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Old 11-21-2017, 04:18 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Question about PIPs for suspension

Hello all!

Quick intro I guess as I'm new here. Leif Madsen, live in Alliston Ontario, driving a 2008 Mazdaspeed3, non-daily.

Working my way towards some time attack I think, as I've had the bug to do some track driving over the last few years, but just not had the opportunity. Now that I have a dedicated car for track use, now is the time to start getting up to speed. First thing will be some instruction as early in the year as Canada will allow for

I had been in the process of getting my car ready for a periodic track day, while keeping it daily, so instead of a full coilover system, I went with a non-adjustable strut/shock system, Bilstein B12, part 46-190321. Supposedly up to 40mm of drop, but with everything installed, the car basically sits at the same height as the original stock system. Of course, after ordering the suspension, things changed. Such is life.

Going through the PIP system, it looks like any non-OE suspension setup requires taking a pretty significant number of points. From what I can tell, a non-OE setup requires 6 PIPs: 5.1.B.4 and 5.1.B.5.

Is this accurate? With the extra 6 PIPs, that definitely takes me into GT1 (vs GT2)

Thanks!
Leif.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:58 PM
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LemonJus LemonJus is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Hi Leif!

Welcome to the community! Based on the 2017 ruleset, springs are worth 4 PIPs as per section 5.1.B.5 which states:

5. Modification to the OE suspension springs or ride height.

Note: Non-OE ride height adjustable spring perches are permitted but any change to the damping elements of the shocks/struts shall be claimed under 5.1B.4.


Shocks are accounted for separately in section 5.1.B.4:

Modification to the OE shock absorbers/struts, including all operational and attachment parts. Factory specified ride height must be maintained.

Note: Installation of alignment adjustable devices, as described in Section 5.1 B.3, are permitted for the sole purpose of setting alignment to within OE specifications.


Based on your description, it sounds like you would take the full 6 PIPs indeed!

Hope that helps!

Kev
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:09 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

That's what I was afraid of. It seems like there should be some sort of middle ground between "stock suspension, 0 PIPs", and "full adjustable damping, rebound, spring rate coilover system, 6 PIPs". I get the 2 PIPs for spring / ride height, but with a non-adjustable suspension, an additional 4 PIPs seems excessive to me...

Leif.
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:53 PM
Grant Galloway Grant Galloway is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

If you are changing out the factory suspension, go big or go home...

I had a cheap set of coilovers, then moved to Motion Control and I can tell you best money spent and worth the PIP's

You are running a FWD, I run a 2010 Civic si; I run a Cusco Clutch type Diff it is a free mod, no pips a lot of $$$ but best mod to make to a FWD!!

Welcome to OTA, hope you make it out..

Grant
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:00 PM
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Dave Barker Dave Barker is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by leifmadsen View Post
That's what I was afraid of. It seems like there should be some sort of middle ground between "stock suspension, 0 PIPs", and "full adjustable damping, rebound, spring rate coilover system, 6 PIPs". I get the 2 PIPs for spring / ride height, but with a non-adjustable suspension, an additional 4 PIPs seems excessive to me...

Leif.
In the interests of keeping the rule book simple (although some complain it is already too complicated) we assume that if you make a modification to your car that you do it well. Shocks are probably the biggest example of wide price ranges for improvements i.e you can get a $500 set or a $5000 set and pay the same PIPs so as Grant says, go big or go home. OTOH, I bought the $500 shocks for my car and still enjoyed driving it that way despite the 2 PIPs

Unless you are planning to win overall in your rookie year, you should just come out and have fun while learning a ton at the same time. The difference between classes is about 1 second per lap on many of our tracks so don't worry too much about which class you are in. the top drivers in many classes are sometimes easily more than a second ahead of 2nd place. Also with the IPAX scoring you don't have to have your car optimised to any given class anyway.

BTW, if you have changed springs and shocks you will likely want to take advantage of the 1 sPIP for alignment. It is likely the best performance PIP in the rule book
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:28 PM
wparsons wparsons is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

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Originally Posted by Grant Galloway View Post
You are running a FWD, I run a 2010 Civic si; I run a Cusco Clutch type Diff it is a free mod, no pips a lot of $$$ but best mod to make to a FWD!!
Just a disclaimer... an LSD is only pip free if the car comes with an LSD stock and you're swapping in a different type/brand/whatever. If it's an open diff stock there's pips for adding an LSD.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:36 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Thanks for all the information folks! Overall I'm not too worried about where I'm placing in the first season (or two?) due to simply learning and having some fun. I didn't do a big suspension swap as 1) I thought I was going to continue to daily this car, but now I don't have to 2) I didn't want too many knobs to fool around with initially, and wanted something close to stock.

