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  #76  
Old 02-08-2014, 12:04 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

Let me start out by stating that the CCC does its best to maintain a level playing field. They log many hours of research, calculation and discussion and they don't make rule decisions lightly. Whether we like it or not there will be "casualties" after every whack-a-mole exercise. And yes you could consider it an honor to have you car whacked IF you're the one who drove it to that fate. The converse, well not such an honor.

In order to shed some light on the mole whacking effects to the CRX here are my 2014 classification calculations:
- My 1991 CRX 2013 Car Classification was T1 @ 58.7 Final PI
- At the same prep-level according to 2014 rules my CRX is in T1 @ 55.5 Final PI (starting PI of 52.9 + 1.5 Pips for whack-a-mole + 1.1 Pips fudge factor)
- I cannot make my CRX faster without a swap or forced induction so I would be forced to put the passenger seat and door panels back in to drop 1 Pip for a T2 classification @ 54.5 Final PI
- I think I could be competitive in T2 for a top 10 Overall finish and maybe if I'm lucky contend for an Overall win sometime during the season.

So despite the whacking to my CRX I still benefit from the new classification approach. Sadly, the CRX and I will most likely part ways next season since I plan to run in a Scion FRS.

Keep up the good work guys.
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  #77  
Old 02-08-2014, 12:35 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

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Originally Posted by Carguy View Post
They log many hours of research, calculation and discussion

I think this is what Corey was asking for and requesting his car be data logged so it could be taken into account per the calculations. I have actually done real calculations and posted the trends in graphs which although did not change the power index, at least added weight giving a similar effect.

What is this years research and calculation based on that validates the changes? Acceleration, handling? If God came down and drove a stock mazda 2 to victory in sgt3, would it be whacked? I think that is the question that desperately needs a clear answer so people can stop complaining and accept the series and how it works as a lot of anger stems from the false perception that cars are categorized for their undisputable actual performance capability.
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  #78  
Old 02-08-2014, 04:59 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

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I think this is what Corey was asking for and requesting his car be data logged so it could be taken into account per the calculations. I have actually done real calculations and posted the trends in graphs which although did not change the power index, at least added weight giving a similar effect.

What is this years research and calculation based on that validates the changes? Acceleration, handling? If God came down and drove a stock mazda 2 to victory in sgt3, would it be whacked? I think that is the question that desperately needs a clear answer so people can stop complaining and accept the series and how it works as a lot of anger stems from the false perception that cars are categorized for their undisputable actual performance capability.
Ujjwal, I hear your frustration and I have also asked for that kind of transparency over the years. Perhaps the CCC could show a summary of their findings in support of their decision. Having said that I don't think CCC decisions are based on a data log of the mole car in relation to the data logs of any other cars. That would be too time consuming and nearly impossible since few competitors record data logs. It was good of Corey to suggest data logging for MIR, but what the CCC would really need is a full season's worth of data for Corey and all the top competitors.

Instead, I believe (let a CCC member correct me if I'm off base here) the calculations that occur every year involve some sort of regression analysis on the results for the top drivers in each class. If you draw a line through the results by class for each track then the resulting line(s) should have a slope that is almost the same as a line with pax factors by class. So for a given class, driver and car combination if there are results way above the line on a consistent basis then you have a mole because there is a driver seriously beating the class pax factor on a regular basis. After finding a mole you have to test the assumption that the performance potential of the mole car is in fact greater than the performance potential of the other cars in that class (here you have to make sure the prep-level of the compared cars is known i.e. optimized or not). It isn't perfect but it helps level the playing field.
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  #79  
Old 02-08-2014, 06:12 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

Good discussion guys, but shoukd move this off the FAQ thread.
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  #80  
Old 02-08-2014, 07:16 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

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Good discussion guys, but shoukd move this off the FAQ thread.
I dunno Barry, this is a pretty frequently asked question .

