period for that tire to be eligble, or disallowed.

I do have a question about this whole discussion, btw. Why was this not brought up for discussion at the Solo workshop? Or, is this discussion going ahead, thinking that these things will be implemented for the 2008 season? Or the 2007 season?

Assuming the Solo Director agrees to implementing a street tire class or a street tire bonus, what do we do when it is utilized by less than, say 5% of the competitors? Do we drop it? I think that Street Tire classes have a better chance of long term use, but I am open to ideas.


see post #1

[MazdaMatt]

Since i figured that 7 pages was not nearly enough discussion... a proposition of two choices:

Linear classing like solo1, more emphisis on handling than pow/weight, but R's are not free. (But Matt, what about the difference between big lots and small lots? Deal with it. Look at the DDT and the Mosport big track. Same rules, different people win, its a points race anyway, by the time you've hit all the tracks, the fastest people have the most points)

Adding a SINGLE street tire class for cars that otherwise fit into the current "stock class" that allows a couple points. For those of you with 5 thousand dollars worth of upgrades in your ECU, shocks, springs, wanker wings etc etc complaining that you don't get to play in the street tire class... well you should have bought tires before that other stuff, stupid.

Matt

(ignore this post if these ideas were previously mentioned)

[Leanne]

For those of you with 5 thousand dollars worth of upgrades in your ECU, shocks, springs, wanker wings etc etc complaining that you don't get to play in the street tire class... well you should have bought tires before that other stuff, stupid.

The whole point of a street tire bonus is to make those on street tires somewhat competitive and compareable. Almost like another PAX.

I think there must be a way to develop the rules so that it can't be taken total advantage of. If you have a ton of mods but you run street tires, points for those other mods should bump you into the next class anyway. And you run for the day on what you started on. No switching tires half way thru the day. People should be running the majority of the season on one or the other (R's or streets).

It's really a shame that because of people trying to take advantage, things have to get so complicated.

Why was the street tire bonus canned? I never really got the answer to that. The cynic in me would assume that someone running $1,000 R's got beat by a more skilled driver on 2 year old street tires.

[Marsh]

Why was the street tire bonus canned? I never really got the answer to that. The cynic in me would assume that someone running $1,000 R's got beat by a more skilled driver on 2 year old street tires.

No, to my knowledge nobody ever did really well with streets in the bonus system. I think I likely had the most success with it in my rookie year, but I could be wrong. Everybody knew that it was better to have R's and thus everyone eventually bought R's anyway. There weren't many people using streets and there was always a debate about changing the bonus percentage so eventually it was just canned. There was a similar debate to the one going on here, as I'm sure there was many years ago when the introduced it. As always the street tire BS was dropped due to lack of popularity.

BTW people, STS is popular not because of street tires, but because of the prep level it incorperates. STS is similar to our Super Stock, which the SCCA doesn't have. So people who want to run springs have a choice. Expensive naturally asperated SP built motor and fully gutted shell, or run STS and street tires. We have SS so we don't need STS.

[JT_TT_DS]

IN WINNIPEG....

we seperate all classes between R-compound and Street tires.

we have enough guys to have a good challange between the R guys, and a good competition between the street guys. people can get as intense as they want in whatever class they want. it seems to work very well for us. we have a fair number of hardcores that would drive nothing but R-compounds, and a fair number of pretty hardcore guys running street tires and doing their cars up for ST classes in the SCCA. giving a time bonus just seems pointless because nobody will ever be happy in my oppinion as the tires develop at different paces and it will still come down to having "the spec tire". i don't think it will ever make it into the national ruleset, but regional is where more of the street tire guys play anyways.


i personally would be spending more money buying the 265 yoko's then i will be on my 275 Hoosiers...so for me R-compounds are cheaper, more fun, look cooler, sound cooler, and give me more of an adrenalin rush at the end of the day...i ran one event on my MX's and i was bored 20 seconds into the run compareds to my 245 V710's. yea i was only 1.8 seconds back from winning the class against the R comp guys but it was flat out boring. i love the fact that my stock car can be as fast as alot of SP and Prepared cars all by buying a set of rims and some cool tires. now what's the harm in that!

ok i'm done :)

[finboy]

did a quick search and the only "official" reply i found was on this thread

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=9429&highlight=tire+bonus

post #11

The street tire bonus will never work again..... the line between very good street tires and r's has been blurred and the best street tires (the most expensive) are beater than some R compounds. Those with the most money win!
__________________
Wes Tanney
CASC-OR Solo 2 Director

[wikdslo]

Oh dear god....

[13inches]

The circle of life continues. We got rid of the ST bonus at a time when participation was up and all the fastest drivers were on Rs. Now......

[Leanne]

No, to my knowledge nobody ever did really well with streets in the bonus system. I think I likely had the most success with it in my rookie year, but I could be wrong. Everybody knew that it was better to have R's and thus everyone eventually bought R's anyway. There weren't many people using streets and there was always a debate about changing the bonus percentage so eventually it was just canned. There was a similar debate to the one going on here, as I'm sure there was many years ago when the introduced it. As always the street tire BS was dropped due to lack of popularity.

I managed to get several 2nd place trophies my first few years out (running on street tires with the bonus). Maybe it would have been 1st place with R's but at least I was in the neighbourhood. And if R's are so much better, what's the harm in leaving a street tire bonus in (if it's that irrelevent). It was exciting and it felt good to be challenging someone. Same driver, same car, I'm lucky if I manage 5th anymore, from my first run to last.

Hey guys, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away from those of you who want to buy every bolt on available, new tires every year and do every mod you can to make your car the fastest in the class or even FTD. But where does that leave those of us who just want to come out, have a little friendly competition and drive our cars home as is? Are our entry fees worth less somehow than everyone else's?

Surely, I can't be the only driver running street tires.

This is my hobby, not my career.

[Leanne]

Oh dear god....

LMAO - How true.

[JT_TT_DS]

Hey guys, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away from those of you who want to buy every bolt on available, new tires every year and do every mod you can to make your car the fastest in the class or even FTD. But where does that leave those of us who just want to come out, have a little friendly competition and drive our cars home as is? Are our entry fees worth less somehow than everyone else's?

Don't take this too personally, but a person like that isn't the kind of person that walks away with the big and prestigious $10 trophey every year.

if your going to just come out for fun then what does it matter what place you get against the R-compound guys. you'll find yourself a little group that your close to and have your own little battle mid way down the field. if you want to win and want it to be casual that would be having your cake and eating it too as the saying goes. if your serious your there to win if your there for fun and a cheap sport don't expect to win...

that being said i spent a frick load of money last year, and got second at canadian nationals, second in western canada regionals, and second in all of stock class for manitoba and first in DS in manitoba...i take it quite seriously, and if some street tire person can come and gets a bonus because they don't want to change their tires that would make me quite upset and frustrated...i did the casual show up thing and that was fun i was happy with that at the time because i was in school, but now i'm there to win and want competition to be showing the same times as me not to have to put an extra factor because of street tires want to race against the r-comp guys...

ok back to your regular programming...

[miataboi]

Sure. We already have people complaining about the current PAX numbers. We at least have the history of SCCA competition, and a few years of competition.



Not that I have much of a stake in this....
But just to state some facts...

We have CASC classes and prep levels...
And SCCA PAX #'s for all intensive purposes.

And the REAL reason that our stock classes do so well on PAX is NOT because "it's easier to prep a car to the limits in stock vs. SS or SP or MOD"... (but that is part of it...) but its because tires are the biggest factor in auto-x performance... and in Canada's stock classes (with SCCA pax's) we allow you to change the wheel size... which can allow for a massive tire footprint / contact patch change vs. the stock rim that came on your car originally (see your 14x5" wheels on the your hatch) or improve gearing MASSIVELY AND footprint by downsizing the diameter... AND increasing the treadwidth (see any 5-sp miata on 235 13's)

So are our PAX #'s really that meaningful? no.
Do guys in stock classes like it this way??? generally... yes.

To the best of my recollection... the street tire bonus was between 3 and 4%
(I THINK it was 4% but then got amended to 3%)

It was fine for the casual guy... but then the Azenis came out.. .and Steve Tong used them at a shootout one year and won on street tires with a correction factor... or something wanky like that (it was not the tires... he's won several times on R's too) but it gave people ammo to complain with.

To come to a definition of R's is easy... who cares...

Ontario and Canada aren't ready for pure SCCA classing / rulesets presently and instead sometimes pick and choose....

But if you want pure STS... go to Quebec... or just run a car here prepped to that level... and compare yourself with DS or GS cars... as they use the same pax more or less... and the good DS cars here (audi TT, MSP and Type R) are basically SCCA prepped cars anyhow.

Detroit isn't far away.

