solo 1 is poor and club money

[ADAM]

hi guys,
i am not sure how the relationship of the clubs like HADA or BAC or TAC..or whatever...is....but solo 1 for the amount of people that are coming out to it is ....well pretty sad money wise....


we really NEED a car transponder system, and every time this is brought up..the issue of MONEY comes up..we don't have any.. its to expensive ect.,.....


we really NEED our own 2 way radios...why in the heck are we renting this stuff? can anyone tell me this....

now....up until this point i though that the clubs were poor as well..but it has come to my attention that the clubs may be holding considerable amounts of money? while the series as a whole is crying poor.....

is this true? if so ..are the clubs a bunch of money holding companies..and investment firms....what are the clubs real functions? or am i missing something?

anyone know?

i think this should be addressed and we should get into the year 2000 with our equipment....

what about some solo 1 weight scales...how about a solo 1 pyrometer....these are some basic racing tools......

i guess what i am asking is what responsibility do the clubs have to the sport? AND how much money do the clubs make from the sport..and how much are the OBLIGATED to put back in....

[Dave]

Adam, we'll talk this weekend...

[Christian Sorensen]

Sounds to me like we have a new volunteer for BAC rep on the Solo 1 Committee!

You are a BAC member, right, Adam?

You (and all Solo competitors) are certainly welcome to come to the Committee meetings (second thursday of the month, 7:00Pm at the CASC-OR office) and find out all you ever would want to know about Solo finances.

I'll address a couple of your points now, tho:

1) Transponder systems are expensive. Really expensive.

That said, there is some breaking news on the CASC-OR front on this issue. The Race Director, Gunter Schmidt, has just brokered a deal to bring in the 'industry-standard' AMB TransX 260 transponder system for Regional Racing in 2003.

I will copy his email from earlier today to this forum, but the gist of it is that racers will be able to buy a wired-in unit at an 'early-bird' special price of USD $221 + taxes by April 1 or to rent a battery-operated unit for CDN $80 per weekend.

Timing loops for Shannonville and Mosport Big Track will be laid down in time for the 2003 season.

It is POSSIBLE, but not promised, for Solo 1 to use this system as well. The basic system costs ~30K with only a few battery-operated transponders. From what I understand from Gunter there are enough licences to operate the system simultaneously on two different tracks on the same weekend.

However, loops would have to be buried in the tracks wherever it is to be used, and a method devised to integrate its results with our scoring system. Could this be used for Solo 1 in 2003? I'm not sure it'd be feasible.

There are obvious benefits to using a transponder system, especially one that would be compatible for drivers who want to cross over to race in CASC-OR or other series.

2) 2-way radios? You're welcome to help find us something that will be a worthwhile investment and to help me persuade the OSO clubs to buy into it. I presume we'd need radios more robust and functional than FRS sets.

3) Weigh scales... what for? Oh... I get it! You're on the Classification Committee now, aren't you? Hmmmmmm.

4) Pyrometer? You're kidding, right?

In truth there probably are worthwhile investments for Solo to be making. No, our funds aren't limitless, and the parties who hold the purse-strings will need to be sweet-talked.

Chris Sorensen, the guy who was left standing looking around when the nominations for Solo 1 Director ended.

[ADAM]

re: bac...yes i am in bac...i think john blennerhasset is the solo 1 rep ...no? i really don't know much about it..i am more than willing to do or help out where i can...i don't know anything about the politics of the whole thing..but if asked will do whatever i can to help the sport..


re: radios...my wife works at motorola..if someone could give me the part numbers of what radios we would need i can see what kind of prices i can get from her at work...of course motorola ones :)


$221 us sounds fine to me...where do i sign up..in fact we should just enforce that everyone buy these things...or matter of fact...SOLO 1 should by some and rent them out..and make tons of money....

WE are a "long term" sport and organization.....no? we should think in those terms with purchases...this whole renting thing is costly..

maybe kyoto will come and get us as well... :)

[Dave]

The OTC used AMB transponders and I have to say it was a very impressive system. As far as I know, there were zero timing errors and zero delays due to timing glitches or lack of robusticity. I got a chance to sit down a look at the software one day and it was extremely user friendly. All windows based, very intuitive, even Adam could run the thing! I will contact NASA and the OTC organizers to find out what software they were using and how much it costs.

