CASC Ontario Region Message Forums  

Go Back   CASC Ontario Region Message Forums > CASC-OR Divisions > Autoslalom Specific Forum

View Poll Results: Should stock classes be restricted to OEM sizes only?
Yes - better/simpler to be inline with SCCA 14 56.00%
No - more fun/faster and more cars are stock class competitive 11 44.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:54 PM
Black Shadow's Avatar
Black Shadow Black Shadow is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 70
2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Thanks to Gary and all the Autoslalom executive team for getting out the new rule book quickly. Though there were no radical changes to the rules it's still a big task and was performed professionally.

I know I'm jumping the gun, but Gary mentioned some future discussions about potential changes to stock classes restricting wheel sizes to OEM. Are there any timelines in place for that disscusion?

The poll is for my own knowledge, as a stock class competitor (and probably not ever going to change) I'd just like to take the temperature on the issue.
__________________
gregc

Last edited by Black Shadow; 01-03-2009 at 07:04 PM. Reason: speel cheeken
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-03-2009, 07:13 PM
max attack max attack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,654
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Although I don't(and never will)run in a stock class I'd be opposed to going like the scca and limiting it to the stock wheel widths since that makes it a "must run this car to win" system.
Are current system means more cars have the potencial to win and isn't that what we want?.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-03-2009, 09:55 PM
mikewolf's Avatar
mikewolf mikewolf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Cambridge, ON
Posts: 719
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

I would say that if we are going to base our stock car classifications off SCCA rules and base our stock class PAX numbers off SCCA rules, we should make the wheels based off SCCA rules since they can make a big difference to some cars and not so big to others.

I think if the SCCA allowed different sized rims in stock class, some cars would be shuffled between classes and pax numbers would change.

If we are going to have different stock class rules, we might as well develop new stock car classifications and pax number (Which I know would be a lot of work)
__________________
#67 miata, solodwarf, fancy vw.
Autoslalom Rookie Ambassador
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-03-2009, 10:53 PM
max attack max attack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,654
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

I don't think any of our stock classes should be based on the scca(well I would like to see an XP style class based on min weights to equalize the cars) and especially pax #'s for the simple fact we run exclusively on ahphalt(less grip)and from the vids I've seen I think we run tighter/shorter/slower courses for the most part.
Those reasons alone are enough to impact on their system.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-04-2009, 02:00 AM
J.C. J.C. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: GTA
Posts: 932
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Quote:
Originally Posted by max attack View Post
I would like to see an XP style class based on min weights to equalize the cars
It would be a nice catch all class but, I do not think anyone in CASC-OR has a car that would not meet the weight to displacement rules of XP class.

I guess some one could have a super7 somehwere that would be under weight.
__________________
TrackMart
If you are thinking it's not possible...
...It's possible you aren't thinking!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-04-2009, 11:48 AM
Kreutz73 Kreutz73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Guelph
Posts: 577
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

It comes down to population. Many of our events are a fraction of the size of most US events. If we want this sport to grow then we need to keep the rules tailored to our smaller group of competitors. If we base our rules on the larger competitor base of the SCCA too soon we will scare many potential hard core and talented competitors away from our sport.

That's assuming we want to grow our sport in Ontario... otherwise we are better off going with full SCCA rules so the current hard core and talented drivers can easily venture south with their cars and not have to prep it differently.

It really depends what we want to do... grow our pool of talent or make it easier for our current pool to grow their talent. If we get too myopic on one particular issue or rule we risk getting off track from our overall goals for the sport in Ontario.

How does it matter? noobs wouldn't be discouraged? It comes down to the availability of resources. We have fewer competitors which means less experience to share, fewer used parts and certainly far less selection of said parts. Consider Mike Wolf as an example of this. He was able to start out with an under prepped car but able to buy some used cheap 13" race rubber and wheels, share the experience of many of our regional drivers, and took it from DFL to FTD in just a few dozen events worth of racing. If he had to continue to run on street tires or had to buy rare 14" wheels and race rubber he may not of stuck it out.
__________________
Paul
'92 supercharged Miata... turn before the turn!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-04-2009, 12:25 PM
Tashko's Avatar
Tashko Tashko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Schomberg
Posts: 1,069
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

According to last years SCCA Nationals the cars to have in Stock were:

AS - S2000, Solstice GXP, Corvette
BS - RX-8, MR-2
CS - Miata, Solstice
DS - Type-R, TT, Cobalt, R32
ES - Miata, MR-2
GS - Mini Cooper S
HS - Mini Cooper

According to last years CASC-OR the cars to have in Stock were:

AS - STi (three competitors)
BS - nobody showed up
CS - Miata (two competitors)
DS - Type-R, Jetta (three competitors)
ES - Miata (three competitors)
FS - Firebird (one competitor)
GS - Civic, Mini Cooper, Neon (seven competitors)
HS - Mini Cooper, Civic (eleven competitors)


So, to me, it looks like the 'car to have' is the same between SCCA tire rules and our tire rules.

Most people that would compete in Autoslalom have or will plus size their wheels for the street. They should have their stock rims available for R's and if not, stock rims are usually fairly available for decent prices. Being able to use wider rims benefits cars that have space to tuck bigger rubber inside the fender and creates imparity with cars that can't do this. Depends which way we want the class to be biased.

Speaking of bias, I like the wording of the poll...
__________________
Solo1 - #107 GT1-R
Solo2 - #105 DMOD

SPDA Social Director
www.spda-online.ca
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-04-2009, 03:03 PM
Kreutz73 Kreutz73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Guelph
Posts: 577
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

hey Tasko, did you ever upload those vids of the "special olymics" that were held out in PEI this past summer?
__________________
Paul
'92 supercharged Miata... turn before the turn!!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-04-2009, 03:11 PM
Tashko's Avatar
Tashko Tashko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Schomberg
Posts: 1,069
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

lol, nope. I think they're still on my phone.

