PDA

View Full Version : Solo 1 Classification Poll


Dave
11-12-2002, 02:44 PM
Below is an e-mail I have recently sent out to everyone on the Solo 1 listserve. If, for whatever reason, you did not receive this e-mail but you'd like to respond to the poll, please read over the options below and e-mail me your feedback at dpratte4@cogeco.ca Thanks!

____________________________________________________
To All Solo 1 Competitors:

Based on the results of the Solo 1 Competitor Survey as well as the car classification proposals and feedback received at the annual Solo Workshop, we are requesting that you review the four classification options presented below and give us your feedback as to their implementability for the 2003 season. Please send your feedback directly to dpratte4@cogeco.ca (please do not spam the entire Solo 1 listserve) so that we can determine what the majority of Solo 1 competitors prefer for 2003 and beyond.

For those of you who were unable to attend the Workshop, I am attempting to have the results of the Competitor Survey posted to the soloontario.com website.

OPTIONS:

1. Make no changes to the current system.

2. Minor changes to the existing system. This could include such adjustments as moving Pony Cars to B-family and/or moving a few of the very high index cars like the new M3 to 'Super Car' group in A-family. Another proposed adjustment to the current system is to start very high index cars (ie. 'super cars') at the SS1 or SP level or have them move from A1 to SP so that they can no longer proposition SS1 (making this a more viable class for A2 and A3 cars to compete in).
PROS: we maintain strong continuity with the existing system and prevent most competitors from having to go back to the drawing board to develop a competitive car. We also maintain a prep point schedule which received very positive feedback on the competitor survey.
CONS: we have a large number of disadvantaged cars in the so-called "bottomless pits" of A3, B3 and C3, which have too wide an indexed performance gap from top to bottom thus rendering the bottom 2/3rds of cars in these classes uncompetitive.

3. A two-family system based on an engine displacement split (adjusting for forced induction and rotary engines). Other methods of collapsing the existing 3 families into 2 were discussed (simply merging A & B; using a driveline split), but the displacement break idea received the strongest support due to the fact that it's based on a performance variable that is strongly associated with performance potential and creates two families with less performance spread from top to bottom. A displacement split of 2.8 litres could be used since this would create roughly equal sized families and is the the cut-off used in many other series such as the Speed Channel World Challenge (SWC) (creating their Touring and GT groups).
PROS: a reduction in the total number of classes (something the survey results indicated as a strong competitor preference), a compression of performance potential within each family since they are limited by displacement, and a potentially valuable design link (possibly making the series more marketable) to existing series like the SWC and the new ontario Touring Car Challenge series. The current prep point system would remain largely unchanged as well.
CONS: there will still be large "bottomless pits" at the lowest root class level in each family and there will still be wide performance potential gaps from top to bottom in each class (making it difficult for low index cars to have a competitive class to run in). Additionally, this system represents a fairly major departure from the existing system and therefore disrupts the continuity of the series.

4. A straight index system, where all cars are put in one of 12 root classes based solely on their performance index score (calculated using curb weight, horsepower, torque and suspension rating). This system would use a "step up" approach to dealing with car prep, where X number of prep points spent would "step" you up into the root class above your initial one. For example, if an Acura Integra LS starts in class 8 (out of 12 root classes) and makes 4 prep points worth of modifications it moves up to class 7 to compete against other 4 point cars that started in class 7 as well as completely stock cars that start in class 7 (say an Integra GSR) as well as more heavily modified cars that started in classes 9, 10, 11 or 12.
PROS: fewer total classes, a more competitive starting class for all cars (eliminates the "bottomless pit" problem) and the potential to compete against a wide variety of cars with different levels of modification depending on their starting root class. It also does away with the problematic notion of "families" or "types" of cars and the perceived need to group these together somehow.
CONS: the potential challenges of developing a fair and accurate prep point system that recognizes that different types of cars react differently to various types of modification. For example, starting a V8 powered LS1 Camaro and a 4 cylinder Integra Type R in the same root class presents some challenges, since the Camaro will be able to make considerably more power with the same number of prep points invested in engine modification. This
system also represents a major departure from the existing system and therefore disrupts the continuity of the series.
____________________________________________________

