Question about rules packages

[Pete@Marcor]

This is just for personal knowledge, so PLEASE do not take this to be any sort of official question.

I always hear about people commenting that they would like to move our Regional rules to mirror the SCCA rules. I am not sure if it is just a vocal few who are doing this, or if the general competition population would like this to happen.

Upsides - we get to use a rule set that has been developed over many years; the rules are consistent now, and will be for a while; there are no Canadians inputting, or trying to "make their mark" on the rules package which happened in years past.

I am of the opinion that most people in Canadian motorsports at the moment are in it for the betterment of the sport, but years ago, there were people in it for themselves.

Downsides - we will have no input to changes that we want; if you are asking for the interpretation of a rule, it will have to go to the US SEB for an answer; we will be subject to all of the rules idiosyncrasies that the SCCA has; Stock sized wheels in Stock; the US class rules have a set of allowed mods - since all mods can be applied to every car, there tends to be a "Car of the Year" in Stock classes.

The last downside is my biggest fear. I have been told that this problem is exaggerated, but if you look at National level results in the US, HS is ruled by Minis, and possibly the Mazda 3; GS is ruled by 05+ MCSs.

Anyways, I just wanted to start a NON-CONFRONTATIONAL discussion, and I am looking for some opinions.

[miataboi]

I'd love SCCA classing.

Give us a "ladder" or flexibility to take our sorted cars elsewhere for diff competition and then to Topeka...

IF we feel the need to change things... make it like a wheel size one... so that you can just bolt on a diff set of rubbers for up here vs. down there...



SCCA has this all sorted out in a WAY more "professional" way... let's just leverage that.

We are wanking at it here... and it then leaves us stranded even IF we get it right.

JMHO.

[gatherer]

I'd love to see a regional classing system that gets used by the clubs as well for club events, so that if I'm in class X at the regionals and show up to a club event I know I'm in class X there too. Locally (in Ontario) that is something I would love to see. the States does have that, SCCA rules are used at the national, regional and local levels and that is what makes the rule set a popular option up here.

but if we only bring in SCCA rules for the regional level every time you go to a club event you have to spend time figuring out what rules to use. when you hit another province you'd have to do the same thing, same with the canadian Nationals.

having a ruleset that works for all levels of the sport is I think what would really be benificial. ne of the things that the SCCA rules offers is class bumping, this allows the competition to have full classes and if at the club level they didn't want to run the same number of classes they could use this method to group classes.

just an opinion.

[Pete@Marcor]

I'd love SCCA classing.

Give us a "ladder" or flexibility to take our sorted cars elsewhere for diff competition and then to Topeka...

How many guys are honestly doing that? Should the rules be changed to accomodate 6-10 competitors? Or, does the general population like the choices we get to make?

IF we feel the need to change things... make it like a wheel size one... so that you can just bolt on a diff set of rubbers for up here vs. down there...

IF Canada were to move to an SCCA rule set, why would we change it? The PAXs are based upon the OE wheel size, as are the car groupings. I would only see this as an interim, if Canada were ever to go to SCCA rules. This would allow a competitor a grace period, but I don't see it as a long term solution.


SCCA has this all sorted out in a WAY more "professional" way... let's just leverage that.

We are wanking at it here... and it then leaves us stranded even IF we get it right.

JMHO.

Why do you say that? The SCCA SEB is doing things for the good of the sport, as are the Canadian representatives.

Why do you say we are just "wanking at it"? There is a National board, and then the Regional Committees who go through the book, to try to ensure fairness in car prep. How does this differ from the SCCA?

[Pete@Marcor]

I'd love to see a regional classing system that gets used by the clubs as well for club events, so that if I'm in class X at the regionals and show up to a club event I know I'm in class X there too. Locally (in Ontario) that is something I would love to see. the States does have that, SCCA rules are used at the national, regional and local levels and that is what makes the rule set a popular option up here.

but if we only bring in SCCA rules for the regional level every time you go to a club event you have to spend time figuring out what rules to use. when you hit another province you'd have to do the same thing, same with the canadian Nationals.

having a ruleset that works for all levels of the sport is I think what would really be benificial. ne of the things that the SCCA rules offers is class bumping, this allows the competition to have full classes and if at the club level they didn't want to run the same number of classes they could use this method to group classes.

just an opinion.

There is no way to mandate to a club to use a particular set of rules. We can only force them to follow the safety related stuff in the rulebooks. There are US clubs that run their own classes, as well.

I am not familiar with the bumping rules. That must be a Regional or club set of supplemental rules. I have never seen that in the National SCCA rules.

[gatherer]

Pete the bumping rules are in the national rule book. never gets used because all classes are filled... they use it for underfilled classes... I'll look up the section number when I get home to where the SCCA rule book is.

[Slowpoke]

I know there's a lot of SPDA guys who like to go across the border to compete with the SCCA guys. I know they'd likely benefit from some rule parity.

But I think that we have more Solo 2 guys who also are doing SoloSprint, vs. the SCCA. So I would rather see the Ontario Solo 2 prep schedule align itself with SoloSprint than the SCCA.

e.g.: Hardened / reinforced motor and tranny mounts = SP in Solo 2. Free in SoloSprint.
Brake upgrades free in SoloSprint, not in Solo 2.

[Pete@Marcor]

I know there's a lot of SPDA guys who like to go across the border to compete with the SCCA guys. I know they'd likely benefit from some rule parity.

But I think that we have more Solo 2 guys who also are doing SoloSprint, vs. the SCCA. So I would rather see the Ontario Solo 2 prep schedule align itself with SoloSprint than the SCCA.

e.g.: Hardened / reinforced motor and tranny mounts = SP in Solo 2. Free in SoloSprint.
Brake upgrades free in SoloSprint, not in Solo 2.

Steve, I would expect that the options would be to stay with the current rules, and continue to tweak them, or move to SCCA rules. I cannot see us trying to do a rule set like Solo 1.

However, those authorized mods are things that our current rules could allow. All you would need to do is petition for the rule change. It might pass, or it might not, but it is a possibility. I cannot see the need for the free brake upgrades, but I could potentially see engine mounts in SS. You do need to submit it, though.

With a move to SCCA rules, this is not too likely.

Are the guys who are running US Solo 2 events being put in uncompetitive classes? Are they having to change the prep of their cars? I would like to know.

[J.C.]

How many guys are honestly doing that?
Competitors that do all that from Ontario, 1. There may be as many as a dozen from Ontario that will attend a club/regional event south of the border. I don't know how many more would if there was rule parity.

Pete the bumping rules are in the national rule book. never gets used because all classes are filled... they use it for underfilled classes... I'll look up the section number when I get home to where the SCCA rule book is.
The bumping that I have seen are two version.
One worked similar to our (former) regional shootout qualifying. It would group prepared cars together or mod cars or SP and then PAX them within their group.

The other system I have seen would force you to move up a class to the point where you would now have enough competitors to form a class.

Note: This bumping is not always used.
But I think that we have more Solo 2 guys who also are doing SoloSprint, vs. the SCCA. So I would rather see the Ontario Solo 2 prep schedule align itself with SoloSprint than the SCCA.


Except there is a much bigger difference between SoloSprint and SoloII than there is between soloII and Solo2.

[13inches]

Steve, I would expect that the options would be to stay with the current rules, and continue to tweak them, or move to SCCA rules. I cannot see us trying to do a rule set like Solo 1.

However, those authorized mods are things that our current rules could allow. All you would need to do is petition for the rule change. It might pass, or it might not, but it is a possibility. I cannot see the need for the free brake upgrades, but I could potentially see engine mounts in SS. You do need to submit it, though.

With a move to SCCA rules, this is not too likely.

Are the guys who are running US Solo 2 events being put in uncompetitive classes? Are they having to change the prep of their cars? I would like to know.

Well, I can tell you that I haven't run SCCA events because of how my car would class down there versus up here. I can also tell you that anyone in a stock class who is not using a tire that would fit on a stock size wheel would likely not run in the states. (ie: A stock EG Civic running 15" tires up here would need to find some 13" or 14" tires to run in the states)

The fact is, our ruleset is GREAT for our current competitor base. That being people who want to drive their car on the street, daily drive it, go lapping in it, solo1 in it, whatever. We can do more, have more fun, and still have dual purposes vehicles. Then there's the few who do actually prepare for serious competition (SP level for the most part) and not as much track/daily driving. They get screwed down south becuase the cars are underprepped for the mod/prep class they end up in.

For the small majority that want to compete in the states (for the fame, $$, or simply the better competiton), they have to trade-off the opposite way, and are left under-prepped up here instead.

Its a tough choice.

