Regional Solo 2 Vision and Mission

[miataboi]

Some ramblings...

Mission:
To provide an elevated level of competition in Ontario for autoslalom enthusiasts. Classing will be "tighter" and the rulebook will be followed and enforced, first and foremost.

The Goal of the Regional series is to allow the best Solo'ists in Ontario to rise to the top of their respective classes, as well as to provide a grounds for developing drivers to test themselves against the best in the province.


Vision:
A series consisting of the minimun number of events so as to be able to distinguish and seperate the top drivers. Drops should be allowed in the series, so as to accomodate different competitor's schedules and prior commitments as well as to reduce costs. (as cars do break down / fail and over-engineering a car for strictly for reliability is $$$) Suggested scoring 4/5 or 4/6 events.

Courses should comply with the rulebook and be flowing, on flat surfaces and allow adequate runoff space.

Ideally, the Ontario Regional ruleset should align with the National ruleset so as to enable competitors to participate at the national level if they see fit. Furthermore, alignment between Canada and the US SCCA ruleset is also encouraged so at to enable x-border competition in a 2-way manner. This will allow growth in the sport, promotion of the Ontario Region and Canadian events and permit greater promotional activities.

[JoeT]

Is this your campaign vision for next year when you run for Solo Director?

[miataboi]

no


SPDA president.

I want your job.
I'm coming for YOU!

:D

[JoeT]

no


SPDA president.

I want your job.
I'm coming for YOU!

:D


Cool, meaning you'll take Tony K's place as president. But that means you actually need to step up and do something.. LOL :D

[13inches]

I can't wait to hear everyone's ramblings at the workshop tonight!

[miataboi]

I won't be particularly vocal or passionate tonight - as I'm not competing regionally in '07... but here are my ramblings... so my views are known. I won't take up too much of the floor.


1. Changes to Overall Championship – Continue with PAX (pax numbers to be reviewed at a later date) or something new?

• How is PAX determined Nationally and Regionally?

- Use a shootout - one FWD car... and one RWD car... Best will shine. Top drivers will show their stuff. PAX doesn't necessarily mean that ALL of the top drivers are near the top... or have a chance to win... only 75% of legit. candidates are not in contention, in reality. Pax is still neat as an additional source of information... but it doesn not tell the whole story.

2. SoloOntario Shoot-out? Should it be reinstated?
• It has not been budgeted for in the 2007 budget.

Yes - use it as the finale for deciding overall.
Historically... the better drivers to rise to these occasions and the stratification of drivers is tellng.

Why hasn't it been budgeted? This years was cancelled due to a one-time lack of '06 series participation. The goal of the series when in need of growth should NOT be to cater to the existing competitors... but to make it appealing to potential competitors. It needs to be marketable to the 10x greater polulation of past participants and talent dormant in Ontario. (for the good of the sport)


3. Series Issues - Changes to the way the series itself is run;
• Number of events revisited 4, 6, 8, 10?
-3/4 or 4-5 / 6
-minimum committment to be able to achieve the goal of the regional series.

• Use of double header weekends

-only if there is a lot worthy... and if there are enough drops to allow missing the weekend (for prior engagements)

• Event Organizers - Clubs, Region & Clubs, or just Region?

- Doesn't matter... lots of work on the region if they did it... so select clubs - rotating over the years would work as there are more clubs than events.

• Additional Solo 2 Committee members and their roles.

No opinion / uninformed as to present issues

• Series Sponsors – A committee could be formed to approach larger corporate sponsors?

- Why?? Too much work for what benefit? Unsure of value. Series purpose should just be to provide an elevated level of the sport... not sure how corporate sponsors helps achieve this.


4. Other Event Standards - Minimum requirements, policies and procedures
• Club regional event documentation.
• Lots – Minimum standard; size and condition?

- See rulebook.

5. Rule Changes – All rule change proposals WILL go through the CAC TAC for comment and possible
implementation.

• CAC TAC process

- bit of a black-box for many competitors. All CAC as well as CASC meeting minutes should be published and attention should be drawn to them for public discussion. Rule clarifications and interpretations should be backed up with reasons why the decisns are made.

• Cars in stock class are allowed modifications such as tire size changes and rear Sway bars.

- Just a rulebook change issue. (whats the justification to this specific change? Why not SS and SP and Mod changes?)

• Points deducted for safety equipment

- Again. - this is a rule change - justification? Are these the biggest classing and prep issues?

• Adopt SCCA Rules

- IF the national direction is this way... it makes sense to do the same and provide notice / warning for competitors. If there is a clear direction in Canada NOT to move to SCCA for next 3 yrs... then Ontario would ideally align with the other regions and national ruleset.

If the other regions are aligning with SCCA rules and NOT with a National ruleset - perhaps one option is to have all regions align with SCCA and move to have the national ruleset align witht he regions...
(this is because in truth - our National competitons move from east - to west every year... and we never TRULY get a National field... it's a localized field... with a handful of competitors from elsewhere) At least with SCCA rules... we would get all of the advantages of x-border competition both ways... and even have some US competitors filling our National competition with additional talent. We would also be able to compete in other regions in Canada without classing worries. SCCA rules are established and well-thought out with MANY people supporting it and providing stability long-term.

• There are too many rules and interpretations. Too many lawyers driving too fast..

- dunno what to say. Racers will always take a rulebook.. and interpret it.. and apply it to their car.. that's part of the sport. This is auto-x... not a spec showroom series. Car prep is a part of it. Hence the prep point schedule!

• Technical Malfunction Grace Period

- all that is required is a written decision and clarification made and put in the rulebook.
- Sportsmanship within class should also be able to override this fact (as there is already a clause to this effect)

6. Insurance Industry – Updates on progress from CASC-OR

- Bring it on!

[miataboi]

One last bit of context:

Let's try to differentiate tonight between "ME" changes... and "good of the sport" changes...



There will be both types of issues raised... but they need to be weighed appropriately...

Passionate debate and time consuming banter over "me" issues is not terribly value-adding tonight.

See you all there.

[Slowpoke]

One last bit of context:

Let's try to differentiate tonight between "ME" changes... and "good of the sport" changes...


You made a fine Chilean Sauvignon Blanc come out my nose with that one. Jerk.

[StewPiddass]

I'd say that all went fairly well... we discussed a lot of big issues.

I completely agree with Jeff (and many others last night).