I'll email you them to protect the innocent, some editing would be required prior to public *consumption*...
__________________
Solo1 - #107 GT1-R
Solo2 - #105 DMOD

SPDA Social Director
www.spda-online.ca
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-04-2009, 03:33 PM
Kreutz73 Kreutz73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Guelph
Posts: 577
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

lol
cool
__________________
Paul
'92 supercharged Miata... turn before the turn!!
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-04-2009, 03:40 PM
Kreutz73 Kreutz73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Guelph
Posts: 577
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashko View Post

So, to me, it looks like the 'car to have' is the same between SCCA tire rules and our tire rules.

Most people that would compete in Autoslalom have or will plus size their wheels for the street. They should have their stock rims available for R's and if not, stock rims are usually fairly available for decent prices.
really good point about the cars... not much changes even with slightly different rules.

but 'bout the tires, there are no doubt plenty of stock rims around... even here. my point was to try to find a decent set of used narrow or odd sized (14" for example) R's to fit on 'em. I don't know many people whose first set of R's were brand new or if they even knew what to get and where the best place is to order 'em. Noobs need to get their feet wet first, and they naturally want do it with as little $$ as possible. Cheap hand me downs are great for this... but if we add more variables to the mix and can't share tires/wheel combos across prep levels like we can now, then it's just one more example of how we are limiting resources ultimately discouraging rookies. When they are a little further down the learning curve of their car and their driving skills then they will start spending $$.

Aren't we now going to discount $20 on entry fees for rookies this year? great idea to help get noobs out. If this is our general goal/philosophy then it needs to be a factor in any decsisions we make for this sport. If we aren't interested in growing then i suggest we use this money as cash prizes for PAX and FTD winners at each event. Make our good drivers better rather than attract a lot of new ones.

If we want to grow our sport in a smaller market like ours we need to have rules that make it easy. SCCA rules, in my opinion, don't suit Ontario given the lack of interst. We only have about 50 serious competitors (and shrinking) but idealy need to be in the hundreds and have bigger lots/tracks to make their rules work.

Things like $20 off for rookies, using our "soft" tire/wheel rules, even other "old" ideas like street tire bonuses, STX/street tire classes (works for Quebec). This is the kind of stuff that will grow our competitor base. A larger group means more sponsors and maybe even cash contingency awards that many sponsors support in the states. We all win, but have a long road ahead of us if this is what we want to do.
__________________
Paul
'92 supercharged Miata... turn before the turn!!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-04-2009, 05:59 PM
J.C. J.C. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: GTA
Posts: 932
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

To grow the sport IMO, stock should be on street tires and not on R's. A lot of people such as the tuner crowd change tire/wheel sizes but very few if any will buy R compounds until they get more serious with competition. Leave stock to street compound and allow R's in SS and up. After all the single most important mod (after driver training) anyone can do to a vehicle is tires, even if it is only 1 pip. This will give people in stock class a better chance to compete without having to spend more on their car.
__________________
TrackMart
If you are thinking it's not possible...
...It's possible you aren't thinking!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-04-2009, 08:32 PM
Tashko's Avatar
Tashko Tashko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Schomberg
Posts: 1,069
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Availability of R comps would improve after the first year when the 'serious' guys have take off for the 'getting serious' guys to use.

While I agree with J.C. that having Street classes would likely help encourage more competitors I thought the point of the Provincial series was to provide a stepping stone of sorts for people after club events.

Stock cars on Street tires is the least appealing motorsport I can think of! Street classes are generally reserved for slightly modified cars where they have more wheel freedom and suspension/ECU mods. It would make more sense to have Street-SS and Street-SP to draw numbers.
__________________
Solo1 - #107 GT1-R
Solo2 - #105 DMOD

SPDA Social Director
www.spda-online.ca
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-04-2009, 09:06 PM
Black Shadow's Avatar
Black Shadow Black Shadow is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 70
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashko View Post
Speaking of bias, I like the wording of the poll...
Funny you should say that, because I for one am 100% undecided on what I think would be best.

Selfishly, part of me wants to have unrestricted wheel choices so that I can hone a faster setup for other clubs' events. The other part of me likes the idea of SCCA rules so I could be one set closer to engaging the Americans.
__________________
gregc
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-04-2009, 09:55 PM
brujack brujack is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 82
Re: 2010 and Stock Tire Sizing (poll included)

Let's ask the following question: is the regional series goal to cater to newbies or more experienced/dedicated/serious people?

I thought that the regional series was dedicated to the latter group and should then cater the rules to allow them to compete. One of the problems that I see is that the regional series is competing for people with the various club series. What incentive is there for the serious people to compete in the regional series? A stable rule set..no. A rule set that encourages the competitive people..no

The ruleset is not targeted to one side or the other and hence suffers from being mediocre. If you want to get serious just use the SCCA rule set. It is very established and encourages the hard core to come out. In the US there are plenty of clubs that run their own rules, like here and then there is the ultimate of rule sets--the SCCA.

Look at Canada, there is not consistent rule set to run.

If the regional series continues to compete with the clubs over the same people it will likely never be succesful and always rely on the running joint events with the clubs in order to not lose huge amounts of money.

Bruce
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cordeiro report; Volkswagen annouces qualifying paths for 2010 Jetta TDI Cup season! andrew1984 General Discussion 2 08-21-2009 08:39 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.