Proposed “13/13" Class (working title)

[John Powell]

Well, I may be letting myself in for a lot of grief here, but here she goes ...

I’ve now researched the previous threads on a low pressure/risk class for those who wish to test the waters in wheel to wheel racing, and have come up with some assumptions on what people are looking for, but first a question for the Forum Administrator and/or Moderators.

As this topic has been discussed on or may be of interest to those in disciplines other than road racing, is there any way that this thread can be posted on forums other than that for Road Racing in such a way that all responses to this thread will be displayed simultaneously on the other forums? What I’m thinking of here is the full thread being shown simultaneously on the Solo I, Solo II, Road Racing and Ice Racing forums so that those interested in posting responses won’t have to go to another forum and thread to do so, making it more convenient for them to express their opinions.


OK, on to the meat of the matter.

It was suggested in one of the previous threads, I think by Bruce Mills, that someone with some time available should come up with a set of Regulations for a “13/13" type class, and as circumstances have dictated that I probably won’t be racing this year, I guess I’ll volunteer. For those interested in the recent history of this topic, the threads I’ve found are:
Any interest in Marque Class in CASC? http://66.59.135.81/forums/showthread.php?t=6094
Ready to try Racing? http://66.59.135.81/forums/showthread.php?t=5168
'Club Racing' of interest to Solo 1 drivers? http://66.59.135.81/forums/showthread.php?t=3666
street legal race class http://66.59.135.81/forums/showthread.php?t=3653

You may wish to do a quick review of these threads in order to get an idea of how I’ve formed the following assumptions that I’ll be using to prepare a preliminary draft of the proposed Regulations for this class, with the final objective being to submit a proposal to CASC-OR for the 2006 season. At the present time, please restrict any comments you may have to those that would help to refine these assumptions (a review of the previous threads here should help to limit any duplications). After we have dealt with this phase, I will write a set of draft Regulations and post them for your comments.

Assumptions - “13/13" Class (in no particular order)

1. From the number of entries to date the current “Marque” class is not long for this world, and even if the “G70+” class is included in their races, the number of entries will frequently not be sufficient to justify a race for this group.
2. There is interest in a low pressure/risk class for those who wish to try out wheel to wheel racing or to run cars that would normally compete in marque club events. For example, one of the previous threads on the Solo I forum contained a poll which showed that of 40 respondents 34, or 85%, expressed a positive interest in such a class.
3. From a review of the responses in the threads reviewed, most of the issues raised concerned the direct costs of wheel to wheel racing in such areas as driver’s safety gear, roll cages, licencing requirements (schools vs. prior experience), the number of events/one-day events, using road cars vs. “trailer queens”, increased wear on the car vs. that of Solo I, and costs generally. Many of these costs are dictated by the Race Regulations (and possibly a condition of the ASN master insurance policy) so there’s probably not much room to manoeuver here.
4. The next highest number of issues concern what could be described as on-track incidents and driver conduct such as; the risk of crashes and vehicle contact and the ensuing damage, speed differentials, and the conduct of other drivers. Some mentioned a form of controlled passing as a way to minimize risk, but there are also other options available, such as a stricter 13/13 rule, requiring a full stop before re-entering the track after a four wheel “off”, etc..
5. The remaining issues I have grouped as “other” as they were mentioned three or fewer times, and include date conflicts with other series (e.g. Solo I), having instructors available at the track for those running in this class, the effect of this class on entries in other racing classes and Solo I, increased personnel requirements (crew) for a road racing car, and road insurance issues for those running a road licenced vehicle. These issues probably won’t have much effect on the class Regulations.