I personally would like the top tier competition in this country/province to switch to the SCCA rules to encourage competition on both sides of the border, although it could really cripple the current field of competitors here. Almost everyone would have some work to do to bring their car to a competitive level within that ruelset.

[J.C.]

Are the guys who are running US Solo 2 events being put in uncompetitive classes? Are they having to change the prep of their cars? I would like to know.
Generally they get forced to run in a higher class. If they are lucky enough they can co-drive someone elses car that does not end up so badly classed.

[Pete@Marcor]

Generally they get forced to run in a higher class. If they are lucky enough they can co-drive someone elses car that does not end up so badly classed.

Kind of what I expected. And, anyone running MOD is ok, as our rules are so open, correct?

So if the National event changed its classing to SCCA stuff, and we kept our Regional classing, would that not do the same thing to the National? Wouldn't everyone then place a lower importance on the National, and then be less likely to prep the car for the National event? If it were my choice, I would like to see a similar classing for Regionals and the Nationals. Again, just my choice.

[J.C.]

Kind of what I expected. And, anyone running MOD is ok, as our rules are so open, correct?

That is why the Golf was sold/parted/scrapped and the scirocco was built. Though our mod class is way more open than the SCCA's mod class.

[miataboi]

Our SS cars get screwed in their SP classes...

our SP cars get screwed by their SM and SM2 classes....




You can't be even close to optimal for both... unless you are in stock... AND your car suits the dual rulesets...

I want to forget CASC and just build an SCCA car.
Now I'd be compromising locally to run in the 'states.

Stock or Mod has a shot at pulling off both sides of the border... that's it.

[101rs]

For me SM and DSP align up pretty good. I can't max out in DSP and stay in SM due to a few minor things like anti-lift kit. and I'm forced to keep the stock block due to the rules in DSP when a engine swap is legal in SM. But my car still does well at the SCCA regional level with class wins in Detroit, WNY, and Quebec regions. and unless i found $100 grand sitting under my bed, i would never be able to max out my car for either class and even then i don't think i would break the top 5 in class at the US national.

Anyone who runs stock class here gets screwed if they run a SCCA event due to the stock rim size and rear sway bar (if they are running one). Our SS fits pretty good with SCCA SP with last years camber rule change in SS with a few more engine mods(ITB, headers etc) allowed in SCCA SP then our SS. Most of our SP cars will fit into SM or SM2. And our MOD cars would get thrown into many different Mod and Prepared classes and probably get very lonely.

Personally, i think either way(which ever class system we use) the same people are going to win there class or be running near the top of it. But i think there may be some interesting battles, because although there are more classes, half of them are for cars we'll never see over here(prepared and mod classes). I would guess it would make sightly bigger classes.

The last downside is my biggest fear. I have been told that this problem is exaggerated, but if you look at National level results in the US, HS is ruled by Minis, and possibly the Mazda 3; GS is ruled by 05+ MCSs.

That is the case in our current classing anyways, you not going to beat a type R in DS, or a mini-s in GS. We just don't have the number of drivers showing up in our region to show it. We do after all already do use the SCCA root classing right now(with a few changes here and there)

Well, I can tell you that I haven't run SCCA events because of how my car would class down there versus up here.

I think your car would do fine in SM2, at least the SM2 cars i have seen at events.
remember if a true SP car(for our rules set) showed up, where money was no object like is the case at the US national, all of us would have a hard time keeping up.

[miataboi]

If it remains as-is... Canada will always be lesser than the 'States...
They have more talent depth and more serious competitors... AND CONTINGENCYS.

AND...

Canada won't really make it's mark down there... as we can't compete there in anything other than a stock type-r or mini... or a mod-weapon.





If we want our little sandbox... then leavingn it alone is fine... but we will have NO IDEA how good we are or be able to showoff our regions / countries' talent north america wide.

SCCA does everything WE do in Canada... on a bigger scale. There is merit to a larger scale.. SEB is more "stable" then a handful of regional solo 2 leaders... some serious... and others less so - all with an equal say???

SCCA is a business... and it's run like one... so at least you know they won't do dumb things / make myopic decisions that will kill it off and force solo 2 to go in cycles like has happened here for the last 15-20 yrs.

In Canada... we are often at the mercy of 1 or 2 peole...

SCCA's figured out all of the classing, the rules,. the precidents, the hearings, etc... it's all turnkey!

Or we could choose to make more work for ourselves and still end up with a more amateurish implimentation...

Just how I see it.

[Marsh]

In Canada we are never at the mercy of one or two people. We are at the mercy of the vocal minority. Those people that constantly complain that our rule set doesn't make sense and the reason they are uncompetitive is because of the rules or that the rules are not the same was (insert club name here)'s rules and thus it's too complicated. So the rules keep changing and changing and now I'm sitting here waiting to find out what sized wheels I have to buy next year in order to have a car that's legal for something other than modified. I'll buy those wheels and I'll still be competitive, the complainers will still be uncompetitive and we will continue to loose even more credibillity with our own competitors for failing to come up with a good rule set.

Here in Ontario we have a prep level that the SCCA doesn't. Down there the Street Touring classes are insanely popular, but not because of street tires, it's because the prep level matches what is popular. We have SS, so why not simply adjust SS to include more points and have a better system than SCCA? I'll tell you why, because what ever you do the people that aren't happy with it will raise holy hell and it won't happen. We have a system that works. Lets improve it and not ditch it and screw over the largest region in the nation... again.

[Pete@Marcor]

If it remains as-is... Canada will always be lesser than the 'States...
They have more talent depth and more serious competitors... AND CONTINGENCYS.

We are smaller. We are going to have a shallower talent pool. It only makes sense.

Since I have been around Solo when we actually did have contingencies, I don't necessarily see it as better or greater. Yes, it is good to have free stuff. But, these companies do not come to us and offer it. If you are going to complain to me that we don't have contingencies, I think you shoudl offer the solution.

AND...

Canada won't really make it's mark down there... as we can't compete there in anything other than a stock type-r or mini... or a mod-weapon.

Canadians do thing on a smaller scale than Americans. I have seen it in every motorsports arena I have been to.



If we want our little sandbox... then leavingn it alone is fine... but we will have NO IDEA how good we are or be able to showoff our regions / countries' talent north america wide.

SCCA does everything WE do in Canada... on a bigger scale. There is merit to a larger scale.. SEB is more "stable" then a handful of regional solo 2 leaders... some serious... and others less so - all with an equal say???

SCCA is a business... and it's run like one... so at least you know they won't do dumb things / make myopic decisions that will kill it off and force solo 2 to go in cycles like has happened here for the last 15-20 yrs.

I agree. WE shoudl start to pay the people who do this job. Treat it like a business. Unfortunately, we don't have the funds to do that yet. Solution?

[miataboi]

I've stated my thoughts on the subject....

And Pete - you've countered just about every point of mine with with another question....

What is your belief on the topic? or what is youe true reason for asking?
What would you like to see? Why bring the topic up now?




On another note... my absense during the CASC regional Solo 2 season wasn't a coincidence... I didn't want to run here... so those that ultimately do not like the system will leave / stay away - I mean we had the lowest turnout in recent history / this latest generation of solo'ists... Do you see this as a time to re-build the series? Are you toying with SCCA rulesets as one way of doing so?

[Doug Phillips]

Anyone who runs stock class here gets screwed if they run a SCCA event due to the stock rim size and rear sway bar (if they are running one). Our SS fits pretty good with SCCA SP with last years camber rule change in SS with a few more engine mods(ITB, headers etc) allowed in SCCA SP then our SS.

It is a pretty easy conversion to have a second set of wheels for running in a stock class under both rulesets.

The CASC-OR and National ruleset changes allowed me to add some parts that allowed me to improve camber in ESS and be more competitive while being still underprepped in ESS. By doing so, my car ended up illegal in SCCA ESP. :(

Any decisions on rules or changes should be made as a result of the meeting to be held in November. Rules need to be published before the year end to allow for appropriate planning and modifications to the car. Last years changes in the spring allowed significate changes to my car while staying in the same class. It took 3 months to get the parts on the car and by that time 5 of 10 events were already over. :(

Discuss the direction to be taken, make the decision and publish the results for everyone to see. Do this in a timely manner to allow all people to plan and proceed accordingly.

[miataboi]

My gut tells me that under the present direction.... that we are NOT likely to go to full SCCA rules... not a chance.

It'd take a recognition that we are at rock-bottom and a change of direction / leadership / etc.


I just don't see anyone steppng up to do that... and so I imagine that CASC-OR solo 2 be on a similar path... because I do not believe that my feelings re: SCCA classing is the "majority"

Not to mention the politics in CASC and the CAC / ASN / FIA... OMG.

