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View Poll Results: If an event organizer can't complete four runs for all competitors;
Count a mixture 3 or 4 runs in the same class, for Pole Position Award, and Overall Championship? 8 22.86%
Eliminate the fourth run results for all competitors for that event? 27 77.14%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:30 PM
John P John P is offline
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Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

At the Mosport GP some competitors were counted 3 runs, while others were counted 4 runs in the same class, because the organizers ran out of track time. The people that only counted 3 runs were at a distinct disadvantage for class wins. For the Pole Position award and for the Overall Solo 1 Championship they were scored their best 9 out of 9 runs, while the competitors with 4 runs were scored 9 out of 12 runs. Although the competitor with 3 runs was not at fault, he was treated as if his car broke and he never finished the fourth run.

In past years this situation was handled by eliminating the fourth run so that all competitors would be treated equally and fairly.

There is a rule change proposal for 2006 and future years that either 3 or 4 runs be counted if the organizer runs out of track time (same as Mosport GP this year), although the organizer has the option to cut the event to 3 runs if he feels that 4 runs can't be completed.
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Old 10-31-2005, 01:19 PM
Rick S Rick S is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

I think each class should be scored on the number of runs every driver got. So for example, if every car in GT4 got four runs, then four would be counted for GT4, but if some cars in GT3 got three runs and some got four, then GT3 should have three runs counted.

However, I think for things like pole position award and the overall championship should be scored with everyone having the same number of runs. So for the Mosport GP everyone should have been scored based on three runs, including those classes in which every car got four runs in.

The combination of the two would be the best compromise, this way drivers can keep all four runs if their class as a whole got four in, but still not have an advantage in the overall standings over drivers in different classes who only got three runs. The only problem with this is that it creates more work for the organizers in the event that not everybody gets four runs, as each class essentially has to be scored twice. Organizers may not want to do this, especially on a day where some people only get three runs, since the chances are things are hectic enough as it is.
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Old 10-31-2005, 02:41 PM
Chuck Atkins Chuck Atkins is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

There is a down side to all of this. What happens if, probably because of tires, a competitor's fourth run is his best of the day. He made the run in good faith that it would count and now we are just going to arbitrarily eliminate that run?
The number of runs has to be determined prior to the event, as it was at Mosport, and can be reduced by the organizer prior to anyone running their 4th run. It could also be increased as well.

Chuck
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Old 10-31-2005, 04:24 PM
gkierst gkierst is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

Personally I think it is better that all competitors are scored for the same number of runs.

Looking at the results for Mosport, 20 of the 35 people who had a fourth run improved on their best time for the day. A lot of things stood to change in various aspects of the scoring, but the 33 competitors that did not have a fourth run had no influence at all. I say that is unfair.

I do feel that organizers should have the freedom to try to add runs if time allows, but I think each competitor should be given the same opportunity because they paid the same for their entry.

Greg
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Old 10-31-2005, 04:29 PM
Pete@Marcor Pete@Marcor is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck91GT
The number of runs has to be determined prior to the event, as it was at Mosport, and can be reduced by the organizer prior to anyone running their 4th run. It could also be increased as well.
Chuck
If it were to be increased, it would HAVE to be early enough that all competitors are given ample opportunity to know that it has been increased. What if it starts to rain, and a competitor goes home, thinking there are only gong to be 3 runs? Increasing the number of runs will put him at a distinct disadvantage.

He was given information saying that there were only 3 runs. He decided he could not go any faster. Then, it suddenly dries up, and 4 runs are run. I am just saying that the hierarchy of CASC will require he had been given enough warning about the increased runs. I have seen it where extra runs have been disallowed, because of lack of warning.

For this reason, it is only feasible to decrease the number of runs during an event.
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2005, 05:54 PM
Chuck Atkins Chuck Atkins is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

The number of runs has to be determined prior to the event, as it was at Mosport, and can be reduced by the organizer prior to anyone running their 4th run. It could also be increased as well.