If I keep up with this (and this car), then I'll likely just swap out for a coilover package at some point, but I think that's about 2 seasons away, but who knows

I suspect I'll learn a ton of things coming out and running the car, and at that point, I can really worry about tuning it up to be competitive. For now, my plan is to run some consistent trouble free laps, and learn about how the car handles, and then decide where to go from there.

Already can't wait till spring

Thanks again!
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:39 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons View Post
Just a disclaimer... an LSD is only pip free if the car comes with an LSD stock and you're swapping in a different type/brand/whatever. If it's an open diff stock there's pips for adding an LSD.
The MS3 does indeed have an LSD stock with it, so this is some good information in case I decide to stay with this car going forward over the years! For now, I'm basically just in the process of getting everything in race shape and reliable. Suspension is fully done now. Just need to replace some injector seals, clean valves, check the timing chain, and then get the car modestly tuned for reliability and smoothness (I'm not concerned about overall power right now).

I'll probably also need to look into a pad upgrade over the OEM pads, but I'll likely make that decision after a day testing. It's something likely to change out. Everything is new on the brakes, but they are OEM all around (again, one of those "hey you gotta daily this... oh nevermind" things)
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:42 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Barker View Post
In the interests of keeping the rule book simple (although some complain it is already too complicated) we assume that if you make a modification to your car that you do it well. Shocks are probably the biggest example of wide price ranges for improvements i.e you can get a $500 set or a $5000 set and pay the same PIPs so as Grant says, go big or go home. OTOH, I bought the $500 shocks for my car and still enjoyed driving it that way despite the 2 PIPs

Unless you are planning to win overall in your rookie year, you should just come out and have fun while learning a ton at the same time. The difference between classes is about 1 second per lap on many of our tracks so don't worry too much about which class you are in. the top drivers in many classes are sometimes easily more than a second ahead of 2nd place. Also with the IPAX scoring you don't have to have your car optimised to any given class anyway.

BTW, if you have changed springs and shocks you will likely want to take advantage of the 1 sPIP for alignment. It is likely the best performance PIP in the rule book
Thanks for the tip! Definitely need an alignment (new suspension and all that). I'll be looking for places up near Barrie/Alliston for an alignment once I get some of the other engine work done that needs doing.

Great to know about the IPAX scoring system. I'll have to read up about that, but from what I can tell, it seems like cars are somewhat balanced against each other even within the class. As you mentioned, no point in worrying too much about that in a rookie season
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:05 PM
Grant Galloway Grant Galloway is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons View Post
Just a disclaimer... an LSD is only pip free if the car comes with an LSD stock and you're swapping in a different type/brand/whatever. If it's an open diff stock there's pips for adding an LSD.
Yes, this is true... Mine already had a stock Diff
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:39 PM
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LemonJus LemonJus is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

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Originally Posted by leifmadsen View Post
I'll probably also need to look into a pad upgrade over the OEM pads, but I'll likely make that decision after a day testing. It's something likely to change out. Everything is new on the brakes, but they are OEM all around (again, one of those "hey you gotta daily this... oh nevermind" things)
Definitely do pads. You will need them.

At least go up to a track compound like the XP10s (or whatever G-Loc has equivalent). The OEM pads will not hold up for very long.
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:05 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonJus View Post
Definitely do pads. You will need them.

At least go up to a track compound like the XP10s (or whatever G-Loc has equivalent). The OEM pads will not hold up for very long.
This is kind of what I figured Maybe I'll swap out the OEM for autocross days or something then, or just keep them in case I ever sell the car. I'll start looking at Carbotech and G-Loc then, as those brands aren't familiar to me
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:12 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonJus View Post
At least go up to a track compound like the XP10s (or whatever G-Loc has equivalent). The OEM pads will not hold up for very long.
Looks like the Carbotech XP10 is equivalent to G-Loc R10 (just fyi):

http://www.ctbrakes.com/brake-compounds.asp#4

http://www.g-locbrakes.com/products/...nds/g-loc-r10/

(mostly going by the temperature operating ranges)
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:41 PM
Silex326 Silex326 is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

having just finished my rookie year let me just bring up a few points from my experience thus far.

1) Don't over think the car , just set it up to be neutral with handling and go with a stock alignment to start , get a feel for the car after a couple events to get an idea where you want to make your changes .