I believe that there are many "local competitors" who favour leaving the rules as they are so as not to disrupt their classing / car prep.


So the present state... is that if you want to run CASC / CAC rules then stay local and enjoy the cdn talent depth and local events...

If you want what the SCCA has to offer... prep a car for them and head south.

[Doug Phillips]

Not to mention the politics in CASC and the CAC / ASN / FIA... OMG.

I understand that all people are doing this part time however I don't undertand what is going on here.

It should not take 4 months to get an answer from the CAC to a question about a rule.

When an answer is finally provided, it is reasonable to expect that it is supported with sound explanation of the decision.

[andrew1984]

ill start off by saying that i havent read the full postings.....

----------

from what ive heard - many other provinces use scca format.

ontario is "the other white meat"

you may not be surprised to know that i could care less what system you guys use. i have grown very tired of the politics and hidden agendas.

maybe if the "fast 'guys' in charge" cared enough - they'd review a change to scca, but for now - they enjoy being in the top 10.

ask yourselves, how(why) can casc pluck 'n pull specific rules from scca rulebook, modify it to their needs and then use the same pax indexing.

oh and PAX is wack - just like the guy who invented it.


heres an idea; a PMG regional series :rolleyes: :eek:

[TOYSRUS]

Anyone who runs stock class here gets screwed if they run a SCCA event due to the stock rim size and rear sway bar (if they are running one).

Bruno and Carl have proved this NOT to be true....you CAN be competitve in both series. Driver skill, car choice and prep level (in that order) ALL play into how competitive you'll be.


That is the case in our current classing anyways, you not going to beat a type R in DS, or a mini-s in GS.

An Audi TT beat the TYPE R day 2 at the Cdn. Nationals I beleive......and I have never been beat by a mini-s in GS, in fact I am confident a Civic SI can win GS at the SCCA nationals next year ;)

Though not in the spirit of this thread (sorry Pete) attending SCCA events is about the expereince and unique competition we can't find here, there are so many classes you'll be able to find somwhere to run and have FUN.

[Pete@Marcor]

And Pete - you've countered just about every point of mine with with another question....

What is your belief on the topic? or what is youe true reason for asking?
What would you like to see? Why bring the topic up now?

Realize that I don't make the decisions in Ontario about which rules we run. That is the Solo Director's job. We elect the Solo 2 Director every 2 years. No-one else has made a serious effort to run for the position while it has been up for election. Rumblings, but no-one has said that they would do it. As such, we run the rules that our elected official, Wes, has decided we will run.

I was asked by a fairly serious Regional competitor about the possibility of running the Nationals under the SCCA rule set. It is only my personal opinion, but if the National CAC is run under the SCCA rules, it would be very nice if the Ontario Region Solo 2 rules were run under either the exact same rules, or something that is very similar. Similar enough that most cars would stay where they were. There are 2 other Regions in Canada that either run similar rules, or are thinking of moving to the SCCA rules.

Personally, I am not a huge fan of the SCCA rules. It is my personal opinion that the gap between Stock and SP is huge. They end up with around half of their competitors in Stock, and you can end up with an almost MOD car in SP. The rules for ST classes down there are what are very similar to what one could get in a Canadian SS car. Also, we do not have the numbers of competitors to run all of their classes. By a quick count, we run 24 classes, I think that SCCA has 34. We will end up with many more events where the classes are underfilled.

But, if that is the direction that we go, I will run a car in SCCA rules. I am still unlikely to do more than 1 or 2 US events per year in the US.

I like how our rules work, and I think that the prep schedule works for our customer base.

We are about a week away from a possible Solo meeting, to discuss possible rule changes. Why not bring the subject of rules up, to promote a discussion before that occurs? Also, if it came up in March that we would be running the SCCA rules, how much flak would there be? I am trying to be pro-active, and start a nice, friendly discussion about how our rules should evolve.

[Pete@Marcor]

It is a pretty easy conversion to have a second set of wheels for running in a stock class under both rulesets.

The CASC-OR and National ruleset changes allowed me to add some parts that allowed me to improve camber in ESS and be more competitive while being still underprepped in ESS. By doing so, my car ended up illegal in SCCA ESP. :(

Any decisions on rules or changes should be made as a result of the meeting to be held in November. Rules need to be published before the year end to allow for appropriate planning and modifications to the car. Last years changes in the spring allowed significate changes to my car while staying in the same class. It took 3 months to get the parts on the car and by that time 5 of 10 events were already over. :(

Discuss the direction to be taken, make the decision and publish the results for everyone to see. Do this in a timely manner to allow all people to plan and proceed accordingly.

The problem Doug, is that a second set of wheels and tires is not a cheap thing, and that is the easiest mod change for a competitor going from Canada to the US. And, I keep getting told that only the most underprepared Stock class cars can do that. Everyone else will get shafted by the rules in the US.

Why did we put those changes in? My guess that after a bit of dicussion, the CNAC decided to put it into the National rules, and Ontario followed suit.

How many events did that stop you from running in the US?

[Doug Phillips]

The problem Doug, is that a second set of wheels and tires is not a cheap thing, and that is the easiest mod change for a competitor going from Canada to the US. And, I keep getting told that only the most underprepared Stock class cars can do that. Everyone else will get shafted by the rules in the US.

Why did we put those changes in? My guess that after a bit of dicussion, the CNAC decided to put it into the National rules, and Ontario followed suit.

How many events did that stop you from running in the US?

At least rims are a recoverable cost on a car when parts are sold. Other modifications are usually not.

If the PAX we use is based on SCCA rules why do we allow a change in wheel size here? It gives stock cars an increased advantage with PAX on top of the disadvantage to modified cars due to our usually smaller and tighter courses.

One of the problems we have here is visibility on why changes are being made in the first place. We have no access to what the CAC TAC is considering or decides until the rulebook is released. Does the TAC have regulare telecons? Are minutes taken? Why do they not post this information so people can see what is going on? I think minutes used to be posted on the VCMC site but not for a couple of years now. For all we know they have decided to align with SCCA rules for Nationals next year and we will find out in March when the rules are released.

The changes did not prevent me from running any SCCA events last year. I was seriously considering codriving the Z06 that won our Nationals. I was offered the ride by the owner but in a bumped class. I am looking at next year but not likely with my car. The changes I made this year are not allowed in ESP and my car is still underpreped for ESP if I change it back. The nut behind the wheel is still the biggest change required, comparing my times to Carl and G.J. I have a lot of time to make up to get into the trophies. I would look to codrive someone elses car, preferably tirewarming an ESP or Fstock top runner to give myself the best chance possible at a reasonably placement.

We either make minor changes to our current rules (like dropping the wheels in stock) or align with the SCCA rules. My main point is, either way, the CAC TAC has had all year to be considering these options. There is no reason that a decision on direction cannot be made shortly with the release of the rules to follow. All discussions and considerations should also be made public.

[Tashko]

I don't know the politics or even understand the organisational structure but my hopes are that we run under a Canadian National rule set in all the provincial Regionals (I don't even know which provinces have Regionals). I don't particularly care what individual clubs do and I think this thread was directed at Regional rules. Clubs are for fun (run what ya'brung) and the Regionals are for more serious fun. :)

I'm planning to run a couple of US events next year and go to Topeka. I have no idea how competitive I'll be but probably not very due to driver skill rather than the car prep.

My main concern is that CNAC classing and Regional classing are exactly the same.

As for SCCA, I'll have to read their classing but my understanding is that they concentrate mainly on street tire classes which we don't do. Makes sense for club events but not National/Regional competition. Maybe my attitude will change after figuring out how it would affect me.

What's good for them isn't necessarily good for us. We are just talking about classing and not the other rule book sections?

[Doug Phillips]

Pete, we discussed this one before.

Last October I lost my motor due to oiling issues in the Camaro caused by the loading of competing in Solo 2. I had it rebuilt to stock but had the opportunity to change to an aftermarket oil pan at a low cost as the motor was out of the car.

I asked Wes if it was allowed and, as the CASC-OR rules are based on the National rules, he forwarded the question. It took 3-4 months to get a reply, too late, the motor was back in the car with the stock pan. In any case, I was told that if I changed the pan I would be bumped to ESP. :(

In Solo 1 this modification is free as they do not consider it to provide any performance improvement, just protection of the motor.

I asked for a clarification of why I would be bumped to ESP and quoted the text (provided below) from the rules that tell me it is allowed if I take 2 points as an external modification.

xiii. Modification and/or substitution of any or all external engine components and/or accessories. Eligible components include: Any accessory pulleys and belts of the same type (e.g., V-belt, serpentine) as standard may be used. This allowance applies to accessory pulleys only (e.g. alternator, water pump, power steering pump, and crankshaft drive pulleys with or without pulley-damper/balancer assemblies).