So in summary what we’re looking for is a “no pressure” class with no “at fault” contact allowed, whether by intent, such as the use of the “chrome horn”, or gross driver error, such as a wildly over-optimistic passing manoeuver. There should also be very strict control over driver conduct, and possibly some restriction on passing, but no class divisions, points, or awards of any kind in order to remove any temptation to push that little bit harder than necessary. In theory, then, the risk of damage to vehicles should be low enough that, as long as the competing car meets the requirements of the Race Regulations, in almost all instances it should be able to be driven or flat-towed to and from the race meeting without any major complications, should the owner wish to use these methods. Ideally, this class would be suited to “novice” drivers to bring them up to speed in wheel to wheel racing (although it has been mentioned that this should not be called a “novice” class as some view the term as pejorative) and others, such as members of “marque” clubs, who would like to race in a “fun” class with lower risks and costs than current Regional Championship series. The “G70+” class could also be included if they agree to run under the Regulations for the new class.


As an aside, if anyone’s wondering why I’m showing such an interest in this class, it’s because I remember my first time on track as a novice at Waterford Hills in 1963. I was driving a Lotus 6 in the closed wheel practice, and I was fully occupied with watching for faster cars such as the Lotus 9s and 15s, when an AC-Ford Cobra blasted by me on the back straight and damn near blew me off the track. I had to quit that year after only two race meetings, but when I got back into racing in 1967 in a bog stock MGB, we had separate practice and races for Novice drivers. This enabled me to get up to speed (as much as my car would allow) before tackling the cut and thrust and speed differentials in the points races. It also meant that I could first drive and then flat-tow my car to events and gradually modify the car for racing, which helped reduce and spread out my start-up costs. As a result of my experience, I have a great deal of sympathy with most of the issues that now seem to be of concern to those who are interested in trying wheel to wheel racing, but are hesitant about getting started under present conditions.

So there you have it folks, but please remember that in this phase we're just interested in refining the basic assumptions.

[bumblebee]

Good proposal John. The Porsche Club has a 13/13 rule too, I will appreciate that when I take my 930 out. I won't run the Porsche in regionals as there are simply too many people who think that it is pro racing and need to take wild chances and some "bump" their way into the lead. I have run pro and enjoy that kind of racing with the appropriate venue and budget (time and money).

However amateur racing has severe limitations in terms of time and money so any damage not only reduces the car count due to repair time but also risks losing cars due to people not being interested in reparing body damage after every race and moving to another form of racing. Actually, after watching the CASCAR weekend, a CASCAR vehicle is perfect for regionals as body damage is easy to repair, you can rub with the best/worst of them, and you can run the few CASCAR road races and be reasonably competitive. If I were to return to regionals that is the type of car that I would run for those reasons. Something about the best defense is a good offense.

[Bubblecar]

Originally Posted by bumblebee

. . . I won't run the Porsche in regionals as there are simply too many people who think that it is pro racing and need to take wild chances and some "bump" their way into the lead. . . .

Personally - I think this is one of the most widely held - but most untrue beliefs that lead many to never trying racing.

For years members of the BMW club thought similarly - until they turned out for the ActionFront BMW series (13-13 rules) and within a few weekends - most ended up running in Touring or GT Sprints where they are today.

I have seen more than a few cars written off in 13-13 rules series. Normally caused because a driver loses control of his vehicle and goes off - hits a wall - or collects someone else. I have also seen 4 cars roll in the past 5 years at solo events.

No one - I repeat - NO ONE that I know of in regionals has the money, resources or time to get body damage fixed every weekend. By far most racers take a strong contact avoidance tact for weekend racing.

Not to say the some of the spec series (ActionFront Sentra - Honda Michellin, etc.) don't see more than their share of rubbing - but in the regular regionals the biggest cause of body damage has always been and continues to be driver error - as opposed to aggressive attitudes.

I know many Solo1 drivers who have crossed into Regionals - from Alec C. this year, to Victor Delcol, to Rob Smith, etc. etc. - and I don't think any of them have found the driving rough or intimidating.

Anyway - enough of my rant - that's just how I see it! (Regional racing is NOT the wild west - or a demolition derby and this board should make that clear.)

[bumblebee]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and their racing choice based upon that opinion. I have run in the SCCA and have found their amateur racing to be pretty good in terms of managing driver behaviour. We don't here and I have told Gunter that.