If each OSO club bought two UHF radios (like the ones we use at Shannonville) and Adam's wife (who works for Motorola) hooks us up with a discount, we'd have 8 radios total, which should cover us for any Solo 1 weekend and each club could borrow the full set for lapping days, Solo 2 events, etc. I'm sure HADA would be willing to go along with this if the other OSO clubs find the idea appealing. And if you do a quick search on ebay.ca, you will find lots of used UHF radios for sale.

BTW, we want UHF, not VHF or FRS. UHF has the best range and can penetrate solid objects so they function well in timing towers, support vehicles, etc. The other nice thing about UHF is that they can be programmed for a specific wave length where they can speak to each other without interference from other radios in the area. But they're not cheap...$600+ for a new and fairly basic UHF, though I've seen a full set of 6 used ones on ebay.ca for $1k.

I don't think Solo 1 needs weigh scales or pyrometers, but a more robust timing system would be high on my wish list for sure. And radios, though cheaply and easily rented, wouldn't be a bad investment either IMO.

Food for thunking...

Dave

[Dave]

Adam, in terms of radios we'd be looking for something like the Motorola CTR Series of two-way radios, something like the CT-150 (which is both UHF and VHF capable). Check out the brochure at...

http://www.motorola.com/cgiss/docs/ct150_catsheet.pdf

The other option, like I mentioned before, is buying used. There's a place in Burlington that sells used two-way radios and advertises on ebay.ca. Here's an example...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1941834824

[ice/solo racer]

As a guy trying to get into solo one next year,I wouldn't want to be forced to buy a transponder for around $400 cnd OR rent one at $80 bucks.With entry fees at $220 bucks,a 5 to 7.5 hour round trip tow(around $125 fuel)accomadations,food etc.etc.etc,I'm still trying to find a way just to update my car to even have a prayer of being competitive.
If Adam wants to buy me one I'd be incredibly grateful,BTW I don't have scales but in my opinion trying to setup chassis's and fine tune tire pressures without a tire pyrometer is like adjusting toe in with a sledge hammer-sure you can do but how well is it done?

[Chris P]

A tire pyrometer??? I agree with C.S. on that one. You really gotta be kidding!! That is a drivers expence, if you want to setup your car then buy one.

scales, your looking at $4000 for a complete rack, although i'm not sure why SOLO 1 needs it...............

[B18C5]

d00dz... you know how much cooler the transponder system made OTC? Okay, it wasn't just the transponders, there were a lot of things. Each car got 4 20 minute sessions. You went on the sessions with a handful of other cars. You sorta gridded yourself how you thought would be cool, usually with the faster cars in front. Then you all went out, passed when you had to pass (as long as it wasn't under braking) and got your lap times. If you had to pit you pit. If you could get back out you could get back out. Everything was cool.

I don't know how practical it would be to do something like that here. Insurance would probably be a killer. So would inexperienced drivers. Not literally, but yeah. The thing about OTC is we got a lot of track time with little fuss. <sigh> My lithium prescription just ran out. Anyone want to join me on a trip to Cali? Heheh.

[ice/solo racer]

Hey Chris as your one of the fast guys I could almost excuse the snide remarks about using a pyrometer,why stay in the days of chalking sidewalls(tells you didley about the inside edge of tire!)and running your hand over the face of the tire(like your hand can tell the perfect 5 degree warmer inside edge).
BTW I do have one,and I wasn't implying that solo 1 should have to pass around,I was refering to what sounded like Chris Saying pyrometers are unneeded,if I'm getting the wrong message about that than fine.
I take my set-up and driving very seriously and I'm constantly in search of improving both and this is just one of the tools that should be in everybodys tool box.
BTW I don't intend to sound like a dink just as I'm sure nobody else on the forum intends to but sometimes does.:)

[Shaman]

The written word often doesn't lend itself to conversation.

[ice/solo racer]

Well said Shaman.