2) Tires ... there are some changes to the 2018 rule book on tires and what is now classed as "street tires" I made the mistake of going with a "true" street tire that had a higher tread wear rating and that alone cost me dearly in lap times , though on the flip side I was still learning the car and Time Attack as a sport with the added bonus of the tires lasting the entire season + an additional fun track day , though the car was a handful .

3) Don't let the thirst for power get to you ... a MS3 has enough jam out of the box to get you into plenty of trouble.. throwing more power mods at the car is an extremely slippery slope .

4) Keep the car reliable , It's kind of hard to have an fun when you're in the pits all the time fixing little things.

5) Brakes - Get the best brake parts you can afford that are suited for track use . In my case nobody makes a track pad for my car but since my car doesn't have a boat load of power to begin with I was able to make due with some Stop-Tech sports , seems the guys above have found some good options for you to try. also swapped out the stock dot 3 water and went with a higher heat resistant brake fluid ( motul rbf 600/660 is commonly used )

and lastly ... don't be affraid to walk up to anyone to say hello or ask questions , everybody is friendly and open to discussions . Just focus on learning the car , tracks and have fun . If you can afford to do so i would suggest taking the time attack schools in the spring. I'm certainly wishing i did ( wasn't in my budget )
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:41 PM
leifmadsen leifmadsen is offline
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Re: Question about PIPs for suspension

Thanks so much for the rookie tips! My whole approach to this car has been "reliability first, suspension and brakes second, power probably never."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silex326 View Post
having just finished my rookie year let me just bring up a few points from my experience thus far.

1) Don't over think the car , just set it up to be neutral with handling and go with a stock alignment to start , get a feel for the car after a couple events to get an idea where you want to make your changes .
Agreed! Alignment just going to be stock setup for now. Like you said, just want to get everything from a base platform, and then can adjust from there. That's why the suspension I went with is "near stock" from a height and damping perspective. I'll eat some PIPs, but first year out I'm not going to worry about position, more just getting consistent, and then building from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silex326 View Post
2) Tires ... there are some changes to the 2018 rule book on tires and what is now classed as "street tires" I made the mistake of going with a "true" street tire that had a higher tread wear rating and that alone cost me dearly in lap times , though on the flip side I was still learning the car and Time Attack as a sport with the added bonus of the tires lasting the entire season + an additional fun track day , though the car was a handful .
Tires I already have done. I'm using Continental ExtremeContact Sports as they seemed to get a pretty good write up in Grassroots motorsports. After I use these up, then we'll see where I'm at in terms of track usage, and where I'm going with the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silex326 View Post
3) Don't let the thirst for power get to you ... a MS3 has enough jam out of the box to get you into plenty of trouble.. throwing more power mods at the car is an extremely slippery slope .
Only "power" mods I have on the car are an upgraded TMIC, SRI+TIP, HPFP, and Cobb AP to tune for those changes. I totally agree, the MS3 really has plenty of power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silex326 View Post
4) Keep the car reliable , It's kind of hard to have an fun when you're in the pits all the time fixing little things.
My goals over the winter are definitely around reliability. Need to chase down a small low cylinder compression issue. Have done the leak down test, and I _think_ it's around the injectors or valves. So valve clean first, leak down test, injector seals replaced, leak down test, and that'll tell me if it's something more invasive. After that, probably just get the timing chain done, check shaft play on the turbo, and that should be pretty much it for the engine. Might also do a dyno tune just to make sure everything is smooth and clean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silex326 View Post
5) Brakes - Get the best brake parts you can afford that are suited for track use . In my case nobody makes a track pad for my car but since my car doesn't have a boat load of power to begin with I was able to make due with some Stop-Tech sports , seems the guys above have found some good options for you to try. also swapped out the stock dot 3 water and went with a higher heat resistant brake fluid ( motul rbf 600/660 is commonly used )
Other than the reliability aspects on the engine I mentioned, this is sounding like the place where I'll be investing any sort of parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silex326 View Post
and lastly ... don't be affraid to walk up to anyone to say hello or ask questions , everybody is friendly and open to discussions . Just focus on learning the car , tracks and have fun . If you can afford to do so i would suggest taking the time attack schools in the spring. I'm certainly wishing i did ( wasn't in my budget )
Yea, definitely looking to spend money on seat time at a school day or two. After that I'll see where I'm at, and if jumping into an OTA competition is for me!

Thanks for the info! Appreciate all the guidance so far. Really looking to do this the "right" way, and try to avoid as many costly mistakes as possible.
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