PAX is good for one thing... it serves as a GENERAL reference guide to gauge some performance... so prep a car to the prep level that your little heart desires... find guys locally that are driving similarly pax'd cars at a similar performance level of driving... and have fun with them... but if you want a class... you have to go where that class plays.

Auto-x is cheap to participate in....
...but WAY more costly to be competitive / win.

...can't have your cake and eat it too.

[miataboi]

Ok, if YOU say so!

None of these facts are correct! NONE!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

V-A-L-I-U-M.

[miataboi]

it WAS before my time... so why don't YOU correct the facts.

[miataboi]

wow - glad I quoted Wes before he deleted his post.

geez.

[soloZ]

if your going to just come out for fun then what does it matter what place you get against the R-compound guys.

actually it should be R compound people.

When I first start autocross in 2000 there was still a tire bonus and I think I had one event where I placed second out of three people in that class. I have run on street tires for a long time and I guess after the first year I just forgot about the bonus or something I don't know, I was having fun. This past season I baught a new car and well I didn't have R's for the 18" rims and just ran on the street tires and had fun running against some of the guys on R compounds and even winning an event(totally with the PAX systems help at the event) on my stock full tread street tires. After that I got some rims and picked up some used RA-1's and had one event with them on and really enjoyed my car more.

[Tashko]

Oh yeah, back to the topic that this thread was supposed to cover. I would say go with the treadwear rating as used in the SCCA regulations and their 140 cut-off.

Maybe another thread should be started regarding street tire classes, bonus %, etc. discussion as this has gone WAY off topic.

[bbqman]

Some still seem to miss the point...... if you think that a street tire bonus makes you all of a sudden competitive..... wrong..... it's all about car prep and driver prep.

JT says it right...if you take it casually, thats OK but expect nothing in awards, just friendly competition.
Miataboi- don't forget the rear bars....

No one seems to actually hear that here, in Quebec, we have a steet tire class and you know what...... the top 10 guys still spend as much money as R guys and the class is as competitive as another.

Mid pack people will stay mid pack people no matter what tires they buy.

OTOH, if we were to ban R compounds entirely from stock competition everywhere in North America, including the SCCA...I would be for it. Unfortuantely , it won't happen in the foreseeable(sp) future and since the trend setters are still south of the border ( with a very stable rulebook) I have my Hoosiers and Hankook already in my garage, ready for 2007!!!

[MastaDeeMon]

Some still seem to miss the point...... if you think that a street tire bonus makes you all of a sudden competitive..... wrong..... it's all about car prep and driver prep.

JT says it right...if you take it casually, thats OK but expect nothing in awards, just friendly competition.
Miataboi- don't forget the rear bars....

No one seems to actually hear that here, in Quebec, we have a steet tire class and you know what...... the top 10 guys still spend as much money as R guys and the class is as competitive as another.

Mid pack people will stay mid pack people no matter what tires they buy.

OTOH, if we were to ban R compounds entirely from stock competition everywhere in North America, including the SCCA...I would be for it. Unfortuantely , it won't happen in the foreseeable(sp) future and since the trend setters are still south of the border ( with a very stable rulebook) I have my Hoosiers and Hankook already in my garage, ready for 2007!!!

Agreed Carl, your first statement is bang-on.

And I hope your garage is heated...................

[tanney]

it WAS before my time... so why don't YOU correct the facts.Why let the facts get in the way of a good series bashing...... If you want to post crap that happened while you were still in diapers, go somewhere else please! If you really have an interest in the sport and THIS series, here are the facts;

The street tire bonus was 2% and was in place at least as long as the three years I ran the series while it was still used. It was removed, not because it was exploited by a competitor that found a good tire, it was removed by the former Solo 2 Director for the 2003 season as this series was supposed to be the best of the best in Ontario and race tires were being used by almost everyone (I was one of three people in the meeting where this was discussed and decided). There was also the issue that the timing software did not process the 2%, just the results software after the event was done and winners announced. At events when times were posted competitors had to calculate their street tire time, adding an entire other game to the sport and a lot more work for the timing people (which was done then by each club).

And as far as pax number discussions....... If you have suggestions, please forward them to me to look at. If you are posting just to create controversy, go to your club message forum and post all you want. The pax numbers used for 2007 will be based off of SCCA numbers but SCCA numbers will not be used.

Oh, and people drive stock classed cars for a number of different reasons..... Insurance, profiling by the authorities, comfort, and cost to name a few. And yes, some people here in Ontario, across the country and this continent will consider buying a car JUST to be competitive in stock classes. It boils down to reading the rule book and prepping your car accordingly. I hear whining from SP and Mod competitors complaining about PAX when their cars are not prepped to the max for the class they are in.

This grows oh so tiring........ again.

[TOYSRUS]

I hear whining from SP and Mod competitors complaining about PAX when their cars are not prepped to the max for the class they are in.



yeah......about the MOD pax factor........:D

[Leanne]

[QUOTE=bbqman;93873]Some still seem to miss the point...... if you think that a street tire bonus makes you all of a sudden competitive..... wrong..... it's all about car prep and driver prep.

Mid pack people will stay mid pack people no matter what tires they buy. QUOTE]

"car prep"....in stock? Isn't stock supposed to be "stock".
Like I said, there are umpteen modified classes to race in if you want to prep you're car all to hell. All I'm asking is for is a little place where non-obsessives can race and be competitive. Let's face it, losing is not as much fun as winning. I'm not looking to win the series, I'd gladly leave that for the hardcores, I just want to have a chance in my "stock" class.

"suddenly competitive, mid pack"
What if you already are a skilled driver with a decent car but because you don't have R's you have no chance in hell. Heck, maybe you could drive circles around the guy finishing first but because he's got better tires you lose. Like I said, I'm talking about stock classes only.

It always has been and (after being involved in this discussion) always will be.....he with the most money wins!

Sorry to having wasted everyone's time fighting for the little guy. I guess I will continue to pay my mortgage, contribute to my RRSP's and enjoy my paid off vehicle.....in 5th place. Heck, maybe I'll save myself the gas and entry fees too.

[Pete@Marcor]

[QUOTE=bbqman;93873]Some still seem to miss the point...... if you think that a street tire bonus makes you all of a sudden competitive..... wrong..... it's all about car prep and driver prep.

Mid pack people will stay mid pack people no matter what tires they buy. QUOTE]

"car prep"....in stock? Isn't stock supposed to be "stock".
Like I said, there are umpteen modified classes to race in if you want to prep you're car all to hell. All I'm asking is for is a little place where non-obsessives can race and be competitive. Let's face it, losing is not as much fun as winning. I'm not looking to win the series, I'd gladly leave that for the hardcores, I just want to have a chance in my "stock" class.

"suddenly competitive, mid pack"
What if you already are a skilled driver with a decent car but because you don't have R's you have no chance in hell. Heck, maybe you could drive circles around the guy finishing first but because he's got better tires you lose. Like I said, I'm talking about stock classes only.

It always has been and (after being involved in this discussion) always will be.....he with the most money wins!

Sorry to having wasted everyone's time fighting for the little guy. I guess I will continue to pay my mortgage, contribute to my RRSP's and enjoy my paid off vehicle.....in 5th place. Heck, maybe I'll save myself the gas and entry fees too.


Leanne, you make some very good points, some of which took a few minutes to actually sink in.:) You are not wasting anyone's time, as your opinions (as are everyone's) are valued.

However, you have to realize that the CASC-OR Regional Championship is the top level of Solo 2 motorsport in Ontario. It is expected, I think, that a casual "non-obsessive" competitor will populate the Club series. Then, when they get more serious, they migrate to the Regional series. As such, I think that the level of prep goes up, as does the level of seriousness among the competitors.

Stock is not un-prepared. There are a number of things that are allowed to be done to a Stock class car in our rules. The big things are shocks, alignments, tires (if you take the points), and exhausts.

[StewPiddass]

The problem Leanne is this; even if you succeed in banning R's from stock classes... you can't ban drivers.

If the PAX factors look attractive and our best drivers like Hanif and Tony McGrath decide that they want to compete in Stock then there is nothing anyone can do about it. They have just as much right to be there as the other guy. You may be giving R's too much credit. There's not a lot of occasions where someone might be way better than someone else but gets beaten because the other has better tires.

I would bet that there's quite a few drivers in our region who could run on snow tires against someone in an identically prepped car on Hoosiers and still embarrass them.

As far as "he with the most $" is concerned we quite often see people out there in $500 cars (or less) beating some of the best.

Even in my experience, running my Civic (which could be duplicated for 5-6k including the price of the car) against an unnamed rival with at least 5 times that much in car prep nevermind the cost of the car (5 times the horsepower too). His victory wasn't always assured... sometimes I beat him fair and square, sometimes he blew up.

