Production car Mod classes

[J.C.]

Throwing around the idea of having one class for all production based mod cars. This would be a mod class based on displacement times weight with modifiers. This would be similar to the SCCA XP class. It would be beneficial to be able to group everyone to increase class size.

RWD: 1200 lbs + 200 lbs/liter
FWD: 1200 lbs + 150 lbs/liter
AWD: 1200 lbs + 250 lbs/liter
- Cars with engine located behind driver: +20 lbs/liter
- Cars equipped with traction/stability control: +50 lbs/liter
- Cars equipped with active/reactive suspension: +100 lbs
- Cars equipped with ABS: +50 lbs.

One problem is how would we weigh the cars? I know solo I uses weights for determining some classes, how do they get weights for their cars?

Thoughts?

[Tony Kloosterma]

impossible to get a wrx down to 1700 pounds

[J.C.]

Assuming an STi motor
displacement is measured at 2.5L x 1.4(turbo) = 3.5L

3.5L x 250 lbs. = 875

base + displacement + ABS
1200 + 875 + 50 = 2125

[Tony Kloosterma]

can't even get it down to that without completely trashing the car,
no abs so 2075

I stripped a lot out and am still over 3000 pounds

[thekid]

To answer your question about how Solo1 car obtains weights for cars that have done massive lightening...

The responsibility is on the competitor to get their car weighed (be it with Corner Weighting, Truck Scale, etc).

[thekid]

btw... no way my car will be 1620 lbs... (no abs)

1200 + (2x1.4x150) = 1620lbs

[13inches]

I believe those weights are minimums...no?

[thekid]

I believe those weights are minimums...no?

correct, but good luck being competitive when you can only get your to within 500+lbs of the minimum...

then again under different rule sets, I don't know where all these cars would end up, perhaps the engine swaps won't be penalized as much...

[J.C.]

I know those targets are not easy to reach but I don't think there is a minimum under the current rule set.

These 15 cars ran all together in XP:

2005 Lotus Elise turbo
2005 Lotus Elise turbo
2004 Chevy Corvette
2004 Chevy Corvette
2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
1997 Porsche RSR
1991 Honda Civic Si
1991 Honda Civic
1986 Honda Civic
1986 Honda Civic
1975 VW Scirocco
1970 Porsche 911
1970 Porsche 911
1965 Factory Five MkII

It made for an interesting and fun group. The car owners that disliked this system the most were the Lotus 7 owners as they would have to add alot of balast (700+lbs for some).

[J.C.]

then again under different rule sets, I don't know where all these cars would end up, perhaps the engine swaps won't be penalized as much...

Engine swap in SCCA is XP, D or E mod.

D mod is approx 1400 lbs minimum with driver

E mod is approx 1700 lbs minimum with driver

[JoeT]

Engine swap in SCCA is XP, D or E mod.

D mod is approx 1400 lbs minimum with driver

E mod is approx 1700 lbs minimum with driver

Get the "minimum weights" to be somwhat realistic for Solo 2 (mostly street driven cars) and it maybe a viable option.

Example:
A Mod minimim: 1200 Lbs (plus all the factors you added above)
B Mod minimum: 2000 lbs
C Mod minimum: 2500 Lbs
D Mod minimum: 3000 Lbs
E Mod minimum: 4000 Lbs

Or better yet, do your classifications based on Power to Weight ratio + points for suspension and braking.

[J.C.]

I was trying to make less classes :confused:

[brujack]

The point of a MOD class is to create a fully modded car and not a street car. If this turns into a street car class, where the hell do the fully modded cars go? Is my car at the minimum weight--no, but then again more weight could come out with more time/money/engineering. If you drastically add to the minimum then you end up excluding a bunch of potential cars and this ends up being a street car class.

These are run what ya brung classes. If you did not bring enough, sucks to be you.

I like the proposed original minimum weights. It becomes a target. If you think showing up in a street car, you are going to be competitive then you brought a knife to a gun fight and will lose.

Face it, at the end of the day there are good cars and bad cars to mod. You cannot build rules to fit everyone and you absolutely do not build rules to appeal to the middle of the engineering capability in this area.