Camshafts and related parts must remain standard except that alternate cam drive pulleys or gears may be used to adjust cam timing if no variable cam and/or valve-timing system exists as standard. Type of cam drive (chain, belt, gear) must remain as standard.

Alternate parts of the same general type (e.g. roller chain in place of "silent" chain) may be substituted. Mating parts (block, heads, covers, retainers, etc.) may not be altered. Vehicles equipped with a variable cam and/or valve timing system as standard may use alternate computer calibration to adjust cam and/or valve timing but may not change or substitute cam drive components (hardware).

Supercharger drives are excluded from this allowance. Alternate pulley materials may be used. They may serve no other purpose. Any alternate water pumps, alternators, cooling and oiling systems (beyond allowable items). The original system (wet sump or dry sump) of engine oiling must be retained. Any oiling system component may be added, modified or substituted.


To me the glaring text is the last three sentences of this section. Why is the oil pan not included in this?

I have never received a clarification.

Of course I do not agree with the decision provided as I believe the text is very clear.

The bigger issue here is the time it takes to get a decision, and the complete lack of visibility of who makes the desision and why.

[Pete@Marcor]

If the PAX we use is based on SCCA rules why do we allow a change in wheel size here? It gives stock cars an increased advantage with PAX on top of the disadvantage to modified cars due to our usually smaller and tighter courses.

One of the problems we have here is visibility on why changes are being made in the first place. We have no access to what the CAC TAC is considering or decides until the rulebook is released. Does the TAC have regulare telecons? Are minutes taken? Why do they not post this information so people can see what is going on? I think minutes used to be posted on the VCMC site but not for a couple of years now. For all we know they have decided to align with SCCA rules for Nationals next year and we will find out in March when the rules are released.

The changes did not prevent me from running any SCCA events last year. I was seriously considering codriving the Z06 that won our Nationals. I was offered the ride by the owner but in a bumped class. I am looking at next year but not likely with my car. The changes I made this year are not allowed in ESP and my car is still underpreped for ESP if I change it back. The nut behind the wheel is still the biggest change required, comparing my times to Carl and G.J. I have a lot of time to make up to get into the trophies. I would look to codrive someone elses car, preferably tirewarming an ESP or Fstock top runner to give myself the best chance possible at a reasonably placement.

We either make minor changes to our current rules (like dropping the wheels in stock) or align with the SCCA rules. My main point is, either way, the CAC TAC has had all year to be considering these options. There is no reason that a decision on direction cannot be made shortly with the release of the rules to follow. All discussions and considerations should also be made public.

As a tradition, Canadian rules have almost always allowed a wheel change in stock. My opinion is that it levels the playing field in Stock. Cars tha thave great OE wheel and tire packages do not gain as much, as compared to other Stock cars that are handicapped by a tiny OE wheel.

I don't necessarily agree that modified cars lose on a tight course. One of the first mods ever done is suspension. I personally see so few fully prepared modified cars, and that is the main reason that SS, SP, and MOD have bad PAXs, as compared to Stock.

I do not know if the CAC TAC even has regular meetings, or it is is all email/list servers based. I would expect it is all electronic these days. Maybe they could publish a list of the topics that had been reviewed by the comittee over the previous month. That can be a suggestion to them.

I think that they realize that they need to publish a rule book in a much more timely manner than they did last year.

[TOYSRUS]

I don't necessarily agree that modified cars lose on a tight course. One of the first mods ever done is suspension. I personally see so few fully prepared modified cars, and that is the main reason that SS, SP, and MOD have bad PAXs, as compared to Stock.


This argument kills me Pete......although you are right in saying there are few fully prepared sp and mod cars, we do have an EXCELLENT representation (though small) of well prepared, well DRIVEN cars in these classes and they are rarely ever competitive...the PAX factor we use is not an accurate handicap system. I don't care what rule-set we run, what I support is the inter-classed Pax system discussed earlier!

[Pete@Marcor]

Yes, there are a lot of SS, SP, and MOD cars that are well driven. But, I have often seen them, on occasion, come close to winning an event based upon PAX.
Event 1 top 10 - 5 stock, 3 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 2 top 10 - 4 stock, 3 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 3 top 10 - 4 stock, 4 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 4 top 10 - 5 stock, 2 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 5 top 10 - 5 stock, 2 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 6 top 10 - 7 stock, 2 SS, 1 SP cars
Event 7 top 10 - 6 stock, 2 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 8 top 10 - 5 stock, 2 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 9 top 10 - 7 stock, 1 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 10 top 10 - 5 stock, 3 SS, 2 SP cars

Overall top 45 competitors - 17 Stock, 11 SS, 11 SP, 5 MOD.

Yes, the slight bias is towards Stock, but I would need to do more work to see what the mix of competitors is. Also, it is easier to have a Stock car closer to being optimized, as compared to SS, SP and MOD.

I am not saying that our PAX system is ideal. However, it is a pretty reasonable compromise. Tweaking of the PAX numbers on a yearly basis is what has been happening, and I think that they are pretty close. I did not realize we were that far off.

[max attack]

I haven't been around much due to the lack of a car but it seems to me the current rules produced many more very close class battles as compared to ruleset used before(were 1/4 of the cars were in the same class-BSS:)).Not going to give my views on pax.:)
Since I'm in mod I don't have much to say on the lower classing but for mod class I'd offer a suggestion that of all our mod classes be combined into 1 with min weights being set for each drivetrain type,chassis configuration,engine size,boost or no boost etc etc.
The scca ruleset has already done the work and uses this exact same fomula for their XP class-would seem simple enough to adopt it.It would give all the mod cars(not many anywho)the ability to compete in one class,I think it would make for one very interesting class to watch.

[yellowhotshoe]

Tom, I agree with your idea of using the SCCA classing / ruleset when it comes to the Mod classes. From a strictly personal and somewhat selfish point of view, the FFR Cobras were reclassed in SCCA last year - to XP and BP I think - and were much more competitve. I think in the Mod classes it makes sense to use a drivetrain, weight rule etc., but then this involves scales at the regional events for teching 3 or 4 cars.

A rework of the Mod rules might be something to think about since it seems as though there are a few more Mod classed cars popping up. Is it because it is easier (and more fun) to build a car for these classes? Granted with the present ruleset / PAX, there will never be a champion from Mod. IMHO.

[max attack]

Yeah I was pondering the scale thing as well,I'm a trusting kinda guy so I would be ok with an honor system.Besides that the min weights listed for XP aren't that easy to get down to,for example my front engined rwd corolla with the supercharged 1600cc engine has a min of 1600lbs(from memory but I'm pretty sure thats right).
Thats pretty tough to get to believe me,with the roof and rear quarters in composite as planned and the remaining steel bits cut off it might get close to that-but than I have to add the full cage back on that I'm redoing so I can do other types of events.
I expect to be about 100lbs over weight when done,another item that would impact my situation IF this was changed word for word from the scca prepared ruleset is that I need to run a water air intercooler AND water injection before the charger to keep from burning this motor up(this roots blower makes an insane amount of heat!)and with solo 2 there simply isn't enough airflow to suffeciently cool it with an a2a.I have the sale of a w2a i/c pending right now and just about to start gathering pieces to set-up my own cheap water injection deal.
I'd love to hear the thoughts from Andrew and Bill since they are the other main mod guys.

[Doug Phillips]

Yes, there are a lot of SS, SP, and MOD cars that are well driven. But, I have often seen them, on occasion, come close to winning an event based upon PAX.
Event 1 top 10 - 5 stock, 3 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 2 top 10 - 4 stock, 3 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 3 top 10 - 4 stock, 4 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 4 top 10 - 5 stock, 2 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 5 top 10 - 5 stock, 2 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 6 top 10 - 7 stock, 2 SS, 1 SP cars
Event 7 top 10 - 6 stock, 2 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 8 top 10 - 5 stock, 2 SS, 3 SP cars
Event 9 top 10 - 7 stock, 1 SS, 2 SP cars
Event 10 top 10 - 5 stock, 3 SS, 2 SP cars

Overall top 45 competitors - 17 Stock, 11 SS, 11 SP, 5 MOD.

Yes, the slight bias is towards Stock, but I would need to do more work to see what the mix of competitors is. Also, it is easier to have a Stock car closer to being optimized, as compared to SS, SP and MOD.

I am not saying that our PAX system is ideal. However, it is a pretty reasonable compromise. Tweaking of the PAX numbers on a yearly basis is what has been happening, and I think that they are pretty close. I did not realize we were that far off.

Only 35 people attended 6 of the 10 events for points so a better comparison would be Overall top 35 competitors - 17 Stock, 8 SS, 6 SP, 4 MOD.