[JoeT]

As far as "he with the most $" is concerned we quite often see people out there in $500 cars (or less) beating some of the best.

Even in my experience, running my Civic (which could be duplicated for 5-6k including the price of the car) against an unnamed rival with at least 5 times that much in car prep nevermind the cost of the car (5 times the horsepower too). His victory wasn't always assured... sometimes I beat him fair and square, sometimes he blew up.

Exactly! :D

Who might that be? :p

[Leanne]

[QUOTE=Leanne;93895]However, you have to realize that the CASC-OR Regional Championship is the top level of Solo 2 motorsport in Ontario. It is expected, I think, that a casual "non-obsessive" competitor will populate the Club series. Then, when they get more serious, they migrate to the Regional series. As such, I think that the level of prep goes up, as does the level of seriousness among the competitors.

Stock is not un-prepared. There are a number of things that are allowed to be done to a Stock class car in our rules. The big things are shocks, alignments, tires (if you take the points), and exhausts.

Peter - I do appreciate your comments, however.....

Top level of Solo 2? LOL
No offence intended but give me a break. Is that what the Tony Steward want-to-be's tell themselves? Most "high stakes" drivers would laugh in our faces when we told them we race around plyons in a parking lot for 60 seconds at a time. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fun and the people are great but, let get real.

The Regional Series is the ONLY level where by you can travel around and support the various clubs that are dedicated to motor sports all the while enjoying the landscape of this great province we live in. In my case, my club doesn't even have a club series.

And it's not like there are auditions based on skill level allowing only the cream of the crop into the Solo 2 Olympics. I came out my first year, in a chevette (HA!), and my entry fees were gladly accepted. And I WAS competitive in my Mustang when there was compensation to EQUALIZE the differences in tires.

Maybe the real answer then is to revise the rules to make "stock" alot closer to stock. Or at the very least, non-street legal tires should NOT be allowed. You want to get a performance tire that's better than a basic all-season okay but it's gotta have some sort of tread pattern. I'm sure a tread wear number can be decided upon. But slicks should not be allowed.

Let the flogging of the carcass continue.....

[brujack]

Leanne makes a good point and one that I have repeatedly asked--what is the Regional series about? Where is there a clear mission statement for the series. I know that Wes will chime in and say that there is one, but if most of the competitors and most of the people on this board do not know what it is and cannot support it, then it is not the mission statement. If the series is about attracting the best competitors--how is it targeting them? I know within the series there is a % of top competitors, a % of mid packers and a % of back packers. What the break out is currently, I am not sure, but I suspect it is somewhere 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3 distribution. What is the ideal for this series???

Since we cannot answer that basic question, the series and this board get into a fist fight on what the rules should be. The tire question is just another one in the long list of recent fist fights--to go along with # of events and PAX.

If the series is to target the top competitors then stock class will always be very competitive and probably the most expensive class--why you ask? In any class there is 1 or 2 cars that will dominate. You either own the right car or will ultimately lose. Over the years, the right car changes. Just look at SCCA C-Stock. Prior to 2006, the 99 miata was the car to own--for 2006 all of the top drivers converted to Pontiac Solstice. No Solistice no top 10 at the Nationals. For D-stock the two cars are Integra Type R and BMW 330i. Over the past 5 years the title has gone back and forth between those 2. All other cars are just not that competitive. The SCCA rules say that R compounds are allowed in Stock--we have generally followed their lead, but banning R-compounds in Stock will not allow people running run of the mill street tires to be competitive. If I were running in Stock without R compounds and in a competitive series you can bet that I would have a dedicated "street" tire and wheels for competing on. There would no difference in cost to me--its just a different tire to carry around.

In the end there will always be the right car and tire to be competitive in any class. All other cars and tires will be at a distinct disadvantage. This assumes that the drivers are equal, which of course is not even close to true.

These are just my opinions--what I can tell you is that going from a Stock class to a mod class has drastically cut my yearly costs for Solo II. My car can built for 5-6K and can be dragged around by a relatively cheap tow car and the bonus is that once sorted out will be FTD capable in this series or the local series. Some food for thought.

Bruce

[Pete@Marcor]

Peter - I do appreciate your comments, however.....

Top level of Solo 2? LOL
No offence intended but give me a break. Is that what the Tony Steward want-to-be's tell themselves? Most "high stakes" drivers would laugh in our faces when we told them we race around plyons in a parking lot for 60 seconds at a time. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fun and the people are great but, let get real.

The Regional Series is the ONLY level where by you can travel around and support the various clubs that are dedicated to motor sports all the while enjoying the landscape of this great province we live in. In my case, my club doesn't even have a club series.

And it's not like there are auditions based on skill level allowing only the cream of the crop into the Solo 2 Olympics. I came out my first year, in a chevette (HA!), and my entry fees were gladly accepted. And I WAS competitive in my Mustang when there was compensation to EQUALIZE the differences in tires.

Maybe the real answer then is to revise the rules to make "stock" alot closer to stock. Or at the very least, non-street legal tires should NOT be allowed. You want to get a performance tire that's better than a basic all-season okay but it's gotta have some sort of tread pattern. I'm sure a tread wear number can be decided upon. But slicks should not be allowed.

Let the flogging of the carcass continue.....

Um, ok.

Regardless of whether or not our sport is legitimate in other people's eyes is not why most of us do it. I still believe that the Regional Series is supposed to be the highest level of Solo 2 in Ontario. This is a sport that a lot of people take seriously in Canada and in the US. Just because it is fun, and a good way of relaxing on a Sunday is not the point.

As you say, the Regional series is the only level where we get to travel around. The club series in existence are the feeder series.

Leanne, your comments regarding going more stock in Stock is probably the first time I have heard this in the last 2 years. I have received a couple of comments about eliminating R-Compounds in Stock.

And, I have thought about the fact that maybe there is a need to accomodate a street tire rule of some sort. However, I don't really see how it will make the occasional or non-hardcore Solo competitor competitive. If there is a tire bonus that is enough to make that person competitive, what will it do to the hardcore guy? Why wouldn't the hardcore guy use STs to get a better result?

The worry about creating ST classes, and mirroring the SCCA classes is that if they are very popular, we will end up with 1/3 of the drivers in 4 classes, diluting the population in the others. If all of those competitors are new, then good.

I have talked it over with Wes a little, and the easiest for us is probably to create another set of classes that mirror the current classes, with a different PAx/factor for street tire use. So, there woudl be R-AS, S-AS, R-BS, S-BS, etc... Then, the 2 classes coudl theoretically be combined at teh end of the day. Our software cannot apply a factor to individual competitors, only to classes. But, I still question the number of competitors who will use this.

I think that for us as a sport in Ontario, if and when we ever move to SCCA classes would be the appropriate time to create the ST classes as a group.

[Leanne]

The problem Leanne is this; even if you succeed in banning R's from stock classes... you can't ban drivers.

I would have absolutely no problem getting beat by Tony McGrath! He's been doing this for longer than I've been alive and is CLEARLY a better driver than I. Isn't that what it should be about though? He/she with the better driving skills wins? Not he/she with the bigger tire budget wins. Once again.......at least not in "stock". You guys in the mod classes....if you want to spend $1500 on tires and extra rims for 5 minutes of seat time, by all mean, go ahead!

[13inches]

I have talked it over with Wes a little, and the easiest for us is probably to create another set of classes that mirror the current classes, with a different PAx/factor for street tire use. So, there woudl be R-AS, S-AS, R-BS, S-BS, etc... Then, the 2 classes coudl theoretically be combined at teh end of the day. Our software cannot apply a factor to individual competitors, only to classes. But, I still question the number of competitors who will use this.


For the first year, I would suggest simply adjusting each classes pax factor by the same amount for the street tire classes. Something like -0.010 would help gather data, but would pretty much ensure that there won't be a mass exodus to street tires in order to win overall.

Using that example (and the 2006 PAX factors), a DS ITR running 60s would have to run ~60.7s on streets to score the same on PAX. An adjustment of -0.015 would result in a street tire time of 61.1s

[finboy]

Leanne makes a good point and one that I have repeatedly asked--what is the Regional series about? Where is there a clear mission statement for the series. I know that Wes will chime in and say that there is one, but if most of the competitors and most of the people on this board do not know what it is and cannot support it, then it is not the mission statement. If the series is about attracting the best competitors--how is it targeting them? I know within the series there is a % of top competitors, a % of mid packers and a % of back packers. What the break out is currently, I am not sure, but I suspect it is somewhere 1/3, 1/3, and 1/3 distribution. What is the ideal for this series???
.

Bruce

from 2006

http://www.solo2.casc.on.ca/info/mission.php

Mission Statement
To build Solo II into a North American Class competitive skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind.