Bruce

[JoeT]

The point of a MOD class is to create a fully modded car and not a street car. If this turns into a street car class, where the hell do the fully modded cars go? Is my car at the minimum weight--no, but then again more weight could come out with more time/money/engineering. If you drastically add to the minimum then you end up excluding a bunch of potential cars and this ends up being a street car class.

These are run what ya brung classes. If you did not bring enough, sucks to be you.

I like the proposed original minimum weights. It becomes a target. If you think showing up in a street car, you are going to be competitive then you brought a knife to a gun fight and will lose.

Face it, at the end of the day there are good cars and bad cars to mod. You cannot build rules to fit everyone and you absolutely do not build rules to appeal to the middle of the engineering capability in this area.

Bruce

Some of us create fully modded cars, that are driven on the street daily. Like this week, the choice I had to make was to stay within the 15 points or go MOD. IMHO there should be an option for that class as well, No or Yes. Paraphrazing from what you just said "this is for Run what you Brung" classes.

And it's driving skill that's being challenged, from what I can gather, not how well a sawsall works, or how narrow I can make a car to fit through the gates.

We had these discussions 4 years ago, and look how great things have been getting for "everyone".

Make the "minimum" weights "Realistic" or Group the cars by Pwr to Weight, it's easier to group cars together that have similar power to weight.

[TOYSRUS]

Get the "minimum weights" to be somwhat realistic for Solo 2 (mostly street driven cars) and it maybe a viable option.

Example:
A Mod minimim: 1200 Lbs (plus all the factors you added above)
B Mod minimum: 2000 lbs
C Mod minimum: 2500 Lbs
D Mod minimum: 3000 Lbs
E Mod minimum: 4000 Lbs

Or better yet, do your classifications based on Power to Weight ratio + points for suspension and braking.

What have you been smokin Joe?? My car wasn't 2500 lbs from the factory!!!:p

[JoeT]

What have you been smokin Joe?? My car wasn't 2500 lbs from the factory!!!:p

It's hypothetical.. LOL

I'm asking him to fill in the proper weights.. Not something that was unreachable by anyone...

Anyways, I'd ship you what I'm smoking, if you don't mind sharing the jail cell. :D

[TOYSRUS]

Some of us create fully modded cars, that are driven on the street daily. Like this week, the choice I had to make was to stay within the 15 points or go MOD. IMHO there should be an option for that class as well, No or Yes. Paraphrazing from what you just said "this is for Run what you Brung" classes.

And it's driving skill that's being challenged, from what I can gather, not how well a sawsall works, or how narrow I can make a car to fit through the gates.

...or how much money one can throw at a car:rolleyes: ....the competitor decides how to spend his/her 15 points enroute to MOD. I have seen super light (1600lb) 100hp POS's, well engineered 170 hp miatas, and (heavy) SP STI's all run similar times. MOD is MODified for a reason Joe, they have no business being driven on the street...stay in SP or make the committment and start really "modifying" your car :D

[JoeT]

...or how much money one can throw at a car:rolleyes: ....the competitor decides how to spend his/her 15 points enroute to MOD. I have seen super light (1600lb) 100hp POS's, well engineered 170 hp miatas, and (heavy) SP STI's all run similar times. MOD is MODified for a reason Joe, they have no business being driven on the street...stay in SP or make the committment and start really "modifying" your car :D


Quick, give me a sawsall!!.. LOL :D

Doors with side impact beams x 4 = 200 Lbs savings
Bumper beams = 150 Lb savings
Hood = 50 Lbs Savings
Trunk = 50 lbs savings
Floor boards = 150 lbs savings
Bumpers = 20 lbs / end = 40 lbs
Alternator = 25 lbs
AC = 100 Lbs (condenser, evaporater included)
Glass who needs that = 200 lbs
Sunroof = 75 Lbs
heck, who needs a roof with Ring shaped pillars = 200 Lbs
Dashboard with impact support beam = 100 Lbs
Fenders = and outer body skin cladding = 300 lbs
Holes in front and rear subframes = 20 lbs
Disk Brakes, replace with tiny ones so we can use 13" wheels = 100 lbs
Battery replace with lightweight unit = 20 Lb savings
Exhaust replacement with straight pipe exiting the side = 20 Lb savings

Total = 1800 Lb savings over a 3450 Lb car = 1650
Add to that Full roll cage = 200 lbs
Total race weight = 1850

Yeah, so I guess it's possible if you don't want something that looks like a car. Then the choice would be:

Build a tube frame chasis car or chop a car up.. Hummmmm :D

Good options.