The series needs a mission to draw the best competitors in Ontario to come together in different areas for a season series. And we need to plan the series and specific events accordingly. If we're not trying to attract the top competitors in the region then it's just really another club series, a sort of "tour of the region". This isn't specifically wrong, it just needs to be decided which direction CASC-OR wants to go.

I also learned that Marsh and I talk too much! LOL

[miataboi]

I also learned that Marsh talks too much! LOL


ahhh.....

Must have been your first Solo 2 workshop, then....

:D




:rolleyes:

[finboy]

a few things had me go hummmm on the way home last night


a)

i'm not sure why people are so negative towards the scca stuff

-i'm not suggesting use their entire format.. just their vehicle classing

why? yes it adds more classes to already under populated situations.. so there is no hurt involved

why now? regional attendance is at its lowest.. change the classes now
so there are fewer number of competitors complaining about the changes

why for? its only a matter of time before it happens.. so why prolong it??
mod guys will mod their car regardless, and there isn't much to change in the stock classes right now anyhow

b) pulling people out of the woods, to help out, step up to assist in organizing is very hard to do

-answer, fewer events.. people are willing to volunteer for a few events.. just not 8-14 events, or get more people to help out (the buzz is people who helped out burnt out quick..and hated it.. but still did it out of commitment)


c) clubs are successful.. why is the regional attendance so low??

-my guess.. too many events to commit to (in other words if i can't even make the minimum amount.. why sign up to register for the series)

-had to be series registered to participate (no walk ons allowed)

-clubs couldn't care less about the regional series.. except the one they hosted

d) the perception of a regional event vs. club style events

-i think people have an illusion that things are sooo much different at a regional/national event vs a club event


they're NOT.. same format for any event.. so people shy away for the wrong reasons

"not competitve" "too serious" "lousy attitudes"

this perception has to change

e) street tire rule

-regardless who you are, what you can afford, how serious you are, how slow you are

its one rule that brings back more people out to an event (people can contest till pigs fly about the different types of tires etc.. ) but having no allowance for street tires has a negative affect on the number of participants

(eg. look at club events.. how many have R's and how many are on streets..
i'd be fair to say there are more on street tires vs. R comps

then compare it to a regional event.. the ratio is worse)

f) venues.. bracebridge/ddt
-are the venues unsafe? or was course design just too "fast"??


g) that thing about no club events on the same dates as a regional

-if the regional had fewer events.. it might not bother the masses
-if it continues to be a 10-14 event series, clubs won't be happy


h) what the goal/vision of a regional event is

i still don't know what it is.. people have personal views on it

eg.
one of them was basically a wine tour of different clubs to sample what other people have to offer

this isn't a good or bad thing... I just don't think that is what people think a regional event should be about

if that is the case, a bunch of people should get together, look at everyones schedule.. and pick certain dates to envade

personally.. i think everyone knows who the fast people are in the own clubs

the challenge is.. to get everyone out.. all to one event to have on big mother of an event at least once a year

others want to see it as an event that brings something different that their club series doesn't provide


there are others like me who will continue to support their local clubs on a regular basis and circle certain other events to attend, but will not consider participating, promoting any regional event till some things change

the attendance in ontario isn't down... its the regional series events

will people miss the regional series.. maybe
will people miss club events if they don't happen.. absolutely



anyone else go hummmmmm after the workshop??

[JoeT]

the attendance in ontario isn't down... its the regional series events


When a prominent club who normally used to host over 120 persons at the Hershey Center complains of lack of attendance, it's positive proof that attendance is down on club events as well.

Maybe not for every club, but saturation is a reality, and oversaturation hurts everyone.

Let's keep our fingers crossed for 2007, and help Minister Donna Cansfield promote "Alternatives to Street Racing".

[finboy]

When a prominent club who normally used to host over 120 persons at the Hershey Center complains of lack of attendance, it's positive proof that attendance is down on club events as well.

Let's keep our fingers crossed for 2007, and help Minister Donna Cansfield promote "Alternatives to Street Racing".

it was a general comment.. there are more club events on the calendar with conflicting dates more than ever

i'll bet if there were fewer club events on the calendar.. they'd be heavily populated

its like when people first start.. they find out from others..

what??? there's another event next weekend??

what?? there's a website??

what?? how long has this solo II thing been going on??

[JoeT]

it was a general comment.. there are more club events on the calendar with conflicting dates more than ever

i'll bet if there were fewer club events on the calendar.. they'd be heavily populated


Agreed 100%, IMHO there exists an oversaturation of the sport, that's the main reason our "cones" remain almost brand new.

[gatherer]

Agreed 100%, IMHO there exists an oversaturation of the sport, that's the main reason our "cones" remain almost brand new.

And here I thought it was because you guys wash wax and buff them.

[Marsh]

I've been seeing it for a few years. People don't want to joing existing clubs they want to form their own clubs and organize their own events. Even when they have no complaints about the events they attended by other clubs. Thus the creation of more and more one-marque clubs that organize their own events. Every single series in the GTA operates by a different rule set completely etc. etc.

But that said from what I've seen it's mostly the same people attending everyone elses events. I think the bigger problem is getting new people out to slaloms.

That said WOSCA has always had good luck getting new people out with little or no effort, beyond a half decent website. Maybe it's because western ontario is under saturated (one series for 4 major and 8 minor cities).

[SE-R Racer]

And since in 2002, 2003 we had 8+ events and pulled in more than 100 competitors at a few events and averaged over 70 per event I don't think the number of regional events has anything to do with lack of attendance. But if we keep harping on it instead of looking for the real reasons, we won't move forward.

[brujack]

My 2 cents which I brought up repeatedly on the conf call.

The series lacks a mission statement. There is no attraction for people to run it outside of a club event. Who is the series catering to: everyone and no one at the same time. It does potentially offer a better competition, but the reality is that it does not. There are some good drivers, but then again there are many good club drivers. Does it attract the best drivers--no. Can you win this club series through attendance--yes. This is nothing more than a glorified club series that rotates venues. The hardcore cannot be defined as the person or people that show up to every event. The hardcore are your top drivers. How can they be enticed to show up to events. With 10 events there is absolutely no reason to attend. Unless you totally commit to this series you cannot win your division even if you are the faster driver. With a couple of events the best drivers will show up.