Also of the top 10 competitors - 6 Stock, 3 SS, 1 SP. I am not taking anything away from these guys, all of them are top drivers, 4 are in AWD cars.

Do you compete in Stock for the class win only or are you looking for an Overall Championship? Why do the top 4 drivers choose to compete in stock classes?

No difference to me. I drive the big boat because I like the car, find it challenging, and enjoy spending a lot more money on rubber than other cars.:D

[J.C.]

Since PAX was brought up.
For those that do not have the two "different" PAX points schedules here they are so you can compare them.

CASC-OR - 2006
SS 0.840 ASS 0.842 ASP 0.862 AM 1.000
AS 0.831 BSS 0.833 BSP 0.853 BM 0.944
BS 0.822 CSS 0.830 CSP 0.850 CM 0.909
CS 0.813 DSS 0.819 DSP 0.839 DM 0.885
DS 0.798 ESS 0.818 ESP 0.838
ES 0.806 FSS 0.804 FSP 0.824
FS 0.805
GS 0.794
HS 0.780

US PAX - 2006
SS 0.840 ASP 0.852 XP 0.868 AM 1.000
AS 0.831 BSP 0.843 BP 0.862 BM 0.944
BS 0.822 CSP 0.838 CP 0.856 CM 0.909
CS 0.813 DSP 0.829 DP 0.853 DM 0.885
DS 0.798 ESP 0.828 EP 0.858 EM 0.881
ES 0.806 FSP 0.814 FP 0.863 FM 0.887
FS 0.805 GP 0.844 FSAE 0.948
GS 0.794 STS 0.797
HS 0.780 STS2 0.802 F125 0.937
STX 0.804 FJ1 0.781
STU 0.820 FJ2 0.796
SM 0.845 FJ3 (FJB) 0.830
SM2 0.854 FJ4 (FJA) 0.837


The numbers are very similar and many are identical for certain classes.

FYI for you mod class guys our CM pax is the same as there CM pax wich at first sounds akin to what was done for all the other classes. Except our CM is not the same as their CM class. Our CM class is more like their DM class. Their CM are formula race cars.

[Doug Phillips]

Since PAX was brought up.
For those that do not have the two "different" PAX points schedules here they are so you can compare them.

CASC-OR - 2006
SS 0.840 ASS 0.842 ASP 0.862 AM 1.000
AS 0.831 BSS 0.833 BSP 0.853 BM 0.944
BS 0.822 CSS 0.830 CSP 0.850 CM 0.909
CS 0.813 DSS 0.819 DSP 0.839 DM 0.885
DS 0.798 ESS 0.818 ESP 0.838
ES 0.806 FSS 0.804 FSP 0.824
FS 0.805
GS 0.794
HS 0.780

US PAX - 2006
SS 0.840 ASP 0.852 XP 0.868 AM 1.000
AS 0.831 BSP 0.843 BP 0.862 BM 0.944
BS 0.822 CSP 0.838 CP 0.856 CM 0.909
CS 0.813 DSP 0.829 DP 0.853 DM 0.885
DS 0.798 ESP 0.828 EP 0.858 EM 0.881
ES 0.806 FSP 0.814 FP 0.863 FM 0.887
FS 0.805 GP 0.844 FSAE 0.948
GS 0.794 STS 0.797
HS 0.780 STS2 0.802 F125 0.937
STX 0.804 FJ1 0.781
STU 0.820 FJ2 0.796
SM 0.845 FJ3 (FJB) 0.830
SM2 0.854 FJ4 (FJA) 0.837


The numbers are very similar and many are identical for certain classes.

FYI for you mod class guys our CM pax is the same as there CM pax wich at first sounds akin to what was done for all the other classes. Except our CM is not the same as their CM class. Our CM class is more like their DM class. Their CM are formula race cars.

There is a few errors in the CASC-OR PAX. After the release of the Regional Rulebook this Bulletin 1 was release advising of changes to the rules including amendment to some PAX numbers.http://www.casc.on.ca/uploadedFiles/06-as01060510122627.pdf

Specifically PAX for CSS,CSP, ESS, ESP, and DM were increased and CM was decreased as follows.

CASC-OR - 2006[/U][/B]
SS 0.840 ASS 0.842 ASP 0.862 AM 1.000
AS 0.831 BSS 0.833 BSP 0.853 BM 0.944
BS 0.822 CSS 0.832 CSP 0.852 CM 0.900
CS 0.813 DSS 0.819 DSP 0.839 DM 0.908
DS 0.798 ESS 0.820 ESP 0.840
ES 0.806 FSS 0.804 FSP 0.824
FS 0.805
GS 0.794
HS 0.780

The National PAX numbers were not changed. There was no explanation for the changes.

[Tashko]

Pete, we discussed this one before.

Last October I lost my motor due to oiling issues in the Camaro caused by the loading of competing in Solo 2. I had it rebuilt to stock but had the opportunity to change to an aftermarket oil pan at a low cost as the motor was out of the car.


Didn't Marsh lose the motor in the Prelude due to a similar issue? It would make sense to allow baffled oil pans as I don't see where a performance advantage would be gained. Does SCCA allow this? It would be one example of where it's good to have control of our own prep rules.

When is the meeting for rules discussions?

[Doug Phillips]

Didn't Marsh lose the motor in the Prelude due to a similar issue? It would make sense to allow baffled oil pans as I don't see where a performance advantage would be gained. Does SCCA allow this? It would be one example of where it's good to have control of our own prep rules.

When is the meeting for rules discussions?

I don't see this as a rule change issue. I think the way the current rules are written is pretty clear that a change would be OK in SS and SP for 2 points. The problem is the CAC TAC, or whoever makes the decision, takes to long to provide a reply to a question and do not provide any explanation when the decision is questioned.

How do you read that section?

In hind sight I should have just relaced the pan when the motor was out and taken the 2 prep points. Not a problem until someone chooses to protest.

I put in a question about licences recently and a reply was received quickly. :)

[ShaneG]

I have not gone through the rules, but the last line Any oiling system component may be added, modified or substituted.
makes me wonder...

is the oil pan part of the "system" or is it simply a reservoir..no moving parts, no active components al.la. accusump etc.

...because I agree with you Doug, I can't see a performance benefit to a baffeled pan. and any modification that allows equipment to better survive the event, that does not offer a performance benefit should not be charged points.

but what do I know?

[Doug Phillips]

Only 35 people attended 6 of the 10 events for points so a better comparison would be Overall top 35 competitors - 17 Stock, 8 SS, 6 SP, 4 MOD.

Also of the top 10 competitors - 6 Stock, 3 SS, 1 SP. I am not taking anything away from these guys, all of them are top drivers, 4 are in AWD cars.

Do you compete in Stock for the class win only or are you looking for an Overall Championship? Why do the top 4 drivers choose to compete in stock classes?

No difference to me. I drive the big boat because I like the car, find it challenging, and enjoy spending a lot more money on rubber than other cars.:D

More interesting results from the Nationals this year.

Of the top 10 competitors - 9 Stock, 0 SS, 1 SP.

Again, all of them are top drivers, 6 of them choosing D Stock.

[Pete@Marcor]

Only 35 people attended 6 of the 10 events for points so a better comparison would be Overall top 35 competitors - 17 Stock, 8 SS, 6 SP, 4 MOD.

Also of the top 10 competitors - 6 Stock, 3 SS, 1 SP. I am not taking anything away from these guys, all of them are top drivers, 4 are in AWD cars.

Do you compete in Stock for the class win only or are you looking for an Overall Championship? Why do the top 4 drivers choose to compete in stock classes?

No difference to me. I drive the big boat because I like the car, find it challenging, and enjoy spending a lot more money on rubber than other cars.:D

I personally expect to be in the hunt for a class championship. I also would like to be in the ball park for overall. At this stage in time, I am not able to fully develop an SP or MOD car. So, that means I am more able to compete for overall in an SS or Stock car.

Does the current climate promote a Stock or SS car to be better for overall? Absolutely. That is one of the prime reasons that I chose to compete in Stock. I cannot vouch for any of the other top competitors, but I think that each one of them actually owns a vehicle that is prepped for SS or above. This suggests that they also chose to compete in Stock, because of the benefits for overall scoring.

The problem is what should be done, if anything, to change that. I always hear about the fact that the PAXs are wrong. I am not sure I would agree, and everyone who competes thinks that their own personal PAX should be better. And, the PAXs have been an evolutionary thing. but, this is something that is looked into every off season.

[miataboi]

Pax means very little (and consequently our overall championship title) in comparison to the importance of our Ruleset, it's integrity and consistency of application... as well as it's alignment with the Cdn National ruleset and the SCCA ruleset.