The description of each option is by no means exhaustive, but rather my best attempt to summarize each of them fairly. I have tried to list the basic PROS and CONS of each, but I'm sure each of you could add to these lists based on your own perspectives and experiences. Feel free to do so here, though I'd prefer not to clutter up people's e-mail inboxes with a lot of listserve discussion. This forum would be a better place to do that, thus this post :)

If anyone would like a more detailed description of the 4 options above, just say the word and I'll do my best to get you whatever additional info I can.

Enjoy and play nice!

Dave

Brent
11-12-2002, 04:42 PM
What are the PROS and CONS of option number one

1. Make no changes to the current system.

Dave
11-12-2002, 04:47 PM
good question, Brent. You tell me :)

Obviously one of the PROS would be the continuity of the series is maintained, so that nobody has to reinvent their car. It also preserves the idea that similar types of cars should compete in the same family, which is a concept with merit IMO.

One of the obvious CONS are some of the imbalances within A- and B-family which are happening b/c of the presence of very high index cars like the M3 and Z06. There's also the bottomless pit issue to consider.

I should also point out that Option 3 should really read "effective displacement" rather than just plan displacement. Effective displacement takes into consideration forced induction and rotary engines, which is an important issue.

In terms of option 4, I received some e-mail feedback from Eric critiquing the straight indexing idea which is certainly worth reading. I'll leave it up to Eric to post his thoughts since I'm not sure if he'd want to expand on what he e-mailed me.

Cheers,
Dave

turboawd
11-13-2002, 09:44 AM
Option 3, based on displacement has me concerned. As a 2.0 stock turbo car (3200lbs) already in BSP, where would that but me and Adam (2.4L) and any othe turbo car? Obviously in the higher catagory and if we are already in SP, that would but us up against Z06s, 600hp F bodies, new M3....etc. I think a much more detailed outline of each proposal is required in order to get positive feedback. How many classes in each, where do current cars fit in Option 3...etc. You may end up with even more unhappy drivers.

As far as Option 4, Linear, you stated;

"CONS: the potential challenges of developing a fair and accurate prep point system that recognizes that different types of cars react differently to various types of modification. For example, starting a V8 powered LS1 Camaro and a 4 cylinder Integra Type R in the same root class presents some challenges, since the Camaro will be able to make considerably more power with the same number of prep points invested in engine modification. This
system also represents a major departure from the existing system and therefore disrupts the continuity of the series."

We already have some of this in the current system in regards to forced induction and exhaust systems as they are assessed more points for the same mods. Prep points for engine modifications may require seperate scales for forced induction, N/A and displacement considerations. Other mods could be similar scaled across the field.

Other PROS of the linear system not mentioned are a) It gives the individual more options as far tuning up or down. It will but each car in a more competitive class b) Using a spreadsheet and macros, it will be very easy to set-up and modify the class system to determine the optimimum number of classes and point jumps as well as modify PIs. This can be done after the open house when there is a good idea of the number and type of cars and then the optimimum class set up can be established. Yes, I am suggesting that it can be tweaked each season if required.

Bottomless pits must be avoided for the good of the series.

Dave
11-13-2002, 01:10 PM
Nino, under option 3 if a 2.8 litre effective displacement cut-off was used, your Talon would be right at 2.8L so you'd stay in the lower class but Adam's car would unfortunately end up in the higher class with Z06's and such. But hey, Adam talks so much smack about beating the V8's this would be his chance to back it up! ;)

But you're right, more detail would allow people to give us more feedback. If you'd like I'll send you some Excel spreadsheets that break these systems down further. Let me know your address if you want them.

The poll was really designed to simply get a sense of which system competitors like best from a conceptual standpoint.