Since there is no vision there is constant bickering over the rules. Why not just bite the bullet and adopt the SCCA car classification system. The only reason given: it may piss off some people who will not return. Honestly, so what. Take the hit now. Attendance is at its lowest. Take the risk now, otherwise you really risk the constant rule tinkering and ultimately a big change down the road. Look at it this way--the two largest areas outside of Ontario both run the same classification system--coincidence, I doubt it. In Quebec, I believe they run 1 or 2 events to determine the provinicial champion. In the SCCA, they have a single regional event in an area and one National event. What does Ontario have 10 regional races that this past year attracted maybe 35 regional people per event. Not very large by anyone's numbers. Out of those how many are top class drivers that can consistently place in the top 5 in local club events--maybe half. Where are the rest of the top drivers--running local club events. Where are the Quebec and SCCA drivers--staying home where they have prepped their cars to a different rule set.

The other issue I have is the regional series takes 0 financial risk to run the series. Until your money is on the line to produce an effective and ultimately break even to small profitable series there will be apathy at all levels--from volunteers to participants. The local clubs take all of the risk and do most of the volunteer work to pull off each event. For the club that I regularly participate in, we take all of the financial risk and do most of the volunteer work. Where is the reward for the club? As far as I can tell there is none. If no one shows up their is loss and based off of the last 2 years participation levels there will continue to be losses for next year. The interesting question is: how much money did the regional series lose last year once you factor in the losses for each individual club running each one of the 10 events? I betcha no one can answer this question. I know what our club made last year from running our series. I fully expect every other club knows their financial performance, but the regional club--no idea.

Why are some looking for change--to improve the series. Why are others looking to keep it the same way--apathy to change and potential success.

If the goal is to compete against the local clubs by attempting to attract the new people to the sport, honestly it will not be very successful. The new people want a friendly series that stays close to their home base. This is not a friendly series that stays close to their home base--the club events are that series.

Think of it this way--if you were to run a business do you not have a goal for your business. I would say for any successful business they can quickly identify who their customer is and how to attract and keep them. Who is the customer of this series????? Until this can be honestly answered the series will continue to spiral around and around.

Bruce

[Guillermo]

I agree Bruce.

[tanney]

Why are some looking for change--to improve the series. Why are others looking to keep it the same way--apathy to change and potential success.I am more than willing to consider ANY suggestion you have on how to improve the series. CurrentlyI am just hearing complaints and demands.......not suggestions on how it could be improved.

If you have some suggestions on how to make it better, please e-mail me your suggestions.

[miataboi]

Mine and Bruce's posts have all the suggestions that are required...

...in our respective opinions, of course.

[tanney]

I am more than willing to consider ANY suggestion you have on how to improve the series. CurrentlyI am just hearing complaints and demands.......not suggestions on how it could be improved.

If you have some suggestions on how to make it better, please e-mail me your suggestions.

I should add, suggestions about financial risk. I have heard over and over that the saviour of our series will be SCCA rules and less events.....

[brujack]

Since Wes, you are the dictator of this series. Here are my suggestions in a very succinct list:

1 Event run per year running full SCCA car classification system effective for the 2007 season.

This is predicated on my vision of what this event is to attract. It is to crown the best driver for Ontario. It would be open to anyone who wants to participate. It would be fully funded, run and executed by the CASC-OR Solo 2 committee. They would be responsible for arranging all details of the event.

How I would structure this event:

1 double header weekend. The first day and most of the second day would be a run what ya brung event according to the SCCA car classification system. At the end of day 2 the best 2 drivers from Stock, SP and Mod would run a 2 run shootout to determine the overall champion.

The event would need to scheduled before the SCCA Nationals.and would hopefully encourage more to participate in that venue. We could easily attract the SCCA people from south of the border and the folks from Quebec.

The current series 100% conflicts with the club events. It is trying to attract the exact same people and is not successful by anyones definition. Worse than that it is not financially viable.

Wes I would prefer to hold this discussion in a public forum rather than email as it is my choice to do so. I think that there is value in doing this. Currently the series is pretty much dead from a competitors point of view. My first post was intended to get some debate, but what has happened: 2 posts 1 that agrees and 1 asking to email suggestions.

Bruce

[Keith-02Accord]

I do not compete at the Regional Solo 2 Level, not b/c I don't want to, but due to time, money and family constraints, I just haven't been able to fit it in the last couple of years.

Having said that, I feel it necessary that something must be said.

I seem to recall less than a year ago that ABSOLUTELY NOBODY was willing to take over the Solo 2 Director position. The only reason Wes agreed to do it was b/c he didn't want to see the sport die, b/c without a Solo 2 Director, there would not be a series at all.

Now, I have no problem with people voicing concerns and suggestions, its what makes the sport evolve.

I would suggest that to anybody that has serious problems with the way the regional series is currently being run, that they consider taking over the Solo 2 Director position next year and you can then run the series the way you want. Put up or shut up!

That's not to say that some of the suggestions and/or concerns are not valid, in fact, I agree with some, but to be perfectly frank, if I was in Wes' shoes right now, I'd want to do absolutely nothing major to the series right now. Tweaks, yes, but why should he work his ass off to make major changes and take the series in yet another direction when he didn't want the job in the first place.

I think everyone here owes Wes a great deal of gratitude for even stepping up to the plate and agreeing to stay on for a 2nd term even though he had absolutely no interest in doing so. And on top of all that, Wes has done some pretty amazing things to improve the series, especially in his first term.

[opal]

I have heard over and over that the saviour of our series will be SCCA rules and less events.....

If there are more than 6 events in the 2007 CASC-OR Autoslalom Series, this household will not be participating. I have made my suggestions - on this and other issues - directly to Wes.

I am now telling you all what my stance is.

Wes has stated his requirements for suggestions, so it behooves you all to do as the man asks. Post here, by all means, as a method for gathering conversation and other opinions, however, show your seriousness in your beliefs by sending one email.

/rant and /of my forum visits for 2006. Enough.

[Guillermo]

Lots of good comments and ideas

[MazdaMatt]

Driving is so much more fun than debating.

Wes: decide as you will. I will see you at as many regional events as I can handle because I love the sport. Good luck :)

I'm sorry that I missed the workshop as I was unavailable, but I don't really think that my opinions would have changed much in the way of my participation. I will be competing, rain or shine, whatever the ruleset. As long as the series requires four wheels and has a start and finish line.

[13inches]

The vision/statement/mission/goal/dream/whatever-other-buzzword-you-want-to-use has been clearly stated by our director. He's believed in it for 3 years now, and I don't see it changing for the 4th year. The regional series will continue as a wine tour of the solo2 events throughout the province, seeing what each club has to offer. Whether you're the best or the worst, fast or slow, race tires or street tires, whether the lot is big or small, far or close, no matter who you are and where the event is, go and enjoy the sampling (as long as you hold a club membership card, of course). And the end of the season, a champion of this series will be crowned. That person will be the Ontario Regional Champion. If this is your goal, then you will likely choose to attend.