Chuck[/QUOTE]

Actually I think the notification has to be given prior to the 3rd. run.

As one of the organizers for the Mosport GP, we gambled on 4 runs and obviously were wrong for several reasons beyond our control.

1. We had an accident that took up maybe 15 minutes so we went to lunch.
2. Normally we would run through lunch but the Mosport marshalls are not accustomed to this.
3. A number of competitors decided to run each other down in the warmup lap thereby bringing about several unnecessary yellows in their hot laps. Oh, incidently, it was this group that never got their 4th run.
4. We couldn't find the Mosport official in charge of the track to have the event extended.

Chuck
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  #7  
Old 10-31-2005, 06:38 PM
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craig craig is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

I'm confused. If you want to vary from force majeur, then you need a rule. If not, force majeur is already covered in the GCR's, and it sounds to me like the rule change is proposing the same thing? If one wants it cut down to three runs like the past years, then one needs a rule. Otherwise: (bold mine)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CASC-OR GCR 2005
2.17 FORCE MAJEURE
An unforeseen course of events excusing from fulfillment of contract. An event or effect that cannot be reasonably anticipated or controlled.
...
5.1.2 ...
The Stewards of the Event have power in accordance with the GCR to:
...
f) In the case of Force Majeure or for reasons of extreme safety either postpone, abandon, or stop a Competition. If a Competition is stopped, the Stewards of the Event may declare it "no contest" and arrange for it to be re-started or alternatively declare the Competition concluded and determine the results based on the Competitors' positions at that time.
I only had three runs at Mosport, but four runs were announced, and sh*t happens . I would have preferred that those people in the 3-run group that were in classes that got four runs had the opportunity for a fourth run - there were only a few of us , so it was feasible - and this, too, could have been accommodated under the current GCR's.

Last edited by craig; 10-31-2005 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:41 PM
RRRex RRRex is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

I think this is what happened to Darek since he shares a car. Everyone else in his class got 4 runs and he didn't through no fault of his own. My position at the time hasn't changed. I believe the 4th run should be dropped and all people be scored on equal footing. As said earlier - shit happens.
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Old 11-01-2005, 04:51 PM
James Mewett James Mewett is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RRRex
I think this is what happened to Darek since he shares a car. Everyone else in his class got 4 runs and he didn't through no fault of his own. My position at the time hasn't changed. I believe the 4th run should be dropped and all people be scored on equal footing. As said earlier - shit happens.
You mean because one person, who is sharing a car and so is in a different run group, loses a run everyone else in the class should lose a run? Why should one person's bad luck become everyone's bad luck?

As for fault, when you share a car you double the risk that something will break or that rain will ruin the day of one of the drivers. So when something like this happens to one driver it is his "fault". Not that the concept of fault really enters into the question.

I don't think you properly grasp the concept of "shit happens". It doesn't mean, when it happens, spread it around.
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Old 11-01-2005, 05:31 PM
John P John P is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

James. This isn't about one driver that shared a car. Derek had a lot to say in a previous thread, but there were 27 drivers that didn't score their last three laps (scored 9 laps only). I don't know how many could have improved their position, but I know one driver that won his class in 9 laps but for his back-up he had to count all 9 laps not 12 like all the other class winners. It could happen to you next year and it isn't fair if you are going for the Overall class win and Overall championship.

I expect you would be upset if next year, you had to complete your last run of the season to win the overall Solo 1 championship and the organizer said he ran out of track time and you can't run. Now you end up 2nd or third or worse in the overall results. You hadn't broke down, you hadn't delayed the event, but you are penalized. Is that fair?
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  #11  
Old 11-01-2005, 06:27 PM
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craig craig is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

James, you are right, there is no "fault" here, but the principle is the competition must be fair, it doesn't matter if there were two drivers in a car or not. Force majeure can make a competition unfair, as I quote above, but an organizer/clerk/steward decision cannot, and that could be construed as what happened at Mosport.