Pax is a nice to have / theoretical handicap index...

But who cares about PAX if we don't have a stable / legit / meanigful ruleset?

Pax is on top / over and above the ruleset, imho. It means something... but not everything... and solo 2 could easily exist without it...

I just use it as an insight into drivers, cars, conditions, tires, etc. after the fact.



SCCA rules for all of North America!
:cool:

[brute66]

I think there are some more immediate issues to resolve before full adoption of SCCA rules is done for Solo II.......speaking of which, when is the 2007 rules discussion planned?

[TOYSRUS]

I think there are some more immediate issues to resolve before full adoption of SCCA rules is done for Solo II.......speaking of which, when is the 2007 rules discussion planned?

Which issues are you refferring to?

[Pete@Marcor]

Pax means very little (and consequently our overall championship title) in comparison to the importance of our Ruleset, it's integrity and consistency of application... as well as it's alignment with the Cdn National ruleset and the SCCA ruleset.

Pax is a nice to have / theoretical handicap index...

But who cares about PAX if we don't have a stable / legit / meanigful ruleset?

Pax is on top / over and above the ruleset, imho. It means something... but not everything... and solo 2 could easily exist without it...

I just use it as an insight into drivers, cars, conditions, tires, etc. after the fact.



SCCA rules for all of North America!
:cool:

Personally, I would like to see the Ontario Region rules to be similar to the National rule set. A personal opinion, only. But, is it not close to it now? If we in Ontario change to an SCCA rule set, and the Nationals do not, then what?

I have to admit, if Ontario Region ever went to the SCCA rules, it sure would make everyone's job, from the Director on down, WAY easier. If a question were tabled, the Solo Director would give the appropriate interpretation, and if anything further were needed, the information request would be forwarded to the SCCA SEB. And, the only parts of the rulebook that would need to be modified would be the safety sections.

[Tashko]

Personally, I would like to see the Ontario Region rules to be similar to the National rule set. A personal opinion, only. But, is it not close to it now? If we in Ontario change to an SCCA rule set, and the Nationals do not, then what?


That was my point of having all the Regional rules match the National rules. If Ontario goes SCCA are people going to prep to the SCCA level or the Canadian Nationals prep level? The Nationals will end up being everyone else except for Ontario (kind of like this year:()

Anybody bored and want to do a side by side spreadsheet comparing the classing and how they match up? :eek:

[Doug Phillips]

Personally, I would like to see the Ontario Region rules to be similar to the National rule set. A personal opinion, only. But, is it not close to it now? If we in Ontario change to an SCCA rule set, and the Nationals do not, then what?

I have to admit, if Ontario Region ever went to the SCCA rules, it sure would make everyone's job, from the Director on down, WAY easier. If a question were tabled, the Solo Director would give the appropriate interpretation, and if anything further were needed, the information request would be forwarded to the SCCA SEB. And, the only parts of the rulebook that would need to be modified would be the safety sections.


I agree that Ontario rules should for car prep should be the same as the our National rules. I believe they are the same now other the PAX numbers are different for some reason. I think the Nationals rules were created based on Ontario rules a few years ago. Now Ontario is waiting for the National rules.

Does anyone know when the Naional rules are expected to be decided/released? Are they leaning towards SCCA?

Hopefully there would be some consideration for grandfathering or minor changes in prep as our recent camber changes in SS class allowed me to spend quite a bit of money on upper control arms that are not legal in SCCA SP. Camber is camber, it should not matter how you get it.

I don't know if the jobs would be easier. I think the process now is the same as what you said for following SCCA except the Director forwards the question to CAC TAC.

[Doug Phillips]

One reason to stay away from the SCCA rules would be car prep and the overall championship.

As you have said there are very few serious guys around that prep their cars to the maximum allowed for the class. Moving to SCCA rules would make that gap even larger and we would not be able to realistically continue with an overall champion by PAX.

[Pete@Marcor]

That was my point of having all the Regional rules match the National rules. If Ontario goes SCCA are people going to prep to the SCCA level or the Canadian Nationals prep level? The Nationals will end up being everyone else except for Ontario (kind of like this year:()

Anybody bored and want to do a side by side spreadsheet comparing the classing and how they match up? :eek:

I don't think that we can force anyone to run a set of rules. How would we feel if the National board decided tell us which rule set to run? It is up to the Regions to decide if they want to align themselves with the National rule set.

I actually was thinking about some stuff last night. Firstly, I don't see more than a couple of strong opinions pushing us to the SCCA rule set. If we do move how will that affect the general competitor?

As Doug mentioned, the top 35 competitors were the ones who competed in 6 events. Of those, 17 were in Stock classes. And now, we are considering moving to a rule set that will most affect the Stock cars. Does this make sense?

I wonder if the discussions and complaining will continue, if we actually do move to SCCA rules.

I find it only a little humorous that we have so much complaining about the rules, and then only 8-10 people show up to give input at the end of year meeting.

[13inches]

I don't think that we can force anyone to run a set of rules. How would we feel if the National board decided tell us which rule set to run? It is up to the Regions to decide if they want to align themselves with the National rule set.

I actually was thinking about some stuff last night. Firstly, I don't see more than a couple of strong opinions pushing us to the SCCA rule set. If we do move how will that affect the general competitor?

As Doug mentioned, the top 35 competitors were the ones who competed in 6 events. Of those, 17 were in Stock classes. And now, we are considering moving to a rule set that will most affect the Stock cars. Does this make sense?

I wonder if the discussions and complaining will continue, if we actually do move to SCCA rules.

I find it only a little humorous that we have so much complaining about the rules, and then only 8-10 people show up to give input at the end of year meeting.8-10 out of 35 seems like a decent turnout to me.

[thekid]

8-10 out of 35 seems like a decent turnout to me.

Not bad, but what about all the people that claim to be not competing in part because of the rules... if they make up 3-4 of the 10 people, then the turnout isn't so great afterall.

[miataboi]

Not bad, but what about all the people that claim to be not competing in part because of the rules... if they make up 3-4 of the 10 people, then the turnout isn't so great afterall.

I regularly attend these meetings.
I attended last year, even tho I had no intention of running the series this year.

I will attend the meeting this year as well.
Why?
Becaue I love this sport... and want the best for it in this region...

HOWEVER.

The year end meeting... is not where things get decided. It's just an in-person version of this thread. It just seperates those who are bored at work and have opinions from those who care to spend some of their weekend discussing it.

The people talk... you get different opinions... and then the Director goes away and implements whatever they wish.

In an effort to avoid conflict - often a compromise is made.
Without a clear purpose for the meeting... and with time constraints... it becomes of limited value.

Before this meeting - a CASC-OR solo 2 vision and mission statement need to be created and worked backwards from in forming the series.

The SCCA ruleset will NOT affect the Stock cars the most.. not even close... are you serious??????? Just get a set of diff. tires for your stock rims... and use your current "race rims" for your streets. DONE... worst care - you buy a front swaybar.

It's SS and SP that get unsettled with SCCA rules... but it's in the best long-term interest of the sport in Canada.

There are a lot of vocal parties... and some have chimed in here... and IMHO - Doug and Andrew are not normall vocal... so if they've chimed in.. it's worth noting...

Most of the people who are disgruntled - have left... look at attendance.
Only the passionate ones (or stubborn or stupid) are still left.


This needs direction... it's not a pure democracy where every opinion is eqully valued. Some people are so myopic and self-serving it's sickening...

Start with the mission and vision... work down.. then consider things like x-border competition workingn both ways... and elevating profile, campetitor base and talent.

This is not a club series.
And te point of making running the series easier / less burdomsome... is a VERY valid one. Believe me... there is no one stepping up or waving their hand for Wes' job. There's a reason.

Move to SCCA rules and align nationally and "continentally" and I'll gladly play here... and in Ottawa... and in Quebec... and Nationally... and a couple in the 'states.. and maybe even Topeka!

Imagine a scene where 15 - 20 of us canucks venture south when there aren't ant CASC solo's on... and we go down and capture 10-15 class wins / trophy spots! WOW! Imagine the buzz... the Canadians come down and whoop US butt!

[Pete@Marcor]

HOWEVER.

The year end meeting... is not where things get decided. It's just an in-person version of this thread. It just seperates those who are bored at work and have opinions from those who care to spend some of their weekend discussing it.

The people talk... you get different opinions... and then the Director goes away and implements whatever they wish.

In an effort to avoid conflict - often a compromise is made.
Without a clear purpose for the meeting... and with time constraints... it becomes of limited value.


I do agree that once the meeting is over, the director goes away, and does what he feels is appropriate. However, a few things to note here. We elected the Director. Or, our clubs did. So, we have to live with that dictatorship for the next 2 years. Second, not too many people offer their assistance to actually do that job.