If you have a different goal, its up to you to find a way to achieve it.

[finboy]

I should add, suggestions about financial risk. I have heard over and over that the saviour of our series will be SCCA rules and less events.....

an unofficial poll, what would be nice is a survey be sent out to the clubs and its participants to see what / why people don't /do the regional events

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=7088&highlight=survey

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=9476

[DareBee]

My reasons for not attending are similar to Keith and Opal (and I am sure countless others).

I have stated the same as brujack (Bruce) before.

I am a competitive person and can/will make a single "I am the best" event.

Thats it.
I went to the Nats.
Nuff said for me.

[Pete@Marcor]

Please realize that this is only a personal opinion, and has little effect on the direction of Solo in general in Ontario. Other than my single vote as a member of 2 CASC-OR clubs.

Bruce, while agree with a fair number of your concerns, let’s start from scratch. Let’s assume for the moment that we look at Club events as a starter event series where there may be very fast and competitive people running. Next up is the Ontario Region Solo 2 Series. This is where the faster or more competitive guys will eventually move up to. There is a place for rookies, and that is why we have a Rookie championship in that Series. Lastly, in Canada, we have the Canadian National AutoSlalom Championship, which was a 2-day affair this year.

In a Club Series, a high percentage of competitors will be from the hosting club, with 2/3 of those guys to be only club series competitors.

In the Regional Series, I expect to see some of the fastest, most competitive drivers in cars that are a little better prepared than those that show up at a Club event. I don’t think that they all will be able to attend a full season, but I would expect that a fair percentage would attend more than the minimum required to score a full season. Also, Rookies will make up a good portion, probably from 20-40% of the total. At each Regional event, because we travel around the Province, some of the Club series competitors will come out to that club’s event, and increase the numbers. These guys are usually gauging how well they will do against a Regional Competitor on a regular basis.

I expect to see most of the regular competitors, plus a few from other provinces and the US at a National level event.

This is pretty similar to the US, where there are Regional series, and champions in those series. Then, they hold one National event each year, to determine a National Champion.

Would this be a fair customer mix? Is this not the type of “customer” that we are trying to cater to? If it is, let’s try to figure out how to increase the numbers at Regional events.

Will a smaller number of events help? Possibly. I don’t think that it is a huge hindrance. Understand that when the Regional Series is being put together, most of the clubs realize that there are other events that are going to be included in the Regional series, and still we had 10 separate clubs asking to run a Regional event. Maybe the Solo 2 Director should have simply refused the applications from some events, but that is in hindsight. Let’s figure out what to do for next year.

Will a rules change help? Again, it is a possibility, but I don’t see it as a huge draw. A few of the most vocal competitors for the move to SCCA rules have stated that they won’t be running the series until other things in the series change. I am really not sure what those issues are that need to be addressed, but I am of the opinion that the current Solo 2 Committee and its Director are in this to further the sport, and look at the sport as a whole, and are not just in it to protect their own interests.

I really do not understand this huge push to go to SCCA rules. I do not see it as an eventuality, to be honest. I like the individuality that Ontario has, as well as the ability for us a community to decide upon our own rules. Does anyone actually believe that we will have any input into the rules decisions if we were to actually use the SCCA rules? This does have some benefits, as it does stop a rogue Director coming in and changing the rules to suit him/her. But, I don’t think that is a likely thing to happen in the near future. We are a pretty aware group, and I think that we would be able to make sure that does not happen.

Also, it will eliminate the need for a National Technical Committee, as well as save a bit of work for the Solo 2 Director. All of the safety and other requirement stuff will still need to be done. If we take the car classifications, we MUST use their car prep rules too. Otherwise, what is the point? The big complaint is that we do not have cross border classing that is consistent. If only a portion comes, then it is just a further modified book, like we have now.

Your next major issue seems to be with the fact that the Region has no financial responsibility to the event. CASC-OR needs to have a budget to run the series. It needs to have equipment so that all of the events have a consistent level of information and results. The standards need to be consistent to avoid any concerns from competitors. Also, it is a corporation, and has to maintain an employee and an office. Someone who is employed needs to provide the permits, and stuff like that. The rule books need to be printed. I can go on, but you get the idea, I hope. All of this info is available to any CASC-OR club, and they are allowed, even encouraged to view the financials of CASC-OR.

Have you done this?

One thing that I find of interest is that I don’t believe we have a process that allows a Club’s Regional event to be audited by the Region. So, there is no information available to a Regional competitor to look at how well or poorly a Club did on their particular Regional event.

I think that if the clubs as a group would like more participation from the Region, then the Regional Solo Committee size will need to increase, to provide help at an event. Then, I think that the clubs should be prepared for more involvement in that event, and more sharing of the financial gains, if there are any. Of course, if there were losses, the Region would share those, too. I have always been of the impression that clubs wanted less financial involvement from the Region into their events.

It was suggested that the members of the Solo Committee get burnt out fast, and only do it out of commitment to the Series. That may have happened, but remember that these people are all volunteers. Being blasted online that they are only out for their own self interests is not productive. Offer suggestions, and actually offer to help, and you will get a bit better response.

We all know of the situation where the current Solo 2 Director was not too ecstatic about running for office again for the 2006-2007 term. Not one person offered to step up to do that job. No one has offered to do it for 2007, either. To the best of my knowledge, Wes has stayed on, because he has gotten some help from the clubs and some members of this community. We may not agree with everything that he has to say, but no one is willing to do the job, so this is effectively a dictatorship, once the Solo 2 Director is elected.

I love this sport, and have been involved in it for a very long time. I have seen rulebooks come and go, and directors come and go. Attendance also goes up and down. Do I have all of the answers? Of course not. But, I would like to think that I have seen a bit, to offer some kind of input. I don’t consider myself to be too opinionated, but others might disagree. J

[SE-R Racer]

With all the requests for SCCA rules, has any club run their club events under SCCA rules?

[bbqman]

I have been following the threads on how to make Solo II better in Ontario and solve issues etc.

I can't say that what is working here in Quebec will automatically work in Ontario, but let me tell you what is working well lately in Quebec....

1) Alignment with SCCA rules works for a couple of reasons.....the biggest being ST and SM classes. These classes filled the void where street people would show up at events...get toasted by experienced R compound (any class) drivers and not come back....blaming the tires.
Street Touring is not just about tires, it is about 'typical tuning mods' that put the cars in far out classes.
Same for SM, except here R compounds work well.