Affected drivers in those classes did request to go out well in advance of the end of the previous run group and were denied. They could have protested that the competition was unfair, and might have been successful as it could be argued that force majeur did not apply when they made their request, because it was likely there was sufficient time to fulfil that request for all affected drivers before 5:00pm. I know this is easy to say now, but it is just as easy to say in a protest hearing (and I've been to a few of those )

Certainly if someone was a serious participant in a quest for a championship, he/she could have filed a probably successful protest making the above points. However, the probable resolution of a protest would be to throw the entire event out, which would have annoyed everyone - but equally (viz. fairness, above )

Anyhow, I have no issue with what happened at Mosport, because the organizers/clerks were doing their best, and their salaries just aren't large enough to deserve anything other than a huge THANK-YOU from me (and, I think, everyone, regardless of the number of runs they got).

P.S. When I say, sh*t happens, I mean sh*t happened, "get over it." (TM Gen1GT, used without permission )
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:29 PM
James Mewett James Mewett is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John P
I know one driver that won his class in 9 laps but for his back-up he had to count all 9 laps not 12 like all the other class winners.
On this point I am behind you 100%. There is no question that those competitors who's event consisted of 9 laps should have used only 6 laps to calculate the backup score. A competitor cannot be scored DNS if they were not given the opportunity to start. The fact that this scenario is not anticipated by the scoring software and would have had to be done by hand does not change the fact that this is the only correct way to score these competitors in accordance with 4.2 of the rules.

We have all had yellow laps not recognized and not made up, and yes it is annoying. Personally though, I think it would be more annoying to have good laps dissallowed. I would rather that the organizers err on the side of allowing laps than dissallowing them.
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Old 11-01-2005, 10:42 PM
gatherer gatherer is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

Personally I think it should be the same number of runs for everyone.

the shit happens arguement can be used for either side...for example: Shit happens so we are dropping back to 3 completed runs. or For example: Shit happens so some people don't get their 4th run due to lack of time

So I'd love to hear the arguments for either side (from the perspective of I'm curious) without using the shit happens arguement since that could be used for either side.

I think what is really required is more planning on the part of organizers to err on the safe side so that they don't run into a wall of lack of time to complete the last run. 3 runs with lapping til the end of the day is better then 3 runs for some and 4 runs for others. all it takes is planning to get started right away and know how long it takes to get through each run group so that it can be determined how long it'll take to do an extra 4th run for everyone.
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Old 11-01-2005, 11:22 PM
RRRex RRRex is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

Not scoring everyone fairly ruins the legitamacy of both the winners and the never had a chancers. A winner can't honetly call himself/herself the best in a class if everyone didn't have the same opportunity to compete. Or if you are the best driver but lost your position because you got DNS when that clearly was not the case? If someone was to protest the event I don't see how that's good for the sport or the event. I'm with John.
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Old 11-02-2005, 11:57 AM
Anamaria Anamaria is offline
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Re: Count 3 or 4 runs in same class?

I'm with John too.
But I also think that is not fair for the group that completed the 4th run, to just “Eliminate the fourth run results for all competitors for that event”, because I also agree with Chuck that probably a competitor's fourth run has his/her best time of the day.

My proposal is that If an event organizer can't complete four runs for all competitors, the 3 worst times of the day should be dropped for the competitors that completed 4 runs.

Everybody would still have a chance to keep his/her best lap of the day. At the end that is the only lap that counts. the worst 3 laps of the day don't make a difference to anyone.

It will of course require extra work at verifying the results, lap by lap, competitor by competitor, to find and delete these 3 laps for each one (and definitely the timing program will need an upgrade so this can be done at the track before the results are published). Not an easy task.

Of course the best option is definitely for the organizer to call it 3 or 4 runs, before the 4th run begins, but I think we should also contemplate other possibilities for when (I quote Chuck) “the organizers gamble on 4 runs and are wrong for several reasons beyond their control“
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