Pierre, I am with you except for the part of too time consuming to compare datalogs. I was forced to use the cc data logger in 2012 at Shanny to see if I was cheating or if the mustang was a mole. That information never was used to my knowledge presumably because it was already decided to bump it 10hi...
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  #81  
Old 02-08-2014, 08:13 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

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Originally Posted by Carguy View Post
Instead, I believe (let a CCC member correct me if I'm off base here) the calculations that occur every year involve some sort of regression analysis on the results for the top drivers in each class. If you draw a line through the results by class for each track then the resulting line(s) should have a slope that is almost the same as a line with pax factors by class.
I don't believe that sort of analysis has been used for as long as I have been around. That kind of analysis has been done in the past.

I agree with Ujjwal that it is a relevant FAQ, and that closing perception / reality gaps is going to be a positive outcome for participating members.

For example, two participating members have just have described techniques such as datalogger analysis and regression analysis that they believe are considered relevant for between season car adjustment. In reality, neither technique is used, and "overperformance" is currently defined solely by relative score for a weekend weighed against how much credit the car setup or driver gets.

Keep up the discussion - we need to have this thread deleted so someone that still lives in the region can re-make it
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Last edited by Lloyd_; 02-08-2014 at 08:22 PM.
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  #82  
Old 02-09-2014, 07:56 AM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

Data logging is great if you want to see what a car's acceleration is and is a very good alternative to dyno pulls and MEG calculation.

OTOH it is pretty useless at coming up with a car's overall PI. How many of you folks thing a Dodge hemi in a 4200 lb car is going to do well? How about compared to a similar wgt AMG Mercedes or S series Audi?

If the basic car classification was so simple, I'm quite sure there would be no mole whacking and the adjusting index (Handling Index) would seem more appropriate. (I would remind you that in many series including AutoX to CTCC to Grand Am, cars are arbitrarily assigned a class and yet some cars seem to shine more than others). Our aim is to take the shine off some of these winning cars and make other cars more competitive so that hopefully we don't have repeats of crazy dominating CAR performance (SN95 Mustang in T1comes to mind).

The point is, the deciding factor for mole whacking is results, not data logging. One driver in a car doing well, may well indicate a wonderful driver. Two drivers in the same car doing well makes the base car classification look much more potentially erroneous. In the case of Fox bodied Mustangs, in 2011, if Salmaan had run one more event, we would have had 3 similar Mustangs in the top 7 cars. Could be all 3 were exceedingly well prepared and driven but I'm not aware of any other cars coming close to that sort of distribution with the possible exception of the C5Z. (Do any of you remember the whining and complaining about raising the SN95 base PI from T1 ,just to find that an SN95 car won overall and GT4 the next year and despite being whacked again could STILL stay in GT4 but with fewer mods for 2013?)

Obviously looking at results only means we are always looking in the rear view mirror but we occasionally try to anticipate that if one car needs to be whacked, then other similar cars do as well. Hence the increase to ALL Mustangs and Camaros for 2013, not as much as the still very competitive SN95 Mustang but at least a move in the right direction.

The final point is that in reality, moving a car a few points rarely makes that much difference unless a car is at very top of a class in which case moving it up is precisely the aim of the CCC. None of the mole whacking done this year forces anyone to move classes.(They might have to add back in a bit of removed wgt etc but nothing drastic to get down to the same class as last year).

And as for those of you who are Obsessive Compulsive about this, 1.5 PIPs is equivalent to about 0.3 to 0.4 seconds per track and I am quite sure that is within your lap to lap delta, at least over the day.
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  #83  
Old 02-09-2014, 08:05 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

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Sadly, the CRX and I will most likely part ways next season since I plan to run in a Scion FRS.
WHAT!
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  #84  
Old 02-19-2015, 03:37 PM
Gary Gary is offline
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

I'm coming out this year to at least some events, and I'm starting to think through how I'm going to prepare the heap I'm going to run. One thing I'd like to get sorted is a car number. Who can assign me one - Region office or the Series Director? I'd like to keep the number I use in winter for Ice Racing (149), but I guess you take what you can get. Can someone let me know?
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  #85  
Old 02-19-2015, 05:58 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

Welcome! You will need to get the number from Gwoody27, registrar. Or ontariotimeattack [at] gmail [dot] com
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  #86  
Old 02-19-2015, 07:38 PM
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Re: ===Definitive Frequently Asked Question Thread===

Thanks, I'll send a PM. Stay tuned for more questions, as I am going to get started once ice race season is over in a couple of weeks.
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