We use Stock integrally ( no wheel changes nor swaybars) so that Pax makes sense. We use Street Prepared because it was close to our old SS classes.
We dumped Prepared classes in favor of SM because most cars existing found homes in SM without a big penalty. Finally we used a FSAQ version of Mod to catch all similar Mod cars in 2 classes..... sedan and open wheel. Mod classes are just not populated enough in our region to bother tweaking the classes.

THEN>>>>>> to determine club and Provincial champions...... we pax all Stock classes against each other and we do the same for SP, ST, SM and M.

This makes for real competitive classes..... just look at our event scores and championship standings...

2) OVERALL champions.....no matter the format, with the best drivers competing a little luck has to help. The is a growing sentiment in our region that one day we will do away with "Overall champions" cuz even when you win...luck played a big part.
If we need to crown a champion however.... a run off is the only way.

3) Participation.....this one is just to easy to explain. Less events overall = more participants per event. Thats just plain logic and in Quebec it has worked.

Club championships should never exceed 8 events of which ideally you organise only 5 and visit other clubs for points.

Regional (Provincial) championships should be limited to 3 (Quality) events...all of which count.
IMO if you can't commit to 3 dates, you are not serious enough to chase a Provincial title (there are always club events to keep you busy ).

But before you rearrange the way things have been...you need to ask yourselves one question...... DO I want to be part of a Provincial series or am I satisfied playing in my backyard??? Both ways of going about autoslalom are good but the answer to this question will define your Vision and Mission.


Other ramblings...about SCCA rules...why are they so good.....because they do not change overnight. Even if we do not have a direct say (bullshit, cuz if you have a SCCA membership , you can submit ideas all the time) , you can count on at least 1,000 people in the US that have your idea in mind and it has been proposed. If there are not that many people that share your idea, well maybe it was not worth considering.

The committees that put changes into effect for SCCA work efficiently and with much reflections, so don't ever expect radical changes that will piss you off.

I have been autopcrossing for over 15 years. I have raced with at least 10 different rulesets over the years...including CASC, SCCA, FAQ, FSAQ and numerous club variations on the theme. Right now I think the CADL uses the most efficient,understandable autoslalom ruleset around. It takes the best of the SCCA and ditches what doesn't apply to us.

I really wish that our 2 super regions would align rulesets soon, so that I can help organize an annual MEGA event between both provinces...cuz the National events don't seem to be much different.

BTW, myself and a few FSAQ hardcores are planning to do your regionals next year....if you don't have as many as last. I don't care about the classes, my car will be set up SCCA DS anyways!!

[tanney]

For those of you who haven't bothered to look into this, the CASC-OR Autoslalom Mission Statement that has been on the Solo 2 web page since April of 2004 reads;

To build Solo II into a North American Class competitive skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind.

That sounds very much like a vision statement as well......

I should point out half the sentence "keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind" doesn't seem to be in line with what a few competitors here want......

[finboy]

well said carl

there's a ton of club people that want to do a regional event...

we just can't commit to the current schedules required that have been used the last few years

when you're a newbie.. and gunghoo (is that a word) you'll do anything, anywhere anytime..

as a veteran... you still enjoy the sport, and would like to do battle with the peeps you haven't seen in a while

there's no reason why Ontario and Quebec can't have an annual huge event
to bring everyone out of the woodwork

- if you want variety go bar hop'n and check out the other clubs schedules and take a few friends with you

- if you want cheap and consistent do Mc Donalds/local club events

- if you want quality - go put your tux/dancing shoes on once a year and do a REGIONAL event

the one thing nice about knowing there's a LIMITED amount of "important" events is, that you can do a budget for tires

i think most people would save their good tires for the serious events, and use their notsogood tires for other events


a few other/similar points to throw out there

-reduce the number of events (1 overall like the topgun or 3 seperate events, win 1 or win all 3 titles so perfect attendance isn't an issue)

-allow walk on registration for anyone (casc member or temp membership)

-move to scca classing (a unified classing long term vision go anywhere/invite anyone.. so the cars are classed/prep'd equaly )

-street tire bonus - novice or vet can appreciate that they can run on a limited budget and still be competive with or without R comps

-pre-registration (try having individual clubs send in their pre-registration prior to the event) everyone regardless of the event always leaves things to the last minute

-casc forum, create a casc-member hidden forum (so open venting/arguing isn't aired to the general public)

-web page could use an update (there's enough web gurus out there to help with this) so upcoming events are shoved in your face (easy to find/high visibiltiy)

[finboy]

For those of you who haven't bothered to look into this, the CASC-OR Autoslalom Mission Statement that has been on the Solo 2 web page since April of 2004 reads;

To build Solo II into a North American Class competitive skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind.

That sounds very much like a vision statement as well......

I should point out half the sentence "keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind" doesn't seem to be in line with what a few competitors here want......


is that first part mean one event or a bunch of events??


whats wrong with that first part?? "to build a solo II into a north american class competitive skills event.."

the second part about the "unique Ontario/Canadian" part is lame..
(its the same as saying its just a teeeeny tiny bit better than a club series)


this thread is all about personal opinions on what a regional series means..

every competitor has a different look, has different demands

if its defined already in the rule book.. guess we have to ask.. is the series doing what its says its supposed to be about???

[brujack]

"To build Solo II into a North American Class competitive skills event, keeping the unique Ontario/Canadian focus in mind."

What exactly does this mean. To me it means run one Solo II event that is unique to Ontario.

What does unique to Ontario mean?
1. Alienate all other regions so that they do not participate
2. We run around with hockey sticks and toques because that is uniquely Canadian

This is probably the lamest mission statement I have read in some time. How about:

To challenge the best drivers and cars to a competitive drivers' skills event based on well respected competitive car classing.

As far as following the vision, in some ways we are except we are holding more than 1 event, but definitely building a unique Ontario ruleset.

As far as clubs running the SCCA ruleset. I don't know of any, but what I do know is the ruleset is designed to class more than 30 competitors who show up in different classes. Get more than 30 competitors and the complaining about underfilled classes that don't PAX well go away.

For our club we do not run the SCCA rules nor CASC-OR rules for that matter. They do not meet our requirements for attracting new competitors, while retaining current competitors, while increasing the skills for those drivers who want to. A defined goal with a ruleset and series setup that accomplishes it. We know who our customer is and we have a pretty good idea how to attract them currently. This cannot be said for this series.