Before this meeting - a CASC-OR solo 2 vision and mission statement need to be created and worked backwards from in forming the series.

The SCCA ruleset will NOT affect the Stock cars the most.. not even close... are you serious??????? Just get a set of diff. tires for your stock rims... and use your current "race rims" for your streets. DONE... worst care - you buy a front swaybar.

It's SS and SP that get unsettled with SCCA rules... but it's in the best long-term interest of the sport in Canada.

Ok, fair enough. I wonder how many SS and SP guys will change the prep on their cars, though?



There are a lot of vocal parties... and some have chimed in here... and IMHO - Doug and Andrew are not normall vocal... so if they've chimed in.. it's worth noting...

Most of the people who are disgruntled - have left... look at attendance.
Only the passionate ones (or stubborn or stupid) are still left.


This needs direction... it's not a pure democracy where every opinion is eqully valued. Some people are so myopic and self-serving it's sickening... .


Meaning?



Start with the mission and vision... work down.. then consider things like x-border competition workingn both ways... and elevating profile, campetitor base and talent.

This is not a club series.
And te point of making running the series easier / less burdomsome... is a VERY valid one. Believe me... there is no one stepping up or waving their hand for Wes' job. There's a reason.

Move to SCCA rules and align nationally and "continentally" and I'll gladly play here... and in Ottawa... and in Quebec... and Nationally... and a couple in the 'states.. and maybe even Topeka!

Imagine a scene where 15 - 20 of us canucks venture south when there aren't ant CASC solo's on... and we go down and capture 10-15 class wins / trophy spots! WOW! Imagine the buzz... the Canadians come down and whoop US butt!

I used to regularly attend US events. Time more than anything else is the reason I do not run very many any more. It was unrelated to the differences in rules. I just did not place that high of importance on those events. It is the same reason that I am unlikely to attend a National event that is more than 10 hours of driving away from my home.

[miataboi]

Seems that everyone has their own agenda...

All I can hope for now then it seems... is national and regional ruleset alignment.

I will not comment on this matter any further unless someone asks me specifically.

[Doug Phillips]

It is a shame that he guys deciding on the National direction do not come forward. Why is the not a forum for National discussions? Can his not be added to the ASN site. How do all the other regionla feel about this?

I would have to change my car to demod what I spent money on this year as it sure ain't close to MOD.

[Tashko]

This is all pointing back to "What is the Regionals about?" question.

I would agree with Jeff that a mission needs to be defined for the Regionals. If it's part of a ladder system to progress from Club->Regionals->Nationals->Topeka then it would make sense to use SCCA rules. I'm ranking Topeka as the top step in Solo2 and Club events as "run what ya brung." If you break the link from Topeka then there is no reason to use SCCA rule.

I don't care if we go to SCCA rules now or later. I'd prefer now so I don't spend more money prepping my car to a rule-set that will be obsolete in two years.

[Pete@Marcor]

Seems that everyone has their own agenda...

All I can hope for now then it seems... is national and regional ruleset alignment.

I will not comment on this matter any further unless someone asks me specifically.

Hmm. I have always thought that the Solo Committee was around for the bettering of the sport. It never occurred to me that the perception was that the Solo Committee was there to serve their own needs.

Since the National and Regional rules are approximately aligned now, I can only assume that you mean that you want both to run under SCCA rules?

[Pete@Marcor]

This is all pointing back to "What is the Regionals about?" question.

I would agree with Jeff that a mission needs to be defined for the Regionals. If it's part of a ladder system to progress from Club->Regionals->Nationals->Topeka then it would make sense to use SCCA rules. I'm ranking Topeka as the top step in Solo2 and Club events as "run what ya brung." If you break the link from Topeka then there is no reason to use SCCA rule.

I don't care if we go to SCCA rules now or later. I'd prefer now so I don't spend more money prepping my car to a rule-set that will be obsolete in two years. I think my ESP car ends up in EP where you can basically strip everything out of the car!

I am getting the feeling that I really am out of touch with what the average, or even above average competitor wants out of a Regional Series. I don't think we had much more response to the "What are Regionals about?" thread, so I suppose that can be slightly forgiven.

I honetly like the current rules. That seems to be out of the ordinary, based upon the majority of the posts in this thread.

If nothing else, the annual meeting for rules discussion is sure to be a hot one.

[13inches]

Here's some more opinions (datapoints?) on the discussion:

http://www.wpg-autox.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10290

[Doug Phillips]

I am getting the feeling that I really am out of touch with what the average, or even above average competitor wants out of a Regional Series. I don't think we had much more response to the "What are Regionals about?" thread, so I suppose that can be slightly forgiven.

I honetly like the current rules. That seems to be out of the ordinary, based upon the majority of the posts in this thread.

If nothing else, the annual meeting for rules discussion is sure to be a hot one.

Nothing significantly with the current rules, other than I still have to follow arround those skinny ass rally cars. :o

Hopefully there will be a little notice for the meeting so people can plan accordingly.

It would still be of value to understand what the National guys are thinking before the meeting.

[Slowpoke]

I am getting the feeling that I really am out of touch with what the average, or even above average competitor wants out of a Regional Series. I don't think we had much more response to the "What are Regionals about?" thread, so I suppose that can be slightly forgiven.

I could puff my chest out and swear that I wouldn't participate in a series that was changed for the vocal few for SCCA alignment... but honestly I'm too passionate, stupid or stubborn to actually not show up because of that.

I don't see myself running any full Solo2 series (club, regional, or SCCA) next year, due to focusing on SoloSprint and learning to drive in the dirt. Thus, I feel that I shouldn't be voicing an opinion at the year end meeting on how I personally want it to change.

I thought our current rules are generally fine... with some refinements due on certain mods that are over-penalized. I would like if those rules and the National ruleset aligned perfectly, but I don't see that as essential if the National process is too slow. I think that having Ontario provide a good series locally is the first priority of a Regional series, and we shouldn't tie ourselves to an anchor.

I don't think that we should go to SCCA rules unless we get a voice on how those rules are changed. Same as any other region in the U.S. would get. I don't know the SCCA structure and what that would mean, but I imagine that if we have no input whatsoever, we'll eventually have people upset with the rules (again) and the region will only have the option of sticking with SCCA and unhappy participants or going to a separate ruleset again and starting to build from scratch.

[Tashko]

I don't think that we should go to SCCA rules unless we get a voice on how those rules are changed. Same as any other region in the U.S. would get.

I believe all that is needed is SCCA membership to be able to submit rule suggestions for their review board.

If the five regions approached the CAC with a unified position on a ruleset wouldn't the CAC have to adopt that rule-set or face not having a Nationals? If that rule-set was SCCA we'd be one big happy continent...well, at least we'd have consistent classing. :)

CACC - http://www.caccautosport.org - SCCA
WCMA - http://www.wcma.ca - CAC
CASC-OR - CAC
FSAQ - http://www.fsaq.qc.ca - SCCA
ARMS - http://www.armsinc.ca - CAC

If we were to go to SCCA what would it really mean for a maxed out car in Stock, SS & SP? How many people are actually maxed out in the families?

Until something happens, I'll be maxing out in SP and be a little under-prepped in SCCA's SM when State-side. Depending on my experience in the US next year, my focus may shift towards SCCA classing and Topeka vs. CAC and our Nationals.

Could we get SCCA to change to SCCNA to make it more palatable?:D

[J.C.]

Since we are just throwing out ideas, may I suggest that we set a specific time (like 10 minutes) for vehicles unable to run because of a mechanical malfunction to remedy their problem or they loose that turn. As it is now and as it was at CAC you basically get until the end of your run group to get it going or you loose your turn. That is extremely unfair for the higher numbered cars as they get a small window for repair and the lower numbered cars may get half an hour or more.


P.S. I mention this to Terry from ASN at CAC and he said that made alot of sense and he would look into it. Any news?

[Coedmusic]

I don't care if we go to SCCA rules now or later. I'd prefer now so I don't spend more money prepping my car to a rule-set that will be obsolete in two years.

I've been involved with SoloII for 12 years (remember Steven T winning the PITL series with an old grey accord!?!). Something we need to remember is that this sport goes in cycles and that participation rises and falls at times without ANYTHING being wrong with the ruleset. The 1st thing that happens after low turnout years is a rush to fix/change the rules.

That being said....