Hello Everyone,

As most of you are aware, these next two years, specifically this year, will be transition years for Solo II in Ontario. We are doing our best to make this organization the standard for Solo II for Canada. During this transition, we ask all members to allow extra patience as our favorite sport goes through the phases of growth. The changes are intended to reflect the growth of the Solo II community and the integration of a "National" standard for which we all participate in.

These are positive steps towards creating a medium where we can all enjoy the sport and to maximize the utility across the country by making things uniform. For people that travel, there will be no need to memorize specialized rule sets to conform, in my opinion, this is the best route to take, and it's the next logical step in the sport's evolution.

I am very excited to be part of this wonderful organization, and am looking forward to growing with the rest of the community. We're all in this together and the mission statement above is the basis of what we are managing against. We've listened to you and made changes to the rule book, we'll continue listening to you and will strive to make corrections as they come up. We're all in this together, so let's all work towards making this the best year ever.


Compete, make friends, grow the sport, and most of all enjoy the sport.

Wes Tanney
CASC-OR Solo II Director

[miataboi]

Why let the facts get in the way of a good series bashing...... If you want to post crap that happened while you were still in diapers, go somewhere else please!

And as far as pax number discussions....... If you have suggestions, please forward them to me to look at. If you are posting just to create controversy, go to your club message forum and post all you want. The pax numbers used for 2007 will be based off of SCCA numbers but SCCA numbers will not be used.

Oh, and people drive stock classed cars for a number of different reasons..... Insurance, profiling by the authorities, comfort, and cost to name a few. And yes, some people here in Ontario, across the country and this continent will consider buying a car JUST to be competitive in stock classes. It boils down to reading the rule book and prepping your car accordingly. I hear whining from SP and Mod competitors complaining about PAX when their cars are not prepped to the max for the class they are in.

This grows oh so tiring........ again.

Please tell me where I was "series bashing" in my post. I was just stating opinions about the threads' topics of discussion... much like many other people on here above.... but I seem to get attacked.

I was discussing PAX and street tires and competition in Ontario...

I don't get it. Why the venting on me?

[finboy]

Why let the facts get in the way of a good series bashing...... If you want to post crap that happened while you were still in diapers, go somewhere else please! If you really have an interest in the sport and THIS series, here are the facts;

The street tire bonus was 2% and was in place at least as long as the three years I ran the series while it was still used. It was removed, not because it was exploited by a competitor that found a good tire, it was removed by the former Solo 2 Director for the 2003 season as this series was supposed to be the best of the best in Ontario and race tires were being used by almost everyone (I was one of three people in the meeting where this was discussed and decided). There was also the issue that the timing software did not process the 2%, just the results software after the event was done and winners announced. At events when times were posted competitors had to calculate their street tire time, adding an entire other game to the sport and a lot more work for the timing people (which was done then by each club).

And as far as pax number discussions....... If you have suggestions, please forward them to me to look at. If you are posting just to create controversy, go to your club message forum and post all you want. The pax numbers used for 2007 will be based off of SCCA numbers but SCCA numbers will not be used.

Oh, and people drive stock classed cars for a number of different reasons..... Insurance, profiling by the authorities, comfort, and cost to name a few. And yes, some people here in Ontario, across the country and this continent will consider buying a car JUST to be competitive in stock classes. It boils down to reading the rule book and prepping your car accordingly. I hear whining from SP and Mod competitors complaining about PAX when their cars are not prepped to the max for the class they are in.

This grows oh so tiring........ again.

we're you referring to jeff's post #115???

[andrew1984]

a few good posts.

the rest of them are not surprising.

[finboy]

a few good posts.

the rest of them are not surprising.


good observation
good input

[brujack]

If the intent of the Regional Series is to attract the best Solo II people in the land, then why are we arguing over a street tire class/adjustment/banning R compounds? To me, this is why the series is in decline. No clear direction from members or leadership. You will not attract the best competitors to a series that divides the competitors up into 1 or 2 cars per class classes. You will not attract the best competitors to classes and events where "newbies" can be competitive in scoring. Run a stable set of rules for the intention of the series. There is a very large disconnect between the intention of the series and the rules. If you want to run street tires or other "un-competitive" setups then run in your local series. Yes this sounds harsh, but then again that is why there are local clubs--they do not always run the same rules and generally most of the competitors are not the cream of the crop. People have fun and that is what they are designed to promote.

The SCCA has been pretty successful running a stable set of rules. CASC is all over the place and CASC-OR is trying to attract both the cream of the crop and the newbies with its current rules and direction. If you have 2 targets you will miss both in the end. The first rule of business: define a single market and target it to success, otherwise, die a horrible death.

Bruce

[Leanne]

Mission Statement
To build Solo II into a North American Class competitive skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind.
These are positive steps towards creating a medium where we can all enjoy the sport
Compete, make friends, grow the sport, and most of all enjoy the sport.

I just wanted all to know that I'm not looking to change the rules so that I can win my class on street tires. I think the best driver should win. I'm looking for some positive changes that allow EVERYONE, including new additions to the sport, to come out, experience the thrill of competition (regardless of what their driving), meet some great new people and leave the stresses of the daily grind behind....without having to spend their grocery money to be the least bit competitive.

And Wes, I'm sure I echo the thoughts of everyone else on this panel when I say that this is in no way a reflection of how we feel about your job as Director. You and all those that help organize the sport do a fantastic job and without you, well, I guess we'd have alot less fun on Sundays and alot less to complain about. LOL :D

[tanney]

we're you referring to jeff's post #115??? Yes

[tanney]

And Wes, I'm sure I echo the thoughts of everyone else on this panel when I say that this is in no way a reflection of how we feel about your job as Director. You and all those that help organize the sport do a fantastic job and without you, well, I guess we'd have alot less fun on Sundays and alot less to complain about. LOL :D

Thanks Leanne. I have talked to both you and your father on many occasions about the series and some of these issues. There is no easy answer to any of this.

If the Director mandates something, some will be happy and some will complain. Unfortunately the complainers are the ones who ultimately get heard, because they complain, loudly!

Do we cater to the casual competitor or the seasoned serious competitor? No matter which, there will be unhappy people, such is life!

SCCA rules are not the answer, nor is rewriting the rule book to cater to 3 or 4 chronic complainers. People come and people go, the sport goes in cycles.

It's been fun!:)

[Leanne]

If the intent of the Regional Series is to attract the best Solo II people in the land, then why are we arguing over a street tire class/adjustment/banning R compounds? To me, this is why the series is in decline. No clear direction from members or leadership. You will not attract the best competitors to a series that divides the competitors up into 1 or 2 cars per class classes. You will not attract the best competitors to classes and events where "newbies" can be competitive in scoring. Run a stable set of rules for the intention of the series. There is a very large disconnect between the intention of the series and the rules. If you want to run street tires or other "un-competitive" setups then run in your local series. Yes this sounds harsh, but then again that is why there are local clubs--they do not always run the same rules and generally most of the competitors are not the cream of the crop. People have fun and that is what they are designed to promote.

The SCCA has been pretty successful running a stable set of rules. CASC is all over the place and CASC-OR is trying to attract both the cream of the crop and the newbies with its current rules and direction. If you have 2 targets you will miss both in the end. The first rule of business: define a single market and target it to success, otherwise, die a horrible death.

Bruce

"a competitive skills event"
"which we all participate in"
"positive steps towards creating a medium where we can ALL enjoy the sport"

I guess you must have skipped over the above key points in Wes's statement. Funny, I didn't see "the intent of the Regional Series is to attract the best Solo II people in the land" listed in the mission statement.

And like I said before, I personally think it's absolutely, positively insane to spend all that money on tires, rims, tow vehicles, etc., etc. for five minutes of seat time.

I will now bow out gracefully!

[andrew1984]

good observation
good input



sure.

if i come to the fight, i come with missles, not guns.

and right now i am on the bench, checkin out the cheerleaders.

[Tashko]

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself...

I don't understand why people keep discussing this.

Street tire classes will end up like SCCA street tire classes where people still spend money on shaving their tires and having another set of wheels.
Ban R's in stock class and you'll be comparing your times against shaved streets. Are you going to have a formula to calculate times based on tread-depth and treadwear rating so the playing field is even?

You won't be competitive either way if you don't invest in the sport/hobby. People even buy cars based on how they perform for stock class!

The low cost option is to show up to a club or regional, run, improve your skills and have a great time. You can then deduct 2s from your time for not running R's, another .3s for not having a rear sway bar or 0.8s for not having fancy dampers.

There will never be a resolution that everybody is happy with so just adopt a ruleset and keep it consistent for many years.

[Leanne]

Originally Posted by Tashko
I don't understand why people keep discussing this.

Street tire classes will end up like SCCA street tire classes where people still spend money on shaving their tires and having another set of wheels.