Bruce

[101rs]

I guess I'll throw my 2 cents into the thread as well,
I personally don't think there anything wrong with the series at all, it just seems some clubs are trying to sink the boat by telling members not to come out to events because they won't do well. I remember being encourage after less then a year of autocrossing to go out to a regional event. I was still on street tires and got killed in a class by over 3 second by a certain copper corlla. But i had a good time and made it out to the rest of the regionals that year(well, almost). It just seems like a lot of "newbies" are being scared away by comments being said at the club series level. Encourage people to get out to regional events and the series will be what it was a couple of year ago, period.

I see some incorrect facts being said here,
In the SCCA, they have a single regional event in an area
In the Detroit region they had 8 regional events last year and they got 120 to 160 drivers out to each of them.

I agree that the 10 events was a bit too much this year but i don't that a reason to go to the exact opposite by going to a single event. I really think reducing the event count to 7-8 would really help the series. I don't like the idea of the single weekend event because i think a series will crown the best driver/car better. People have off days and car/drivers cater better to certain courses then others. Car problems and obligations can get in the way of even getting out to that single event.

[Rob]

I seem to recall less than a year ago that ABSOLUTELY NOBODY was willing to take over the Solo 2 Director position. The only reason Wes agreed to do it was b/c he didn't want to see the sport die, b/c without a Solo 2 Director, there would not be a series at all.

I think everyone here owes Wes a great deal of gratitude for even stepping up to the plate and agreeing to stay on for a 2nd term even though he had absolutely no interest in doing so. And on top of all that, Wes has done some pretty amazing things to improve the series, especially in his first term.

Gotta back Keith up on this one. Solo 2 Director is a tough position being done on a volunteer basis. Lots of people complain, not many step up to help. Thanks Wes.

[max attack]

I too like the idea of ST/SM style classes,nearly all of the newbies to try solo will end up in ST because of your typlical street mods.Like others already said this should keep them coming back instead of telling everyone on other forums how much solo sucks.My 1st year running the regionals was on street tires agaisn't R's,gave me a good feel for things before moving to R's the following year.
I also like the idea of only 2 mod classes,we have so few mod cars we might as well play in one class(production based)-not sure if weights are adjusted or something under Carls suggestion.
I'm ok with our ruleset as is,I moved up to mod to get away from rules a bit anyways so changing to another ruleset now or late won't really effect me as much as it could others.
I'm also more than fine with the Job Wes has done at the Helm.

Btw,sorry Mike!:) But now look at you,not many people can catch you regardless of what their driving.:cool:

[thekid]

I think most peoples reasons for wanting to bring in street tire classes are flawed. To think that people will be able to just show up on street tires and be competitive is ridiculous. The street tire classes in the US are some of the most competitive and you'll end up with the serious people showing up on the best street rubber with shaved tires, which end up costing much more than a set of R's.

I think the right reason to bring in the ST classes is they bring in an interesting class as Carl mentioned above with Tuning mods being allowed, but to think a car in stock form on regular street tires could be competitive is probably quite unrealistic.

[tanney]

is that first part mean one event or a bunch of events??


whats wrong with that first part?? "to build a solo II into a north american class competitive skills event.."

the second part about the "unique Ontario/Canadian" part is lame..
(its the same as saying its just a teeeeny tiny bit better than a club series)


this thread is all about personal opinions on what a regional series means..

every competitor has a different look, has different demands

if its defined already in the rule book.. guess we have to ask.. is the series doing what its says its supposed to be about???

Thanks for the useful suggestions, they will be put to good use......as always!

[13inches]

Wes, you're doing a great job! Keep up the fantastic work and I'm sure the series will succeed next year with you at the helm!

[tanney]

Wes, you're doing a great job! Keep up the fantastic work and I'm sure the series will succeed next year with you at the helm!
I am trying to figure out if that is sarcasm or not, I assume so.....:)

[tanney]

A little bit of history.....and a solution!

When I took over as the Solo 2 Director in 2004 CASC-OR Autoslalom was using a levy charge of $2 per head of all participants in Regional Events. The club would run the show however they saw fit, with the input of CASC-OR, charge whatever they saw fit and would be billed after the event from the CASC-OR offices $2 times whatever number of competitors participated in the event.

Only series registered or competitors who paid the additional $5 to CASC-OR Autoslalom would be "scored" for the event. Anyone who wasn't series registered would effect the event results but would not be shown in the series points.....

When CASC-OR changed their club affiliation fees structure to a flat rate, Autoslalom followed suit, charging a $300 flat fee for levies and timing system rental. That changed in 2006 to a $350 flat levy fee per event regardless of how many competitors showed up....... This was done for simplicity sake, at the club level, more than anything else.

In 2004 the turnout was high enough that the logic behind this was the clubs could potentially generate more revenue by advertising their events and encourage more club particiption, knowing EXACTLY what levies would be charged. If clubs felt that they could accomodate 50 competitors, there really was no need to advertise their events. If clubs could accomdate 200 competitors then they could advertise their own event and reap the financial rewards of the higher turnout.

This backfired as most clubs did not advertise their events and some did nothing, expecting the good times to continue and they could just pocket the profits.

Now that it has been pointed out that the CASC-OR Autoslalom Series doesn't take on any finacial risk with the individual events, this will change. I will be proposing to the CASC-OR BOD that CASC-OR Autoslalom goes back to a per head levy, this time of $3 to $4 per head. This will include the timing system rental and any other "Series Equipment" that clubs are required, for consistancy, to use. The $50 permit fee will also be reinstated, instead of being included in the flat rate. If the permit fee is not recieved with the application a MINUMUM of 30 days in advance of the event, the event will be cancelled and the club will not be invited back the following year.

Now the CASC-OR Autoslalom Series will have a fincial incentive to improve the series and get a larger turnout to individual events. It will remain that only series registered or competitors who pay the additional $5 to CASC-OR Autoslalom will be "scored" for the event. Anyone who isn't series registered will still effect the event results but will not be shown in the series points.....

Also anyone, regardless of club affiliation, will be allowed to participate, but if they are not a member of an affiliated club (ASN or SCCA clubs will be included), they can not score at all.

Change has been demanded, change is upon us.

[13inches]

I am trying to figure out if that is sarcasm or not, I assume so.....:)

That hurts Wes. But its great to see you back on the forum after your statement on Tuesday about not posting on here. I believe our director has to stay active in as many discussion venues as possible, including this one. Glad to see you've started making some great decisions!