To elaborate on Tashko's comment above: Obviously drivers prepping for SS, SP, and MOD have much greater expenses involved in trying to prep to the limit and stand the most to lose when we start monkeying with classing. Whereas a stock class driver who has little or no room to change anything anyway has much less at stake.

imho consistency from year to year is a huge factor.
I agree with Pete that there aren't many cars prepped to the max and I'm a good example of why that is. Spent $$$ modding my car to run ESS, and due to an unforseen rule change(camber plates) got bumped to ESP. Decided to max out my suspension last year and got a decision regarding one mod that meant I now had to go to D-Mod. A decision that was NOT clear when talking to several other ESP drivers at the end of the previous season. At the same time the commitee reversed the camber plate rule and I could have easily and cheaply altered the car to run in ESS, the class I had originally tried to be fully prepped in!!??!

btw: How does a street legal full interior car with suspension mods and only minor power mods (cat-back, pullies, and mass air meter) end up in MOD?? (But that's for another discussion)

So for most of my seasons the car has been under prepped for the class I wound up in. I think Doug's example is close to the same thing. Can you do the mod or not and when do you find out?? And if rules get "fixed" every couple of years it's not easy and sometimes very expensive to keep an SS, SP, or MOD car maxed out in a class.

I personally thought that Hanif's experiment in classing at HADA this year was very interesting. Using SoloSprint's power and suspension indexing but flipping the weighting so 70% suspension and 30% power made a lot of sense. BUT that would be a huge change and there would be no end to the complaining...too bad no one thought of it 4 or 5 years ago. Also, it would not line up with SCCA BUT you could prep your car for whatever SCCA class you wanted and you would still be competitive here because it was based on power to weight, and suspension capabilities not just prep points.

[Pete@Marcor]

I would expect that we will be having a workshop for the ONTARIO Regional Solo 2 series to be within the next 2 weeks. It is likely to be held in Oakville.

If you have a topic that you would like to have discussed at the workshop, please email Wes at solo2guy@sympatico.ca .

Since the evening will be pretty full of items, there will not be any opportunity to introduce new topics at the meeting, unless they have been submitted to Wes for discussion.

[sjd]

I would expect that we will be having a workshop for the ONTARIO Regional Solo 2 series to be within the next 2 weeks. It is likely to be held in Oakville.

If you have a topic that you would like to have discussed at the workshop, please email Wes at solo2guy@sympatico.ca .

Since the evening will be pretty full of items, there will not be any opportunity to introduce new topics at the meeting, unless they have been submitted to Wes for discussion.

Will a list of topics be posted before the meeting?

[Pete@Marcor]

Will a list of topics be posted before the meeting?

I cannot imagine that would be a problem. Why?

[sjd]

Just so if there is anything not covered I can email Wes and add it to the list.

[JoeT]

If possible, please post a list of topics and agenda for the proposed Solo Meeting. We understand that it maybe full already but we "the general attendees" should be aware of the topics so we can "intelligently" support or counter the items on the table.

Some of us would like to gather the opinions of our respective clubs so we can represent them accordingly.

If possible, meetings with this type of short notice will be difficult for club execs to gather information.

Example:

Day 1: Agenda Items Published by CASC
Day 1.5: Topics published by Club Execs to members for opinions, adds, changes (This should remain for 1.5 weeks to acquire input from the membership)
Week 1.5+1: Summary of opinions generated by the execs
Week 2: Representation by clubs to the CASC meeting

If the items are published immediately, this may work out. It's only fair to acquire the opinion and voice of the membership before we represent them... No?

Of course, this is assuming that input is required, and there are items to vote on.

[sjd]

If possible, please post a list of topics and agenda for the proposed Solo Meeting. We understand that it maybe full already but we "the general attendees" should be aware of the topics so we can "intelligently" support or counter the items on the table.

Some of us would like to gather the opinions of our respective clubs so we can represent them accordingly.

Thanks Joe, That's what I was trying to say but wasn't smart enough to. That's what I get for posting on the fly. :)

[max attack]

I agree that our rules ain't so bad imo,like I said before they seem to have promoted much closer class battles than the last ruleset.If things that don't offer a performance improvement and only improve the safety/longevity of drivetrain componets can be done without getting bumped to a higher class that would get my vote.
Also I believe that camber plates should be allowed starting in SS,some cars are able to acheive more camber than others and having plates to equalize the performance potencial should increase class battles.
I'm ok with the rules as is or a change completely BUT if there's to be a complete change it needs to be known very quickly.December in my mind would have to be the deadline,that way christmas gifts can be arranged for etc!:D
I'm prepping my car as if the current ruleset will remain and will continue to make it as light as possible.If mod rules changed to include weight minimums or other limitations to allowed engine mods etc they need to be decided on and posted asap.

[Tashko]

I have no problem with our rules either. I just think it would be nice to have consistent rules across the Regions and Nationals so why not also be common with the US.

It will be an interesting meeting for sure and my first. I'm curious how many issues people will have with rules that I have never thought about because they don't affect me (yet). :eek:

Just an FYI, according to the ARMS forum, on their agenda is a discussion about adopting SCCA rules from 2008.

[Slowpoke]

I wonder how much SCCA membership would cost for all of Canada so that we can submit ruling requests to the SCCA? Will it require every individual to have SCCA membership as well? Will SCCA reps have to come to our Nationals instead of Terry Epp? Will we have to pay the expenses of both?

If you think we can do it without joining the SCCA, that's akin to Quebec declaring itself a separate country while still using the Canadian dollar. :rolleyes: Flame on.

[Tashko]

I wonder how much SCCA membership would cost for all of Canada so that we can submit ruling requests to the SCCA? Will it require every individual to have SCCA membership as well? Will SCCA reps have to come to our Nationals instead of Terry Epp? Will we have to pay the expenses of both?

If you think we can do it without joining the SCCA, that's akin to Quebec declaring itself a separate country while still using the Canadian dollar. :rolleyes: Flame on.

Don't worry, I'll get SCCA membership and I'll forward any questions/comments regarding the rules you have. ;)

Whoever becomes Ontario Solo Director can have membership and ask on the competitors behalf or Ontario could become one of the SCCA regions like New England, etc. It can begin our slow recapture of North America...muahahah! How does FSAQ do it?

A country can use any currency they want but they wouldn't be able to control it. When Quebec separates they would have to arrange some monetary policy with Canada just like EU states "manage" the Euro...as long as we can still have poutine on this side of the border, it's cool with me. Oh, I want my passport stamped when I cross. Eventually we'll have the CU (Canadian Union) when Newfoundland and the western provinces separate. (I'm certain that Scotland will continue to use the Pound Stirling when it gains independence for a few years before switching to the Euro.)

Our Nationals would still be our Nationals (assuming CAC adopts whatever rules the Regions choose). If CAC says no way then the Regions get together and rename our Nationals to "Canadian Solo Nationals" and it's run as a big Autoslalom event like Slalom@Slemon(sp?) alternating between East and West or stationary somewhere in the middle.

BTW, yes I'm very bored at work...

[jsirota]

Don't worry, I'll get SCCA membership and I'll forward any questions/comments regarding the rules you have. ;)

Whoever becomes Ontario Solo Director can have membership and ask on the competitors behalf or Ontario could become one of the SCCA regions like New England, etc. It can begin our slow recapture of North America...muahahah! How does FSAQ do it?



Interesting thread, but i will refrain from commenting on it other than saying that we've been through this whole painful process a few years ago. In Quebec, there really is no official process for official SCCA rule clarifications/changes, because since adopting the rules, it put an end all debates, bitching, whining about rules... Now, having said that, there could be a more formal process implemented where the regional director (or other) filters, answers and forwards official requests to the SCCA. Another huge advantage of using SCCA rules, there are tons of internet ressources that can answer most if not all of your questions (eg: sccaforums.com, or plenty marque internet clubs out there for the more popular cars used in Solo competition).

Also, FYI... as it stands today, SCCA will recognize an ASN Canada affiliated club membership for participation in their National Tours and Nationals. We've had 24 locals invade the Devens National Tour in June (it was counted as a club championship points event) and were more than welcomed there. And we were 13 in Kansas later in the year. So there is a good chance that the SCCA folks wont mind us asking about rules either. Something like this may need to be made a little more official, but it's definetely possible.

Jean Sirota
Team CAC Technical Advisory Comitee member

[Pete@Marcor]

As a follow up to this thread, the annual workshop to discuss next year's rules changes will be at the Sheridan College, Davis Campus, 7899 McLaughlin Road, Brampton (McLaughlin and Steeles), Room B116.

Please submit your requests for additions to the agenda to Wes.

The meeting will be on November 21st from 7 - 10pm. There will not be any food at the event, so I would suggest that you either eat before or arrive a little early, and take your chances at the cafeteria food.

See all of you there.

[JoeT]

The SPDA list has been forwarded.

Thank You

[Doug Phillips]

I have sent in two questions for the meeting.

It might be a good idea if someone posted the meeting in a separate thread with a sticky.