Ban R's in stock class and you'll be comparing your times against shaved streets. Are you going to have a formula to calculate times based on tread-depth and treadwear rating so the playing field is even?

You won't be competitive either way if you don't invest in the sport/hobby. People even buy cars based on how they perform for stock class!

There will never be a resolution that everybody is happy with so just adopt a ruleset and keep it consistent for many years.

Shaving tires?!?! I'm sorry but that concept sounds alot like "cheating" to me. That's my whole point. People should not be able to do things like that in a STOCK class. Once again, do whatever the hell you like in the M, SP, SS classes. Infact....."Super Stock".....doesn't that sound like the class for someone who wants to do a few mods and run slicks?

You did get one thing right.....there will never be a ruleset that everyone is happy with.

From the Solo 2 intro page on CASC:

Solo II, also known as “AutoSlalom” or “Autocross”, is a low-cost "grassroots" motorsport discipline that allows almost anyone to enjoy the thrill of automotive competition in a safe, controlled, and legal environment.

Legal disclaimer: Unless you buy special tires, you will never actually experience the thrill of "competition".

If you want to learn more about your car’s handling, improve your driving skills, or get involved in competitive motorsport, then Solo II is a great place to start. You don't need to make a big commitment of money or time, just come out and join the fun.

Legal disclaimer: Unless of course you want to win, then you'll have to invest $1000+.

From the Solo 1 intro page on CASC:

For those of you new to this whole “Solo” thing, the racing is split into two categories: SoloSprint and AutoSlalom, formerly known as Solo 1 and Solo 2 respectively. The major difference between them is SoloSprint race at road courses like Mosport, Toronto Motorsport Park and Shannonville, while you can find AutoSlalom at your neighbourhood parking lot. Of course, in SoloSprint you could easily hit 160 km/h at Shannonville with the right car, but you’d be lucky to get out of second gear at an AutoSlalom event.

Legal disclaimer: Solo 2 is minor stuff but don't tell any of the serious competitors that. Really, it's actually a stepping stone to riches, fame and world domination.

I guess my final thoughts are, there are lots of forms of racing in which big money can be spent to be the top dog. Instead of "graduating" to one of these higher forms of racing, I feel like Solo 2 has been highjacked. They don't think they can cut it playing with the big boys so they try to take over the minor leagues so they can continue to be the king of something.

It used to be a simple, fun and competitive (for everyone). In recent years, because of rule bending, it's become virtually impossible for someone to "run what ya brung", be competitive and actually have fun as a result.

K, I'm done venting...really.

[Tashko]

Shaving tires?!?! I'm sorry but that concept sounds alot like "cheating" to me. That's my whole point. People should not be able to do things like that in a STOCK class. Once again, do whatever the hell you like in the M, SP, SS classes. Infact....."Super Stock".....doesn't that sound like the class for someone who wants to do a few mods and run slicks?

You did get one thing right.....there will never be a ruleset that everyone is happy with.

K, I'm done venting...really.

Unfortunately you can't stop people from shaving their street tires to compete. There's no way to police a tire that has been worn down to 4/32" vs. one that was shaved last week.

Life would be alot easier if everybody just agreed that you aren't going to win or be in the top three without some cash outlay even in stock class.
Those that accept it will have fun battling for position with their nearest competitor and those that want to battle for the "podium" will spend the cash. Those that don't accept it will have to find another sport (well, at least club events). It's simple really.
<bad analogy> I don't try play basket ball if I'm 5'0" and then ask for a rule to limit the height of other players or make the 3pt mark different for me because my arms are short/weak. </bad analogy>

If all the people decide not to do it and regionals disappear I'll go to local club events, MCO, Quebec and SCCA events where people seem to be more sane about choosing to do a sport and accepting the rules that are established.

I give up on this thread also. I'll just drive.

Oh yeah, back to the thread topic. My vote is for the 140 treadwear rule as used by SCCA if a distinction needs to be made.

<back to your regularly scheduled off-topic discussion>

[Pete@Marcor]

Shaving tires?!?! I'm sorry but that concept sounds alot like "cheating" to me. That's my whole point. People should not be able to do things like that in a STOCK class. Once again, do whatever the hell you like in the M, SP, SS classes. Infact....."Super Stock".....doesn't that sound like the class for someone who wants to do a few mods and run slicks?



Ok, not to be difficult, but how on EARTH are you going to police it? We cannot make a rule that cannot be enforced. "I just wore the tires down."


You did get one thing right.....there will never be a ruleset that everyone is happy with.

I guess my final thoughts are, there are lots of forms of racing in which big money can be spent to be the top dog. Instead of "graduating" to one of these higher forms of racing, I feel like Solo 2 has been highjacked. They don't think they can cut it playing with the big boys so they try to take over the minor leagues so they can continue to be the king of something.

It used to be a simple, fun and competitive (for everyone). In recent years, because of rule bending, it's become virtually impossible for someone to "run what ya brung", be competitive and actually have fun as a result.

K, I'm done venting...really.

I have been competing in Solo since 1983. R-Compound tires were just being introduced. Before that, people had a second set of wheels with the best street tires available mounted up, to use just for competition.

This is COMPETITION. Winning is more fun than losing. If there were no point or gratification to winning, why would we keep time? We could all just drive around the course, to show what we could do. We would become a sport of.. oh yeah - DRIFTING. Or ice skating. But, this is a sport where things are quantifiable. The fastest person wins. So, what happens is people who want to win more will do more to get there.

We have a rule book to make sure that all of us are playing on a field that we know. At that point, the more serious among us will do what they feel is necessary to win.

Some people think that simply driving an hour is too much for 5 minutes of seat time. Some are willing to drive for hours, spend lots of money on car prep, and buy 3 sets of tires per year. Each person has to decide what is right. If you want silly, look at the prep in the US.

We have 2 choices here. Look into giving street tire competitors a 2% or so break to be "more competitive", or use the SCCA's street tire classes. That is what the choices are for this year.

However, if we implement one of these choices, and no-one uses them, what should we do for 2008? Try the other, or let people realize that the majority of Solo competitors in Ontario want to use R-Compounds?

[Cliff96]

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to myself...

I don't understand why people keep discussing this.

You won't be competitive either way if you don't invest in the sport/hobby. People even buy cars based on how they perform for stock class!

The low cost option is to show up to a club or regional, run, improve your skills and have a great time. You can then deduct 2s from your time for not running R's, another .3s for not having a rear sway bar or 0.8s for not having fancy dampers.

I'm listening and agree with you completely (just don't post that often :) ).

A couple of points, not everyone will be able to compete for top of the class, it has a lot to do with the choices people make including experience/(practice/schools?), car selection, preparation level, equipment selection, alignments, tires, time, available funding.

All of these factors are involved in determining how competitive anyone will be in any given rule set. Unfortunately I think it is unrealistic to expect that the rules will create a level playing field for everyone (unless we want even more classes), as people have different priorities/choices/circumstances/luck.

This years nationals was a great example of this, I'm not prepared to change my vehicle (it's not class competitive when a competent driver is driving lets say a Mini S, or the new civic si) and because of this I was well out of the class lead, but competed regardless because I knew it would be fun, it was fun. I enjoyed comparing my times with the best of the best that showed up, and I would enter again in a heartbeat.

When you look at the total cost of competing (not necessarily winning) autoslalom is very reasonable compared to other forms of motorsports (you need a regular drivers license, a car that is roadworthy, and ~$40). Walking up off the street and signing up isn't going to guarantee that you have a chance of winning, but you will learn more about your car, improve as a driver and have fun. Is this not what the sport is supposed to be about?

[Lafora]

Ok, not to be difficult, but how on EARTH are you going to police it? We cannot make a rule that cannot be enforced. "I just wore the tires down."


make it spec tires

on RE92s :D

[J.C.]

Removing R compounds also equates to removing grip. When you force choices like this onto people certain cars are penalised much more heavily than others. Just look at what happens when it is wet out and grip is lowered.

[TOYSRUS]

Shaving tires?!?! I'm sorry but that concept sounds alot like "cheating" to me. That's my whole point. People should not be able to do things like that in a STOCK class. Once again, do whatever the hell you like in the M, SP, SS classes. Infact....."Super Stock".....doesn't that sound like the class for someone who wants to do a few mods and run slicks?

You did get one thing right.....there will never be a ruleset that everyone is happy with.

From the Solo 2 intro page on CASC:

Solo II, also known as “AutoSlalom” or “Autocross”, is a low-cost "grassroots" motorsport discipline that allows almost anyone to enjoy the thrill of automotive competition in a safe, controlled, and legal environment.

Legal disclaimer: Unless you buy special tires, you will never actually experience the thrill of "competition".

If you want to learn more about your car’s handling, improve your driving skills, or get involved in competitive motorsport, then Solo II is a great place to start. You don't need to make a big commitment of money or time, just come out and join the fun.