[tanney]

That hurts Wes. But its great to see you back on the forum after your statement on Tuesday about not posting on here. I believe our director has to stay active in as many discussion venues as possible, including this one. Glad to see you've started making some great decisions!

Ryan the problem with these message forums is the detachment. People post from the comfort of their own environment, using login names (or pseudo names) that the average visitor here has no idea who they are. There are no facial expressions to determine if someone's comments are sarcastic, serious or if they are just being an a**hole for the sake of being one (which happens alot, I've noticed).

I come on here and read some people's comments and get annoyed because they are criticizing and offering NOTHING in the form of constructive input.

Why is it that some people are so vocal with negative comments on the message forums and are quiet little mice in person?

I have responsibilities at work, home and to the series that I volunteered for and really don't need to put up with some of the crap that is said on the message forums.

Dave does have a good point, one that Scott and I discussed yesterday (before Dave's post), about the need for a private discussion forum THAT USES REAL NAMES. Of course regulars here know exactly who the people are "hiding" behind a login names, but visitors to the site don't and it would be very good (in my opinion) to have real names attached to controversial posts so all can see who is posting crap and who posts useful content.

I have come back to the message forum this week because of the workshop and feedback from it. Then I read crap and get pissed off and want nothing to do with the forums...... Can you blame me?

[finboy]

I don't like the idea of the single weekend event because i think a series will crown the best driver/car better. People have off days and car/drivers cater better to certain courses then others. Car problems and obligations can get in the way of even getting out to that single event.


that's the point of a CHAMPIONSHIP event..

everyone pretty much knows who's who at the local level.. its on that GAME DAY for you as a competior to shine to be a "champ"


"make or break it"
"do or die"
"for all the marbles"
"go for it"



"there's always next year"
"thanks for comming out"
"there there"
"have a lifesaver"

[finboy]

I'm ok with our ruleset as is,I moved up to mod to get away from rules a bit anyways so changing to another ruleset now or late won't really effect me as much as it could others.

-the classes are secondary in my opinion... how many actually prep their cars to the maximum levels the rule books (not their pocket books) allow??

the classing this is secondary in my opinion...its only for future "joint/big" events so everyone is allowed to bring their cars on a level playing field

*reducing the number of "regional/big" events is my suggestion..
people want to go and participate, but the number of minimum events is tooo much, so people say why bother then...

if they don't want to.. thats one thing, and nothing can be done for them to attend..

but if they want to go, and its a fixable .. i think more people will attend just cause its calendar friendly




I'm also more than fine with the Job Wes has done at the Helm.


I commend WT as well... he's a crazy mofo for staying on so long!!
his efforts are appreciated, NO ONE has said no thank you Wes


Btw,sorry Mike!:) But now look at you,not many people can catch you regardless of what their driving.:cool:

Mike is a cool guy, with the right attitude.. he's laid down ass whoop'n all over

he is kiddingly called Jesus in the East around ottawa and quebec :)

not cause of his looks, but cause of his skillz

[miataboi]

Mike is a cool guy, with the right attitude.. he's laid down ass whoop'n all over

he is kiddingly called Jesus in the East around ottawa and quebec :)

not cause of his looks, but cause of his skillz


I once saw him and his Subie's header turn water into steam! :eek: :eek: :D :p

[finboy]

I think most peoples reasons for wanting to bring in street tire classes are flawed. To think that people will be able to just show up on street tires and be competitive is ridiculous. The street tire classes in the US are some of the most competitive and you'll end up with the serious people showing up on the best street rubber with shaved tires, which end up costing much more than a set of R's.

...but to think a car in stock form on regular street tires could be competitive is probably quite unrealistic.

I'm not suggesting that..

all i'm saying is there USED to be several regular regional competitors on street tires that don't show up anymore

simply because there is NO street tire bonus


secondly... I don't think they are that simple to think they'd have a chance against R-comps..

i think they just want a chance to be somewhat competitve

the arguement about cost is not an issue.. everyone knows the one with the most coin has the best chances everywhere all the time, regardless if we're talking tires, or anything else

[finboy]

Thanks for the useful suggestions, they will be put to good use......as always!


No problem mang..

people usually welcome input.. whether its positive or negative
so they can make the right decisions.



some people agree, some disagree, some agree to disagree




that's the beauty of a dictatorship!!

hear everyones points

then do whatever you want

[finboy]

I have come back to the message forum this week because of the workshop and feedback from it. Then I read crap and get pissed off and want nothing to do with the forums...... Can you blame me?


manage your health whatever way works best for you..

But..

I've never seen any personal attacts on anyone (except a drifting thread where someone called a hada guy hittler or something like that)

so take my/everyones input lightly...

I doubt that anyone here wants the regional events to fail, or become a thing of the past...

its a dumb sport.. we spend hours and hours in stupid weather, spend stupid money on tires and such.... all to spend minutes around a bunch of cones


if you're not having fun anymore.. then quit.. you're in it for the wron reasons

if no one steps up... then so be it



If i have given you headaches or grief.. sorry mang... not my intention

[TOYSRUS]

I see some incorrect facts being said here,
Quote:
In the SCCA, they have a single regional event in an area

In the Detroit region they had 8 regional events last year and they got 120 to 160 drivers out to each of them.


Mike, i beleive the single regional event whiCh this refers to is known as the Divisionals, it encompasses a larger region such as the NE Divisionals and used to be used as qualifications for the SCCA Nat's. :)

[TOYSRUS]

Carl's (BBQman) comments should be considered very seriously, I feel there are far more "pros" than "cons" to integrating a ruleset between these 2 large regions thus semi-aligning ourselves with the SCCA. Besides it is a proven formula.

Like Tom (MaxAttack) however, I too have retreated to MOD where the bullshit is only ankle deep so changes will affect me very little. A dual mod class, open and closed wheel, makes good sense though :) (strange under the current classifications how me adding a turbo to my car bumps me to a class with a more favourable pax though :D )

Wes, I don't envy the decisions that lie before you.....my vote is for the 3-4 event format (with a shootout of course;) ) and a shift to the CADL ruleset. Regardless though, I appreciate your hard work!

Bill

[fritZman]

I have come back to the message forum this week because of the workshop and feedback from it. Then I read crap and get pissed off and want nothing to do with the forums...... Can you blame me?

From my perspective, there was very little in this thread that is intentionally meant to disrespect you and piss you off. This thread has been tasteful and there's been some good information suggested. These are passionate folks who are talking out loud rather than in your face (IMO). In fact, I've seen quite a postings of gratitude for your efforts (and I agree they're due).