Dave Barker
11-13-2002, 10:22 PM
AS far as the arguement about different benefits for different modifications in different cars, i.e. engine mods in a Camaro vs a Type R. If they both start in the same root class due to similar stock PI then the Camaro owner may choose to do head and cam work which will work well , give him more power and move him up one or two classes on that basis alone . If the Type R owner were stupid enough to attempt the same mods and , as expected, got minimal to no gain in perforamance then he too would move up one or two classes and be at a serious disadvantage . OTOH even I , a die hard RWD fan , think that most drivers ( sorry Adam , even HADA weasels) are a lot smarter than that and will spend their $ and prep points wisely . Remember if the Type R driver leaves his engine alone he stays one or two classes below the hypothetical Camaro. OTOH he may decide to have suspension mods that allow him to beat an engine modified , stock suspensioned Camaro ( sure as hell would work at the DDT and Nelson) .

As Nino has said , the linear system allows anyone to modify their car to any degree they so choose as opposed to having to pigeon hole their cars the way we have to do now. No more spending money on stupid mods that may not work just because you have 8 points to play with . Also real novices with minimal points have a chance to compete with what they have, rather than modifying their cars to fit a certain classification .

BTW , I may have originally suggested working with a 2 family system but I far prefer option 4 the " Rob McAuley" linear system .

So get your votes to Dave Pratte ASAP

Shaman
11-13-2002, 11:15 PM
I am tentatively, but not unconditionally, for option number 4. However, I'd like to hear Eric's points because frankly I am at the busiest season of my business and I am busier than ever with the Bell and Cable incumbents doing their best to compete with monopoly dollars (but real ones) unfairly. My headspace is too full. :(

Jay
11-14-2002, 12:20 AM
Number 2 is the way to go for sure!

Solo I people are asking for SOME changes. Awesome! BUT as for a COMPLETE changeover, NO WAY! We just kicked off the NEW Family system, lets give it a chance!

Lets put into place the tweaks that need to be done. Sounds like the B family needs some work! Others are questioning the classification of the Z06's, M3, Miata, and others. Great! Let's have the CCC review each and every proposed re-classification, and consider them! Sounds like it will work to me.

Guys... when ya need to paint the living-room, ya don't begin by demolising the house. Lets get real here! Many of us just spent a lot of time and resources to develop our cars based on the NEW 2002 system. Moving to another NEW system in 2003 is simply not fair! Even if we do decide to make a huge change it MUST be phased in over a year or two!

Hey, at least I did not use the phrase "Red Line" :P


Ps. Great to see everyone at the Banquet! Awesome job Perry, you rock! Oh yeah, Christian you rock too!

For 2003, I recomend that we ban Hoosiers and brown-noseing! :D

pps. If any of you are looking to do some compeditive karting this winter check out www.hadamotorsport.com! We have a lot of fun! Come on out and join us! You too can ram the 2002 Solo I Series Champion Alec into the tires! (Pratte too) :D

It is nothing short of pure catharsis! Just ask Dave George! :)

Cheers,
Jay

Eric
11-14-2002, 02:16 AM
Dave Barker wrote:

"AS far as the arguement about different benefits for different modifications in different cars, i.e. engine mods in a Camaro vs a Type R. If they both start in the same root class due to similar stock PI then the Camaro owner may choose to do head and cam work which will work well , give him more power and move him up one or two classes on that basis alone . If the Type R owner were stupid enough to attempt the same mods and , as expected, got minimal to no gain in perforamance then he too would move up one or two classes and be at a serious disadvantage."

Your comment may be valid if in previous years a competitive class for a Type R with engine mods didn't exist. However, that is not the case. For the past two years many owners of vehicles with high PIs, whether they be Type Rs, Z06s, M3s or other have prepared their vehicles to SS or SP levels usually at considerable expense. To force them to have to bring their vehicles back to stock levels in order to be competitive because of a classification system change is not fair to them. And electing not to bring their vehicles back to stock levels certainly doesn't make them "stupid"! :mad:

Eric J.