Legal disclaimer: Unless of course you want to win, then you'll have to invest $1000+.

From the Solo 1 intro page on CASC:

For those of you new to this whole “Solo” thing, the racing is split into two categories: SoloSprint and AutoSlalom, formerly known as Solo 1 and Solo 2 respectively. The major difference between them is SoloSprint race at road courses like Mosport, Toronto Motorsport Park and Shannonville, while you can find AutoSlalom at your neighbourhood parking lot. Of course, in SoloSprint you could easily hit 160 km/h at Shannonville with the right car, but you’d be lucky to get out of second gear at an AutoSlalom event.

Legal disclaimer: Solo 2 is minor stuff but don't tell any of the serious competitors that. Really, it's actually a stepping stone to riches, fame and world domination.

I guess my final thoughts are, there are lots of forms of racing in which big money can be spent to be the top dog. Instead of "graduating" to one of these higher forms of racing, I feel like Solo 2 has been highjacked. They don't think they can cut it playing with the big boys so they try to take over the minor leagues so they can continue to be the king of something.

Solo 2 has not been highjacked Leanne, it is what it always has been - a competitive form of motorsport, with various levels of competition and seriousness to suit most everyones needs. Instead of insulting and trivializing those that take it seriously, perhaps you should play in the shallow end of the pool where you can touch bottom:rolleyes:

Signed: One of the minor league Kings

[JT_TT_DS]

ok i just don't understand this competition thing that is being complained about.

i've always been under the understanding that if your racing you'll find your competition. just like the mid pack isn't competition for the front runners, the front runners aren't the competition for the mid pack.

i spent two years clawing up points on azenis and crappy aftermarket springs in my DSS class. in our class i never ever won DSS against the R-compound guys, however us street guys (about 8 of us) got together and had our own set of results with only street tire and we had a HUGE battle going on. there was always friendly smack talk going around and then we'd help eachother out and go for rides with the others. we were the tightest group of friends at autocross. it was composed of many different cars. MSP, Civic Sir's, my Jetta, Celica's, BMW's. we knew we would never beat the R-comp guys, but nobody could EVER say there wasn't competiton. often the top 3 of us street guys were within a quarter of a second of eachother, and the others pretty close behind, but we never cared where the R-comp guys where because well we just didn't care.

sometimes it's not about winning it's about having fun and finding a group of friends where you fit in and can have friendly competion. where your not worried about buying tires that had a manufacturing date of last week and have to revalve your koni's every winter and are buying new oem springs just so that you get that extra couple lbs of strength just so you can sleep at night.

i'm from winnipeg so i don't have any push on what you guys have for rules. however nobody has can knocked us for not encouraging new people and finding a place for them. we have a rookie championship to encourage competition between first year participants, and this last year we had our first rookie on R's (that caused alot of grief, now it's a rule that to compete for the rookie of the year award you have to run streets)

i've mentioned how we split things up in our club, but maybe take a look how we have it arranged and maybe it would work at local levels and not regionals, however it works for WCMA regionals, and is excelent for our club (http://www.wpg-autox.org/results.php?id=66)

[finboy]

Interesting thought. Since it would seem there is a huge push for some sort of dealing with a street tire in the highest level of Solo competiton, what do the clubs do in the club series to give their new competitors a chance to be competitive?

I don't believe any club does anything special to give newbies a chance to be competitive over the next driver...

most clubs run very few classes, and focus on fun and keeping it simple...
fair isn't the objective.. FUN is!!

IF anything they get a N for newbie/novice beside their car number so if they get spanked.....there's an out "i'm a newbie don't laugh too hard I'll get you next time!!"


look at a few clubs HADA, PITL, COMP vette, they keep it simple and it works
for keeping people involved, heck even twin lakes does classes near the end of the day.. its that casual


Dave, you are fairly high up in the organization of your club's series. What do they do to help out new competitors to be closer to the more established competitors?

NOTHING...

it all depends who you hang with....

eg. look at SPDA they probably have the best overall performance scores as a group because they share, help, aid each other, in the QUICKEST/SHORTEST time..so the newbie learning curve is that much quicker

Hada is probably the next club behind them....



Funny, as I see club series the place that people run to see if they like this, and see if they are competitive.

i think that's a fair assumption.. but at the same time

BECAUSE tires are the single most important item with equipment
there should be allowances for street tires for the highest most fair level of competition



Also, it is a practice and test venue. Then, people move to a Regional event because the level of prep and the level of competition is higher.

in a perfect world.. that would be awesome..but its not the case
look at the clubs and see if their hotshoes (on streets or R's) are running the regional events

i don't think so.. (but i think that might be addressed with the shortend schedule it will take a few years to see if the change is good or not)

people have different expectations for club events
http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=6693

-for fun
-test and tune
-social reasons
-develop as a driver.. before attacking regionals
etc





but the drivers expectations for regionals should be the same:

to be able to particpate in a North American Class competitive skills event

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=9476



if that means theres a zillion classes with a zillion unpopulated classes... so be it


filling classes shouldn't be an issue with the Regional Organizers (clubs manage that at their club events)

getting people out should be the focus

[finboy]

ok i just don't understand this competition thing that is being complained about.

i've always been under the understanding that if your racing you'll find your competition. just like the mid pack isn't competition for the front runners, the front runners aren't the competition for the mid pack.

i spent two years clawing up points on azenis and crappy aftermarket springs in my DSS class. in our class i never ever won DSS against the R-compound guys, however us street guys (about 8 of us) got together and had our own set of results with only street tire and we had a HUGE battle going on. there was always friendly smack talk going around and then we'd help eachother out and go for rides with the others. we were the tightest group of friends at autocross. it was composed of many different cars. MSP, Civic Sir's, my Jetta, Celica's, BMW's. we knew we would never beat the R-comp guys, but nobody could EVER say there wasn't competiton. often the top 3 of us street guys were within a quarter of a second of eachother, and the others pretty close behind, but we never cared where the R-comp guys where because well we just didn't care.

sometimes it's not about winning it's about having fun and finding a group of friends where you fit in and can have friendly competion. where your not worried about buying tires that had a manufacturing date of last week and have to revalve your koni's every winter and are buying new oem springs just so that you get that extra couple lbs of strength just so you can sleep at night.

i'm from winnipeg so i don't have any push on what you guys have for rules. however nobody has can knocked us for not encouraging new people and finding a place for them. we have a rookie championship to encourage competition between first year participants, and this last year we had our first rookie on R's (that caused alot of grief, now it's a rule that to compete for the rookie of the year award you have to run streets)

i've mentioned how we split things up in our club, but maybe take a look how we have it arranged and maybe it would work at local levels and not regionals, however it works for WCMA regionals, and is excelent for our club (http://www.wpg-autox.org/results.php?id=66)



so your club events are also your regional events and viseaversa??

[JT_TT_DS]

so your club events are also your regional events and viseaversa??

well the regionals are split up between clubs.

edmonton, calgary, regina, saskatoon, and winnipeg all have their own event that make up the wcma regional championship.


8. In addition to the regular car classes outlined in the WCMA Solo Event Regulations (i.e. the Canadian
Autoslalom Championship car classes), 3 additional Street Tire classes will be added for the series:
a. Stock Street Tire (ST)
b. Super Stock Street Tire (SST)
c. Street Prepared Street Tire (SPT)
Competitors running on street tires (treadware rating >= 140), will automatically be eligible for this
additional class. Each class will be based on PAX times amongst all eligible competitors at each
event within each category (Stock, SS, SP). Point calculations and number of awards will be the same
as outlined above for the regular classes. Competitors must complete all runs in all WCMA Series


that's how they run the regional series (by pax for 3 extra trophies) (http://wcma.ca/2006%20Solo/2006_WCMA_Autoslalom_Standings.pdf)

our club sup.regs. splits EVERY body between street and R-compound. slightly different approach, but alot less complaints :)

[Pete@Marcor]

I don't believe any club does anything special to give newbies a chance to be competitive over the next driver...

most clubs run very few classes, and focus on fun and keeping it simple...
fair isn't the objective.. FUN is!!

Ok, so basically our Clubs' Series', (which some people seem to think that they are more successful than the Regional Series) do NOTHING to help a casual competitor be competitive against the people who prep their cars more? But, when one moves to a less fun series (the Regionals), we want that series to provide a way that less than 5% of the competitors can be closer to the serious people?

And, this is to make the Regional series more populated?

I am trying to get my head around this, as it seems a little contradictory, that is all.



if that means theres a zillion classes with a zillion unpopulated classes... so be it


filling classes shouldn't be an issue with the Regional Organizers (clubs manage that at their club events)

getting people out should be the focus

Gee, I cannot imagine any complaints arising from this. No-one will have someone to compare to, and no trophies would get awarded, if the rules were so disjointed that there were 80 competitors in 60 classes.