[Chris P]

What I was saying is that the preparation of ones car and the tools needed are the driver’s responsibility and not the organizing body.

[GR8 Ride]

As to Solo 1 radios, I just bought 10 ICOM UHF radios (two channel, with programmable digital sub-channels for interference free operation).

Grand total for the BMW Club was about $6,000, taxes and all.

This included headsets, Ni-MH batteries as opposed to Ni-Cd ones, and two 6-bay rapid chargers instead of the single rapid chargers that each unit came with.

Had we stuck to the *standard* ICOM unit, it would have run us about $400 per radio. Model # is IC-F21/S. 4 watts as opposed to the 2 watt of the equivalent Motorola radio.

It has an easy 5 mile (yes, mile) range, but I'd suspect it's even longer than that. We've used them with no issues at Mosport, from the bottom of turn 4 and can hear and transmit to the tower with ease.

Lakeshore Electronics supplied us with these, and after much comparison with the Motorola products, I went this way (Lakeshore is the one of the largest Motorola dealers in the area).

As to pyrometers, I have to agree with Christian on that one. It's an individual driver's tool, not necessarily a Solo 1 tool. A decent pyrometer can be had for about $100 USD. If you want to use one to gain an advantage on your competition, that's up to you. But I fail to see how Solo1 should provide them.


Pat

[ADAM]

ok ok..on the scales and pyrometer....i just thought that sinec there is a large group of racers...it would make senses for the series to have these tools instead of all 50 competitors going out and buying them....

FYI.. digital scales only cost 1k usd...



if i had my way..solo 1 would have its own dedicated race building with a fully operational shop..... :)

[Chris P]

Originally posted by ADAM


FYI.. digital scales only cost 1k usd...




Isn't that what i said? By the time you get it here, 2K for the scales and another 2k for a rack....... CDN :) Maybe, i'm +- 500, who gives a ****. :eek:

[ADAM]

relax my friend...take a deep breath..and take a break from studying....


i saw a set of scales on sale for 998...i might just pick those up for my own use...

[ADAM]

re: motorola radios ct-150's

i spoke to my wife and they are NOT part of thier employee purchase plan...

the ct-150 UHF is $558cdn...and the VHF is $504cdn....so not a good deal...PLUS you need a licence to operate them....!!!

she suggested the lower cost FRS radios..she is getting me the specs on those units...plus she gets a deal on these units...will advise..

[GR8 Ride]

There are a number of publicly available (and used) frequencies which don't require a radio license to use.

There are only about 12 frequencies, so you can imagine how busy those get. However, with a radio that supports the digital sub-channels (essentially a private digital code which is transmitted on the same carrier) you can use public frequencies without having to worry about interference from Bob's Pizza delivery service.

Most of the Motorola radios I've looked at have been overpriced in comparison to ICOM et al. If Solo 1 is seriously looking for radios, there are a number of options to look at.


Pat

[Triumphracer]

To change the subject a bit....I would appreciate advice on pyrometers as I am considering buying one.

My understanding is that there are two types, a probe type which is dug into the tread and measures core temperature, and the infra red type for tread surface. My guess would be that the latter would be more useful as we only do a few laps at a time unlike endurance racers who are concerned with longer term durability.
The question then is if we do a cool-down lap is the reading not largely meaningless by the time we get back in? Will it also not be a reflection of the speed and direction of the last corner, or is the info still useful on a comparative if not an absolute basis?
Anyone who uses them please advise..thanks!

[ADAM]

christian,
have we considered having a few solo 1 ..."fund raisers" in the winter...and we could put the money towards a transponder system?

if we could raise money that would help?

i mean we have 50+ people with "some money" in this series....and we could maybe have a fun night out and do something and raise money as well?

[GR8 Ride]

Originally posted by Triumphracer
To change the subject a bit....I would appreciate advice on pyrometers as I am considering buying one.

My understanding is that there are two types, a probe type which is dug into the tread and measures core temperature, and the infra red type for tread surface. My guess would be that the latter would be more useful as we only do a few laps at a time unlike endurance racers who are concerned with longer term durability.
The question then is if we do a cool-down lap is the reading not largely meaningless by the time we get back in? Will it also not be a reflection of the speed and direction of the last corner, or is the info still useful on a comparative if not an absolute basis?
Anyone who uses them please advise..thanks!