[gatherer]

hmm I think the class concept is pretty interesting. and a reduction in classes I'm all for.

Sure some of the above competitor's vehicles arn't at the minimum wieght for the class ... but we all know not all cars are competitive in all classes.

From a concept it's cool.

I'd have to gett he car down to 1425 pounds for that class.. it's sitting at 2033 pounds currently. hmmm that class might be fun to prep my car too. where's the sawzall?

[yellowhotshoe]

Well, the weights suggested by J.C. are OK (being a bit selfish here). As it sits, the FFR was about 2300lb last time I scaled it without my big ass in it. So, 1200lb + 1000lb for a 302 fits OK.

As for MOD cars having no business on the street...I agree, so put me in a stock class. The Factory Five is stock - as built by me in my factory. Its all OEM since I was the manufacturer...:D Just poking fun.

I've had this discussion recently with another Modder. I thought that 2 classes might suffice with a weight break around 2500lb? However, the street driven point might be a place to start. What if we looked at 'road-going, driven to the event' MOD class cars as a class, and trailered all out race cars as another? I'm just trying to keep this as simple as possible...

[J.C.]

It sounds like Joe is talking about an SM class. I see his point, the unforetunate thing is it results in more classes not less :(


As for the formula and numbers I posted earlier I can not take credit for them as they were created by the SCCA for their XP, DM & EM classes.

As a side note I believe SM happen to be faster than XP or EM at the US Nationals but they run at different times.

[max attack]

I'm all for an XP style weight set-up,remember mod class is supposed to be for HEAVILY modded cars.Engine swaps or total mods that take them beyond SP wether you could or couldn't drive them on the street or not.
The point as in any class is to max prep the car within the rules,so far nearly every mod car in our regional ends up they from an unauthorised mod(like an engine swap)not a dedicated effort to make it a mod class car.
I'm one thats made that effort(2 friggin years worth:)) and since we currently don't have any minimum weights I've focused on reducing weight so I'd hate to see min weights come in and get inflated so that street car guys that haven't made that effort can be competitive.
I'd love to have all mod class cars in 1 class(minus any true A mod cars,which we don't have anyways),it would make for far more entertaining events imo,some courses are for sure going to favour one type of car layout over another but it would all work out in the end.
Not sure how to overcome the weighing thing,I'm an honest and trusting guy by nature so I really wouldn't have a problem taking their word for it-pretty damn hard to get to the min weight anyways so it would be a moot point for most.
I for sure have more than met the minimum weight,need to add some ballast if these weights were to come in and I'm ok with that.I'm willing to bet that Andrew is in the same boat along with Bill so I don't think it's an unreachable goal for everyone.It's all about picking the right knife and making it as sharpe as possible.;) :)

[max attack]

Just checking but I assume the min weight is for the car only,makes it much easier for multi drivers.Perhaps documention ala solo1 for proof of weight combined with random event weight checks though the season would be sufficient?.

[andrew1984]

all of this talk is complete utter non-sense. thank you, it makes me laugh - hard. :D :)


(sarcasm on)

hey, heres a good idea. why not ban modified cars all together. stock cars only!! yaaaaaaaa. nooo waiiiit.

stock cars with 1000 lb ballast added to each corner - you know, to make it fair!.

and then pull 50% of the plugs out .

dont allow turbines on the exhaust side of turbos.

ban octane levels higher then 87.

positive camber only with huge ackerman like a carriage.

oh and everyone must complete an AZ drivers license since they will be driving tractors.

wooowweee should be a hoot!!!

or maybe we could just skip side by side and sing fairy songs.

wanna play tag???

hop scotch??

screw that, teletubbies are on!!

(sarcasm off)




if you are going to copy scca then do so. dont take bits and pieces to build a series around "you".

[bbqman]

Play nice Andrew....:rolleyes:

[max attack]

Any further thoughts on this idea or has anyone heard anything?.I sent an e-mail to Wes a couple weeks ago regarding my thoughts but never heard back and don't want to pester so......:)

[max attack]

Guess this is on the fast track to nowhere?