Also, I do often hear how poor the Region is at attracting competitors, and the example is that "See, our club series..." which has been explained to me that they keep it simple, with few classes, and that is the reason that they have population.

I am fully prepared to rationally discuss the possibility of creating a place for Street Tires to be used, and I will start a thread to that effect. It honestly goes against what I feel as a competitor, but in my new role, I need to be politically correct, and take into account what all competitors want.

[finboy]

Ok, so basically our Clubs' Series', (which some people seem to think that they are more successful than the Regional Series) do NOTHING to help a casual competitor be competitive against the people who prep their cars more? But, when one moves to a less fun series (the Regionals), we want that series to provide a way that less than 5% of the competitors can be closer to the serious people?

(if i read that correctly)

YES.. most of the people who attend club events couldn't care less about the regional series (also they're not aware about it as well..

Joe/Jill Newbie gets started.. finds one event.. starts talking to others.. then finds out you could basically do an event every weekend....WOW!!!) but thats another issue...


And, this is to make the Regional series more populated?

*if* the classes, car prep, pax is done "as fair as possible" perhaps
more newbies will be interested in Regional events in the near future (as well as keeping the current and bringing back "old timers" as well)

cause recently.. Regional events made it so it wasn't newbie friendly.. even though there's a newbie championship award

yes you want the best of the best coming out.. but you still need newbies to keep the sport alive



Gee, I cannot imagine any complaints arising from this. No-one will have someone to compare to, and no trophies would get awarded, if the rules were so disjointed that there were 80 competitors in 60 classes.

Regional events should provide a classing for all vehicles.. regardless
if its a popular group to be in or not 8 classes or 80 classes
(it all depends on the attendance)

the club events look after keeping classes populated (most will gauge their success/improvement with the top person in their class at each event regardless of car prep)


Also, I do often hear how poor the Region is at attracting competitors, and the example is that "See, our club series..." which has been explained to me that they keep it simple, with few classes, and that is the reason that they have population.

nope.. its more than just keeping it simple to attract people

Regional series:
1) there are more things to do for an individual to do to get involved with the regionals (open house, rule books, prep point schedule)

2) travelling schedule and distance

3) cost involved to run (score for championship points or title) regional events vs. just your local club event

4) Club costs.. cheaper than running regionally (necessary evil)

5) advertising? promotion of events??

6) the venues.. how many went to the PTBO event?

7) number of events needed to go to score minimum points

8) protests.. timely or not?? the process.. does it work?

etc




I am fully prepared to rationally discuss the possibility of creating a place for Street Tires to be used, and I will start a thread to that effect. It honestly goes against what I feel as a competitor, but in my new role, I need to be politically correct, and take into account what all competitors want.

look at the regional series mission statement...
personally i don't think the series is what it's supposed to be..

just look at the attendance at last years National event as well as the Regional series

last year.. if there was a choice between going to a club event or a regional

who and how many went where???

[MazdaMatt]

Quote: all previous pages

Who cares? Its autocross. Go run your car around the cones. Its fun.

I have never won in my class. I have never not had fun.

[finboy]

Quote: all previous pages

Who cares? Its autocross. Go run your car around the cones. Its fun.

I have never won in my class. I have never not had fun.



club events = " i have fun competing..."

regional events = "compete to have fun...."

[StewPiddass]

This really is a pickle isn't it?!?

We (TLMC) tried changing our classes a couple of years ago and, not that it was bad, but we have switched back. That's the joy of club events, it's up to each club's executive to come up with a system, as simple or complicated as you want. But we do expect more from the regionals, everyone wants a class where they could, conceivably be competitive. But we need to make sure we're asking why we want the changes we propose. The cost simply isn't gonna cut it, that's just the way any form of racing is, there's always someone willing to commit more time, money or resources. You can try to do what you want to curb it but unless you run a spec everything (even then it's difficult) it won't happen.

We had this same argument when people started using V710 and Hoosiers. I didn't want to buy them either but I had 2 choices, get them or don't be competitive in the regional series against some of the best drivers in the province. If I didn't have the means I'd just have to find my own competition further down the rungs.

Like Matt says, if you're there for fun it doesn't matter, we all have a learning curve. If you're there to win, you need to do what it takes.

[tanney]

Yep, I typically always asked for feed back on topics like this with some detachment. In other words, take a step back and look at the big picture.

To be blunt, the organizers couldn't give a s*** about "you" and "your issues". The organziers look at what is good for the sport as a whole.

Bitch sessions are counter productive and all they do is get everyone up in arms and then productive discussions turn to personal attacks, like what has happened in this thread.

Is a street tire bonus going to help the sport as a whole? Unlikely, but maybe. Will ST classes? Maybe as it gives the "street tuner" crowd someplace to play. But as always, will the "street tuner" crowd come out if ST classes are offered? Maybe, and what happens when they get their asses handed to them by the "pros" in their first event? They run away with their tails between their legs crying that the system is unfair.......

There probably isn't a correct answer, but one thing is for sure..... If I was a newbie thinking about getting involved and read the crap in this (and others) thread, I wouldn't come out. I would go to some industrial park in Woodbridge and have fun, illegally, with my friends.

[shrug]

[SE-R Racer]

You know, if the people that posted in this thread took the time they spent posting and got a second job instead...they could afford to be competitive....:D
The people who are competitive, are competitive because they will do what it takes to win. If you are out for fun, don't complain that you are not competitive. Otherwise, buy the proper equipment to compete, learn how to be competitive, and go out and drive your ass off. It doesn't work both ways.
As Pete's signature says: Cheap, fast, reliable..pick two
Change that to: Cheap, competitive, fun...pick one

[soloZ]

I would go to some industrial park in Woodbridge and have fun, illegally, with my friends.

[shrug]


Now I know why I could never get a hold of you on MSN !! :eek: :p J/K :p

[finboy]

This really is a pickle isn't it?!?

We (TLMC) tried changing our classes a couple of years ago and, not that it was bad, but we have switched back. That's the joy of club events, it's up to each club's executive to come up with a system, as simple or complicated as you want. But we do expect more from the regionals, everyone wants a class where they could, conceivably be competitive. But we need to make sure we're asking why we want the changes we propose. The cost simply isn't gonna cut it, that's just the way any form of racing is, there's always someone willing to commit more time, money or resources.

the regionals does look at mod as a mod (thats the way it has to be)

and not how much money was spent on the mod or the quality of product

eg. buying springs (apc, OBX, Proshit, ERS, H&R etc)




We had this same argument when people started using V710 and Hoosiers. I didn't want to buy them either but I had 2 choices, get them or don't be competitive in the regional series against some of the best drivers in the province. If I didn't have the means I'd just have to find my own competition further down the rungs.

Like Matt says, if you're there for fun it doesn't matter, we all have a learning curve. If you're there to win, you need to do what it takes.


its also up to the manufactures to produce a product thats competive as the nextguy

but right now.. its only Kumho and Hoosier that seems to be "in the game"



take out kumho V710 and any hoosier autocross tire

and you might have a closer manufacture battle with
Kumho V700 esta or vicoracers vs. Toyo RA-1 vs. Yoko A032 vs. etc


the boat gets rocked everytime a tire manufacture comes out with a killer product

[finboy]

Yep, I typically always asked for feed back on topics like this with some detachment. In other words, take a step back and look at the big picture.

To be blunt, the organizers couldn't give a s*** about "you" and "your issues". The organziers look at what is good for the sport as a whole.

Bitch sessions are counter productive and all they do is get everyone up in arms and then productive discussions turn to personal attacks, like what has happened in this thread.

Is a street tire bonus going to help the sport as a whole? Unlikely, but maybe. Will ST classes? Maybe as it gives the "street tuner" crowd someplace to play. But as always, will the "street tuner" crowd come out if ST classes are offered? Maybe, and what happens when they get their asses handed to them by the "pros" in their first event? They run away with their tails between their legs crying that the system is unfair.......

There probably isn't a correct answer, but one thing is for sure..... If I was a newbie thinking about getting involved and read the crap in this (and others) thread, I wouldn't come out. I would go to some industrial park in Woodbridge and have fun, illegally, with my friends.

[shrug]

the director or an official should have two sign on names

a) to post as an official

b) to post like the next regular shmuck

that's cool if the organizers couldn't care less about individual issues..
but at the same time, is the issue just an individual one? or is it something
that could affect the series as a whole?


if no one cared.. there'd be zero bitching.. and everyone would leave their head stuck in the sand and make like everything is perfect

so you get a few people who post their opinion.. big deal
until the forums are changed, and a "members only" section is created....
nothing will change

i know there was a workshop at the end of the season..

but was there a comittee meeting or any review process after the season to
see what worked and didn't work?