Dave Barker
11-16-2002, 12:42 PM
Eric , I am not aware of any Type R with serious engine mods. Are there any who run ?? They seem to spend their points on suspension and chassis stuff and seem to go faster with these mods so I assume they are effective . Also am not aware of any M3 E 36 or 46 with any serious mods. The Z06 is already such a high PI car that it is at little risk from a well prepared lower level car. I think even Steve Cole will admit that with his mega engined F body he will have great difficulty beating a Z06 . 996 turbo or Viper for that matter. Besides wouldn't it be nice to see the top class have some multi brand competition??

Shaman
11-16-2002, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Dave Barker
I think even Steve Cole will admit that with his mega engined F body he will have great difficulty beating a Z06 .

Not really, but if I make a mistake, I'm done for. I believe I can more than compete with them, but if I'm not "on" that day I stand a good chance of losing, for sure. The tiny tracks we do with Solo-1 sure don't let my car stretch its legs, and the extra 300 pounds of weight, smaller tires, etc. aren't doing me any favours. Not to mention the fly-by-computer stuff in the Z06. Look how close Perez came to my 56.2 on DDT this year. Youch.

Modified Z06s are outta my league on Solo-1 tracks. They just have too much going for them, unless I want to strip/gut/lighten/tub my car to compete. That's just progress for you.

Betcha I have more fun, though. At least I'm in control of the car (most of the time!), not the computer. :)

Just for the sake of argument, I think the Viper GTS and 911TT will also have MAJOR trouble with the Z06 on Solo-1 tracks.

And I've heard the upcoming "standard" C6 is lapping 3 seconds a lap faster than the current Z06. There's food for thought.

ADAM
11-17-2002, 09:15 AM
bring em on... :)

nino..this year i would say i had a good chance against the new M3's my times were pretty close...in the end blair in his M3 would have beat me...but it would have been good racing....

re: z06's...hmmm ok.....i think a turbo 4cyl can easily take out the rustangs and cameros that are out currently......BUT the z06 seems very prepared to beat most 4cyl's ......however...with the sliding PI system...i think that with the proper mods the z06's could be beaten....(that is what my goal is in 2003) :)

from what i remember your talon was pretty quick...maybe a bit more boost will help...against the v8's



Originally posted by Dave
Nino, under option 3 if a 2.8 litre effective displacement cut-off was used, your Talon would be right at 2.8L so you'd stay in the lower class but Adam's car would unfortunately end up in the higher class with Z06's and such. But hey, Adam talks so much smack about beating the V8's this would be his chance to back it up! ;)

But you're right, more detail would allow people to give us more feedback. If you'd like I'll send you some Excel spreadsheets that break these systems down further. Let me know your address if you want them.

The poll was really designed to simply get a sense of which system competitors like best from a conceptual standpoint.

ADAM
11-17-2002, 09:23 AM
ohh...i fully support the option "4"....why

anyone can bring thier car out with whatever level of prepartion..and run it..without having to worry about having a few spare points...here and there.......plus it removes the whole "mod" thing so that a highly prepared lower car can race against "stock supercars" ....how much more fun could it get..taking your honda civic out and laying a beating to a viper or a 911 TT ? does it get any better than that...tell me.. :)

it takes away the very silly idea of "body styles" and allows simular performance cars to race against each other....this will add to the whole fun level...think...a stock z06..will have to worry about fully prepped turbo civics.......or a mustang will have to worry about a mildy prepped neon...ect...

think of the rivalry...domestic vs import.... FWD vs RWD...V8...vs turbo 4cyl.......that is the making of an EXITING race series......

Shaman
11-17-2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by ADAM
taking your honda civic out and laying a beating to a viper or a 911 TT ? does it get any better than that...tell me.. :)

Yes, owning the 911TT would be better. :)