I would not bring any of my cars back in Ontario regionals because I believe that driver behaviour is not managed. Sure cars get damaged in solo, any time you take a car on a track and drive it to the limit you have an opportunity to go beyond the limit. No one complains about that. You simply get what you deserve.

It appears though that the cross over from Solo is not compensating for the reduction in existing customers. It is a classic customer retention problem. This customer is gone because I want to race, not to repair bodywork or worry about some nutbar being crazy. Regional racing in Ontario does not offer that format at this time.

You know all the license holders for the past 5 years, perhaps a survey of those license holders will give you real data instead of speculation.

In the meantime, 13/13 with the Porsche will satisfy my need.

[Steven Scala]

Bumblebee, your findings are a complete 180 from everything I've experienced.

Mind you, I've only mucked around in the GTD's this year, and maybe the tactics are softer at the back of the pack, but I found it appropriate to bring the aggro levels down a couple of notches from even the (open-wheel) school series level, where contact is naturally quite frowned upon.

On the other hand, back when I'd go down to Central Florida regionals as a crew member, the Atlantic guys were literally pushing our F2000 guys off the circuit.

Perhaps you have a wider selection of experiences from which to judge.

[John Powell]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee
. . . I won't run the Porsche in regionals as there are simply too many people who think that it is pro racing and need to take wild chances and some "bump" their way into the lead. . . .

Personally - I think this is one of the most widely held - but most untrue beliefs that lead many to never trying racing.

Perhaps, but from my review of the previous threads this perception is one of the major issues given as a barrier to trying wheel to wheel racing, and this is what needs to be addressed. Think of it in marketing terms - when trying to get consumers to buy a product is it facts that sell it or perceptions? If you think it's facts I suggest you review a few print ads or TV commercials. BTW, my perception is that, although the level of intentional or gross driver error contact in Regional racing today is indeed minimal, there is definitely more of it than there was in the late '60s.

[Bubblecar]

. . . more than there was in the late sixties. You are probably right.

That said - our marketing and perception changes begins right here.

The reality is that almost across the board, regional racers have budgets (mostly tight budgets) and are not looking to damage their vehicles.

As for the original point of this thread - I've been in the Solo community for some time - and I would suggest that cost is a huge deterent to many potential racers. And that cost includes the fear, rightly or not , that your car may be damaged. Quite a few solo participants, not only drive their car to the track - but drive it through out the week as their daily transportation.

That said there are a number of drivers who have cars, budgets and abilities that are ready for Racing - but most of them are currently content and will find their way over when they are ready. I'm not sure if yet another new series would bring any more - or - speed up those on their way?

I think our tactic has to be one of encouragement - no more of this "he's (or she's) ONLY a solo driver".

[John Powell]

I think our tactic has to be one of encouragement - no more of this "he's (or she's) ONLY a solo driver".

I ran a couple of Solo I events while I was waiting to get my race licence back, and I definitely agree with you here. As for changing perceptions, what better way than to give them something like the old "Novice" races so they can get a feel for what the factual situation really is? This is why I'm spending time on this proposal. Anyway, I don't think the discussion so far has changed the assumptions that I developed from reading the previous threads.

[Bruce Mills]

Mr. Powell

The Marque class as run this year is exactly as you describe your proposed rules. The only problem is that no one knows about it and that the 13/13 rule is a part of it. The 13/13 rule used is exactly copied from that used by VARAC and the defunct Action Front BMW series. This explains why it is possible to combine the G70 and Marque groups.

We do not need any new rules per say but possibly over the off season some minor tweaking would be appropriate. Actually the one change we need to bring in is an agreement with the various organizations who run races under 13/13 rules to exchange license information and honour each others 13/13 probation and or suspension penalties.

The main thing we need is someone to do a much better job selling what we have now to all those who could take advantage of it. This is the best idea to advance CASC Regional Racing anyone has had in years. It simply needs to be marketed properly. Unfortunately as anyone who has tried to read my ramblings on the subject it needs someone with much more talent at communicating than I to do the job justice. This may be where we really need your help.