[JoeT]

Sorry to drag this topic up again, but an easy definition of R compound has been determined by the Highway Traffic Act in Ontario, as mentioned earlier in this tread, DOT does not mean legal on the road, it just means, the Carcass can be used in this country.

DOT Cert is a federal designation, while "Legality" is regional. So an easy way to determine according to the document below, is if we consider any tire marked "Competition Use Only" as an "R" compound.

But the question remains, do all tire manufacturers list their competiton tires as "competition only"?


Taken from: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/900625_e.htm

The items below help in determining items which directly affects us.


3. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a tire shall not be worn to the extent that in any two adjacent major grooves at three equally spaced intervals around the circumference of the tire,

(a) the tread wear indicators contact the road; or

(b) less than 1.5 millimetres of tread depth remains. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 3 (1).

(2) A front tire on a motor vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,500 kilograms shall not be worn to the extent that less than three millimetres of tread depth remains in any two adjacent major grooves at three equally spaced intervals around the circumference of the tire. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 3 (2).

(3) For the purposes of subsections (1) and (2), siping on a tire, other than a tire forming part of a dual tire set on an urban transit bus, does not constitute tread. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 3 (3).

(4) Where the tread pattern on a tire is of such a design that no major grooves are present, the tread depth shall be determined by measurements at the locations designated by the tire manufacturer for this purpose at three equally spaced intervals around the circumference of the tire. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 3 (4).[/'b]

4. (1) Tires shall be installed on a vehicle so as to avoid,

(a) a mixture of construction types consisting of radial ply tires on the front and bias ply or belted bias ply tires on the rear;

(b) a mixture consisting of 50 or 60 aspect ratio tires on the front with any aspect ratio of tires other than 50 or 60 aspect ratio, on the rear;

(c) a combination of construction types or sizes of tires on an axle, except where such types or sizes are equivalent by tire industry standards; or

(d) contact between tires in a dual set or a difference in overall diameter between tires in a dual set of more than thirteen millimetres or a difference in circumference of more than forty-one millimetres. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 4 (1).

(2) Clause (1) (a) does not apply to tires fitted on a vehicle with dual rear tires. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 4 (2).

(3) Clause (1) (c) does not apply to a temporary use spare tire, specified by a vehicle manufacturer as suitable for emergency use, if not more than one temporary use spare tire is installed on a vehicle. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 4 (3).

5. A tire fitted on a vehicle shall not,

[b](a) be of a smaller size than the vehicle manufacturer’s specified minimum size; or

(b) contact any vehicle component so as to affect the safe operation of the vehicle. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 5.

6. A tire shall not be installed on a motor vehicle or trailer that bears,

(a) the words “not for highway use”, “farm use only” or “competition circuit use only”;

(b) the letters “SL”, “NHS” or “TG” after the tire designation; or

(c) any other wording or lettering indicating that the tire was not designed for highway use. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 6.

7. (1) No person shall operate on a highway a motor vehicle, trailer, device or apparatus equipped with tires that,

(a) bear the words “not for highway use”, “farm use only” or “competition circuit use only”;

(b) bear the letters “SL”, “NHS” or “TG” after the tire designation;

(c) bear any other wording or lettering indicating that the tire was not designed for highway use; or

(d) were not manufactured to comply with the standards prescribed under the Motor Vehicle Tire Safety Act (Canada) and the regulations made thereunder as they existed on the 28th day of February, 1985. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 625, s. 7 (1).

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an off-road vehicle being operated under Ontario Regulation 316/03 (“Operation of Off-Road Vehicles on Highways”) made under the Highway Traffic Act or under subsection 2 (2) of the Off-Road Vehicles Act. O. Reg. 318/03, s. 1.

[13inches]

Why make a rule if its not easily enforceable? We have a hard enough time getting volunteers, and now they have to be experts on OEM tire sizes, specs, DOT testing processes etc etc?

Treadwear 140 works well in the SCCA....no reason we should adopt anything different.

[JoeT]

Why make a rule if its not easily enforceable? We have a hard enough time getting volunteers, and now they have to be experts on OEM tire sizes, specs, DOT testing processes etc etc?

Treadwear 140 works well in the SCCA....no reason we should adopt anything different.

Easy to enforce, if all they need to do is read "For Competition Use" only... If a tire says that, it's considered R comps.

That's the point, make it simple.

[gatherer]

interesting find Joe.

I'd have to agree that that looks like a very easy way to tell R-compounds from Non-R-compounds (based on the HTA).

But the question is do all R-Compounds have that stamped on the side? I'm sure V710s and the "uber" tires do, but I wonder about the close to street tires like the RA1s and A032rs. I'll have a look at my set of A032rs when I get home and see if it's stamped on the side.

[JoeT]

RA-1's absolutely have it stamped on the side of the tire.

Confirmed: "Compeition Use, marked on sidewall"
V710
RA-1,
Hoosiers
Nitto NT-01

Now the rest remains...

Anyone with the following tires confirm please:
A032
A048
Avon Tech RA
Hankook Z214 (I think)
V70a
V700

interesting find Joe.

I'd have to agree that that looks like a very easy way to tell R-compounds from Non-R-compounds (based on the HTA).

But the question is do all R-Compounds have that stamped on the side? I'm sure V710s and the "uber" tires do, but I wonder about the close to street tires like the RA1s and A032rs. I'll have a look at my set of A032rs when I get home and see if it's stamped on the side.

[fritZman]

I can confirm that Nitto NT-01 also have a recommendation for competition use written on the sidewall. ;)

[Travis]

Easy to enforce, if all they need to do is read "For Competition Use" only... If a tire says that, it's considered R comps.

That's the point, make it simple.

That would work for about 1 year. The following year, several companies would simply remove that wording in order to increase sales. Somone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's likely that they are required to have that wording on the tire by law. They probably only put it on to reduce the risk of liability, a risk which would be overcome by increased sales.

[Pete@Marcor]

RA-1's absolutely have it stamped on the side of the tire.

Confirmed: "Compeition Use, marked on sidewall"
V710
RA-1,
Hoosiers
Nitto NT-01

Now the rest remains...

Anyone with the following tires confirm please:
A032
A048
Avon Tech RA
Hankook Z214 (I think)
V70a
V700

The problem may arise that older or, possibly unreleased tires may exclude the wording "Not for highway use", or similar wording. We would need to exclude the tires that had that wording on it, as well as any other possible sets of words. Then, a creative manufacturer may "accidentally" forget to put those on the sidewall. The treadwear number is more likely to be an accurate gauge of the tire's intended use.

Also, when a tire is flipped on a wheel compared to its normal orientation, those words may not appear on the outside any more.

The 140 treadwear number is much more enforceable.

I still have not found any references to the void to space references, btw Joe.

[JoeT]

I still have not found any references to the void to space references, btw Joe.

Believe it or not, I've been searching too, and so far, there have been references to lots of E-laws sites for our government, but the sites are not the easiest to navigate.

The email I got from one of our members that work for Transport Canada basically says:


From a federal regulatory point of view, there are no requirements for minimum void/tread ratio. Such a "standard" would come under provincial jurisdiction since they are responsible for on-road use of vehicles. I have looked briefly on the Ontario site but did not find anything pertinent. You might also look at sites like tirerack.com for information. If you have a particular make of tire in mind, you might also check directly with the tire manufacturer. I hope this little bit of information helps.


So, I've located lots of HTA Entries, and am looking further into the actual "law" verbage.

Oh, don't let me stop you from doing some research.. :D

[runwhatyabrung]

There is no "Competition Use, marked on sidewall" for A048 , couldn't find it anywhere, looked on both sides and on the sticker stuck on the thread.

[Pete@Marcor]

There is no "Competition Use, marked on sidewall" for A048 , couldn't find it anywhere, looked on both sides and on the sticker stuck on the thread.

I would have been shocked if there were, actually. After thinking about this for a little bit, the A048 is the OE tire on a Lotus Elise with the Track Package option. FACTORY tire.:)

[JoeT]

There is no "Competition Use, marked on sidewall" for A048 , couldn't find it anywhere, looked on both sides and on the sticker stuck on the thread.

Oh well, that scraps that idea... It was a good one while it lasted.. I think I'll go mark "140" Special Compound on my V710's... LOL (Just Kidding)

[Doug Phillips]

My Hoosier A6 rubber is marked as 150, but it is in crayon. Is that OK?:p

[Greg F]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/types/comp.jsp

[AcidGord]

I just checked my Yoko A032R Softs and no mention of competition use. It DOES say 'For Sporty Drive' if you consider that to be some engrish equivalent. :)

Now some (myself included) would argue that the A032 is barely an R-compound of course. (Whatever an R-Compound really is)