Of the two, an infrared pyrometer is essentially useless when it comes to managed tire temps, as it's range is far too wide to be able to specifically target any portion of the tire.

So, the first step is to look at a decent, probe type pyrometer.

Yes, cool-down laps tend to make the function of a pyrometer *less* than perfectly effective, as does the layout of the track (pit out at the Mosport Grand Prix track happens at the end of a long straight...which tends to cool tires off significantly).

For Cayuga (TMP) and Shannonville, it can be more useful. Perhaps not specifically during the Solo 1 sessions, but at open lapping days or during open lapping sessions in the morning or afternoon after the runs are done. One can check tire temps (interior, middle and exterior) after a *hot run*, and coordinate this with tire pressures to properly set up your car for the race(s) later that day, or that weekend.


Pat

[LateApex]

Changes to suspension settings, air pressures etc. etc. will still produce changes in tread temperature, regardless of the piece of track you've just run.

The temperature range may be lower if you've just come up the straight at Mosport, but you will still see changes relative to where you started out (if you drive in roughly the same manner).

Whether the range is high (hot) or low (cool), the real goal is to achieve somewhat "consistent" temps across the tread block, not some perceived "correct" temperature.

Or, you could just pull in on hot laps and have somebody log temps for you. Who says you have to take readings after a cool down lap?

My $.02......

Jordan

[GR8 Ride]

Track layout isn't irrelevant however. Yes, consistent temps across the entire tire is what we're all after, but if we look at a car which is race-prepped, and has significant negative camber both front and rear (say, -3.0 degrees or more), you're going to see a higher temp after a long straight on the inside portion of the tread than on the outside. This doesn't mean that your tire temps are poor, rather it's merely an indication of what your tires are doing on the piece of track in question.

The biggest thing to keep in mind with a pyrometer (and here is where the probe type is much better than the IR type) is to baseline some ranges for your car.

Using the example above, you know your inside tire temps are likely to be a little higher than the outside tire temps when you pull into pit row. Knowing this, you can take your temps and look for any outrageous signs one way or the other (say a 30F difference between inside and outside edges would indicate inflation, or possibly toe issues). If your temps vary 10-15F max from inside to out, then you're probably fine.

As always, lots of information is a good thing. However, it is important to ensure that information overload doesn't occur either. Constantly adjusting tire pressures to achieve the *perfect* tire temp can often cause a person to *tweak* themselves right out of contention....

A pyrometer is a good tool to have, but it ranks way down on my list of recommended upgrades for amateur racing.


Pat

[LateApex]

The biggest thing to keep in mind with a pyrometer...is to baseline some ranges for your car.

Once you've done that, track layout is indeed irrelevant.

You know you'll be driving the same piece of track every time prior to taking readings, so you compensate based on your baseline and the relative changes you've made.

If tracks where a long straight preceeds the pit lane were useless for taking pyrometer readings, nobody would be doing it.
Yet everybody still does.

Pyrometer readings are pyrometer readings. They are not more useful at one track vs. another. They are a tuning tool that allow people to take advantage of all the high-dollar adjustability out there.

[GR8 Ride]

Not entirely. At the end of the back straight at Mosport, your tires could have cooled off enough to read below *optimum* temperatures, even though they would have been at optimum temp when going through turns 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Part of the idea behind a pyrometer is to test tire temps when the tires are under the greatest load; coming into the pits after the long back straight will only show temps after a significant cool down period, and perhaps the stress of turn 8, depending on how hard one takes it.

It's not hard for the tires to cool off by 20-30 degrees F over the back straight. So, if you're reading 195F in pit row across the tire, you could easily be over-cooking the same tire (assuming a Toyo RA1, for example) around turn 5, as above 220F the Toyo's will start to go away slightly.

Pyrometers are good for baselining the temps, and ensuring that you're getting a reasonable temperature across the entire tread. But unless you have the ability to stop after each corner and test your tire temps, you'll never know if you're overcooking the tires on any particular corner.