Back to the issue on hand, I like to think that I'm exactly the demographic you're looking for as a typical 'customers' for the Regional series. I believe I'm one of those "hard core" Solo2 drivers as I've been in and out of Solo2 for close to 10 years. I have a few club titles and FTDs under my belt so I've got some pace, yet few outside of Ottawa have seen me. The reason is that MCO puts on a great show and local competition was easy to find with a simple tire selection. It made little sense for me to have to travel to over 8 ‘away’ events to compete in the Regionals.

With the Nationals being in Ontario this year I stepped up and purchased my first R compounds to make myself competitive. I loved that weekend and honestly, it's left me longing for more. I'd love to see the Ontario Regional series move to a similar format with one double header weekend being best, but I would find it worthwhile to go to as many as three (be it double header or not). Anything more than that, the importance (attendance?) of each event diminishes, and the traveling and time away from the family becomes an issue – especially with such entertaining club events as an alternative.

[bbqman]

I think most peoples reasons for wanting to bring in street tire classes are flawed. To think that people will be able to just show up on street tires and be competitive is ridiculous. The street tire classes in the US are some of the most competitive and you'll end up with the serious people showing up on the best street rubber with shaved tires, which end up costing much more than a set of R's.

I think the right reason to bring in the ST classes is they bring in an interesting class as Carl mentioned above with Tuning mods being allowed, but to think a car in stock form on regular street tires could be competitive is probably quite unrealistic.

Brian...exactly.... just giving a bonus for street tire is wrong.... using well thought up class stucture like STS and STX makes a lot of sense....
Noobs will still get slaughtered.... but they cant blame tires and will most likely come back for more Solo.

[bbqman]

Wes, I hope you realize that my intentions are not to piss you off. Nor are they intended to change the way Ontario runs their championship.

The fact that I am interested running the CASC series next year shows that there is a lot of good going on in CASC and you are responsible for that good.
Wes, you have done a great job in fact! I tell you that everytime I visit your events.

I envy your variety of clubs, venues and total participation.
I only want to offer ideas that may solve issues that are in question.

No matter what happens in 2007...you will probably see me a several events...and very quiet during the evening festivities!!

[tanney]

Carl, most people's posts are very good, unfortunately there are a few, like I said, that are quick to criticize everything, offering no suggestions on how to make things better. That's the frustrating part. This thread has indeed, for the most part, been quite good. Having someone say "that is lame" but not offer something "better"......... need I say more!

Of course only about 5% of the community regularly visit the message forums (most for the same reasons I have stated here) so we are not getting feedback from everyone. The very vocal few are trying to shape the direction of the sport for everyone, not taking into consideration everyones point of view.

Now if there are more inputs as to what the Mission Statement of Vision should be, I am open for constructive comments. I do have a new one that I drafted up on Tuesday night after the workshop and has been tweaked further, but I am holding back waiting to see if anyone does have suggestions to better more relevant wording.

I do appreciate the support though, so feel free to stroke my ego whenever you'd like!:)

[soloZ]

so feel free to stroke my ego whenever you'd like!:)


Your the best Wes, I wanted to attend the meeting the other day but I didn't really think I had anything to offer at the meeting

[max attack]

Brian...exactly.... just giving a bonus for street tire is wrong.... using well thought up class stucture like STS and STX makes a lot of sense....
Noobs will still get slaughtered.... but they cant blame tires and will most likely come back for more Solo.

That was kinda my point,not sure if it came across that way,I'm not for a street tire bonus(not agaisn't it either),just that most newish guy's that want to try a regional event are club guy's.Those are the ones with the usual street mods that bump them to SS/SP or even Mod with an engine swap,then they are also on streets so they get killed and never come back.
A street tire class would get my vote to try and see if it works out.

I didn't really retreat to a mod class to get away from bullshit rules(because I don't believe that they are),just had a desire to keep improving the car and challenging me with more speed.:)

[13inches]

The very vocal few are trying to shape the direction of the sport for everyone, not taking into consideration everyones point of view.

Wes, I believe it's your job as the elected official (which you're doing very well!) to consider everyone's point of view. You are the only person who represents the entire community, and it's up to you to find ways to gather their feedback. If you choose to send out emails to the selected clubs, post on this forum, invite everyone to a workshop, then so be it. But if there are some who don't respond to your messages, send you emails, attend your workshops or post on this forum, then their point of view can not reasonably be considered, or even assumed.

In an election, only those who cast their ballots count towards the results.

[finboy]

doesn't matter... only 5% read/post on these forums

its a dictatorship.. no one wants the job.. so whoever is in charge gets to do whatever they want

[13inches]

I don't understand the 5% comment either. A few months ago it was 25%!

5% of those who completed the minimum number of regionals in 2005? 5% of the entire Ontario solo2 community?

Wes, please comment! You're doing such a great job!!!!

[WSCC_Sue]

its a dictatorship.. no one wants the job.. so whoever is in charge gets to do whatever they want
If by "dictatorship" you mean that one person has the final say in decisions, then you're just stating the obvious.

No matter how many people you may have on a committee, how much input you receive from the clubs/people involved, or how many workshops are held, the responsibility is ultimately one person's. It's the same at every other club that I know of.

However, the above are proof that careful consideration is being taken to provide a series that is the best for the largest number of people. To say that Wes is doing "whatever he wants" is ridiculous. Only people who care are crazy enough to take on this type of thankless job.

You are never going to be able to please everyone, and taking all of those ideas and deciding which direction is the best is never easy.

That's just my .02 after running the WSCC Autocross program for the last two seasons.

Sue :)

[andrew1984]

im confused.

scca have the same rates on entry fees @ solo events.

why do they own charriots of fire( motor homes ) and casc doesnt?


what fell off the shelf?:cool:

[bbqman]

Andrew, are you getting a head start on me with the JD....:eek:

[andrew1984]

hey cmon.

are you saying you've actually sobered up from topeka??

major hang over??? :eek:

[Pete@Marcor]

im confused.

scca have the same rates on entry fees @ solo events.

why do they own charriots of fire( motor homes ) and casc doesnt?


what fell off the shelf?:cool:

I can only guess that it is an economies of scale thing. How many competitors did they have at the Solo Nationals? How many did we?

They simply have many more competitors. I would expect that our fixed costs for CASC-OR would stay similar, but if we had 10 times the number of competitors, we would have the ability to hire some people to do this as a job. Until then, I think we will have to deal with the fact that most of these responsibilities are covered by volunteers.