Pat

[LateApex]

Gee, I guess somebody better call the tire company race engineers and let them know that the next time they come to Mosport, they can leave their pyrometers back at the shop......no use lugging redundant equipment around.....

:D

[GR8 Ride]

Yes, and you also know that they often will stop after various corners and take temps right there.

Also, we're dealing with people with an engineering background, whose business it is to engineer tires for street and race use. The knowledge they have of how their tire should react to a given car, ambient conditions and the layout of the track is something most weekend track junkies can't compare to.

The engineers could easily take a look at track layout (and probably determine that turns 2-5 is the hardest section on tires), judge the vehicle weight, HP, airflow and cooling of tires going up the backstraight, and make some fairly accurate judgements on temperature differentials between turn 5 and pit row. The average weekend track nut can't compare with this, as they simply don't know enough of the specific engineering that went into the tire to make the calculations.

We've had this discussion before...in case you've forgotten. :D

Back to my original point. The vast majority of Solo 1 participants, and driving school participants are of the showroom stock variety. Factory configured cars, often with minimal (if any) suspension adjustments available to them, running on DOT approved competition radials.

While a pyrometer may be useful in pointing out that their tires are heating up at different rates across the tread pattern, it's unlikely most people would have the tools, the skills and even the option of making appropriate suspension adjustments to correct the problem.

Once again, a pyrometer is a decent tool to have, but for any weekend racer who's looking for precious seconds off their time, I seriously doubt it's going to provide much help. (Unless the driver is so badly overcooking his/her tires that they come into the pits and their tires are at 300F...at which point they should have noticed the greasy feeling anyway). Without the knowledge to understand exactly what those temps mean, it's not a lot of use.

Pat

[LateApex]

I'm familiar with what engineers do. This is not about engineering calculations, however. It's about the most basic of chassis tuning, and tuning that is easily accessible by everyone.

The fact is that one of the most common (if not THE most common) adjustments that amateurs and pros alike will make at the trackside is camber.

Everyone can maximize contact patch, extend tire wear, and set ideal tire pressures by making simple camber adjustments. That's why camber plates are so popular.

All of the engineering education and expertise in the world cannot replace the basic fact that the only way to arrive at proper camber settings is to take tire temps.

That is done with a pyrometer. In the pits. At any track you choose.

[GR8 Ride]

Well, I'll dispute the camber adjustment settings at the track piece.

Messing around with camber (even with adjustable control arms and camber plates) at the track without any way to accurately measure camber can severely DEGRADE your cars handling, rather than enhancing it.

As little as 1/2 degree to much negative, especially on a side to side basis, and you can have severe tramlining on your next run. This means the driver spends more time fighting the car, and slows everything down.

Yes, with camber plates that are accurately marked (after testing, not just the engravings on most pieces), it's possible to adjust camber with some success. This tends to be a fairly seasoned person doing this though, and not the average weekend track junkie.

I'll still strongly recommend against anyone making trackside camber adjustments without some method of determining how severe a change you've made.

I have seen a couple of bolt-on camber measurement kits, but these are highly dependent upon an absolutely flat, level surface. Rather rare in most paddocks that I've seen.


Pat

[B18C5]

I don't recommend adjusting camber at the track, but for a different reason. I've never noticed major differences from relatively minor adjustments in camber only (like a degree or two). I haven't thought about how cars without wishbone suspensions would react, but when you adjust camber on a Honda it makes big changes in the toe. So by playing with the camber you will make the car do funny things like tramline... just not because of the change in camber.

Regardless of where you do your adjustments a pyrometer is the best way to check your alignment. I've found the best way to adjust alignment is to rough it at the track by making adjustments with camber, then fix the toe as much as you can, then do more laps, adjust... etc. How else can you adjust camber? Then when you're happy you can take it to an alignment rack, see what it looks like and round off the numbers and maybe equal out the left and right sides, cuz you've probably screwed them up pretty bad at the track.

[Chris P]

Geo, adjusting camber at the track is a perfectly good deal. Just make sure you have the tools to do the rest of the alignment.