[Bruce Mills]

Originally Posted by bumblebee

...... The Porsche Club has a 13/13 rule too, I will appreciate that when I take my 930 out. I won't run the Porsche in regionals as there are simply too many people who think that it is pro racing and need to take wild chances and some "bump" their way into the lead.....

Bumblebee, I think if you spent more time at regional races you would find that for the most part this is more the perception of regional racing than the reality, However given the investment you have made in a race ready Porsche 930 I can not question your reluctance to chance challenging this perception. That is why the Marque group was formed and why it runs to 13/13 rules copied from VARAC and BMW rules which I believe are almost if not exactly the same as those used by Porsche Club as well.

Now BEMC is running the Marque group as a one day event on September 18/05 so if your not going to Pocono or doing the autocross at the Toronto Star why not get another race weekend in this season? Spread the word, we would love to have a field of Porsche drivers show us how it’s done.

No CASC license, no problem if you have a full race license from Porsche Club of America you can surely get a CASC race license simply by applying to the race director and being observed in the practice session. Check the CASC FAQ and rule book for details or contact Steve at the Office.

[John Powell]

Ok everyone, first things first - the name's "John" to my friends, and I consider just about everyone in Regional racing my friend. As for the "Marque" class rules, Gunter would be pleased to know that I'm probably one of the few who downloaded them and actually read them. From those rules and the comments on the other threads I think that with a small change in focus, and a little "fleshing out", we can use the "13/13" (No Name?) class to bring some new converts into the fold from those that are now a little hesitant. I feel certain that most of those who use this class to get the feel of wheel to wheel racing will eventually get hooked, up-grade their licences and go on to regular Regional racing, and I must admit that this is my ultimate objective. Sorry to mention the "old" days yet again, but this is what used to happen when we had the Novice classes. Of those that I knew, or knew of, who ran as Novices, some didn't go any further, some ran as Novices for a season or a little more, but most eventually up-graded and went on to run in the regular Regional points races. My only regret with this initiative is that we can only accommodate closed wheel cars, but maybe later we can come up with something for those who are more interested in running open wheel cars. Anyway, enough from me for now or I'll be tempted to run on yet again about the concerns I have for the current state of our sport. And I can belabour a point when I think it's important - just ask Ron Woltman about the term I served as Secretary of MCO.

[bumblebee]

In response to participating in regional racing, I have participated over a 20+ year period, winning even a championship so I am well aware of the regional situation in Ontario.

My observation is that we have less accountability now then we used to in years gone past so, as I age, my interest in racing in an environment that does not manage its drivers and their behaviours in the spirit of what I perceive to be appropriate for regional racing has diminished to the point where I race elsewhere.

I can honestly say that I really enjoyed SCCA regionals and nationals, while I am not a bureaucratic kind of person I found that the driver behaviour management process was pretty good and as a result, there were good car counts and great racing.

There is maybe a lesson there for CASC.

[de Jager]

Well, I'm just going to add my 2 cents here about my experiences as a fairly new racer. I started out in 2002 (now entering my 4th year) and although I had a few hair raising moments in the beginning (like Klaus blowing past me at nearly 3 times my speed), I never once got tagged or bumped by anyone. My own driver errors were far more likely to cause me harm then any of my fellow racers.

I remember a couple years ago, I had whole weekends racing Karl Thomson (Rothmans 944 Cup Car) fender to fender and never once did we touch. He was an experienced driver and I was a fast learner and we both trusted each other. My first car to car incident didn't occur until halfway through my second season and the only repair I needed to do was RUB the rubber marks off my fender. My second incident was only because a driver (who was new to Mosport) made a rookie mistake and spun in c3 right in front of me. What do we say about both feet in? Well he didn't and as I went around him, he rolled into the side of me. Minor damage.

So I would testify that after three seasons and two minor bumps, regional racing is reasonably safe and damage free. Everyone cars about their cars too much to be stupid. The only guys that really made me nervious were the ones racing $2000 crap boxes who didn't care if they bent a fender. But I haven't seen "those types" since 2002. We are all out there racing for fun and a $2 trophy and none of us want to cause damage to our own cars to get it.

If you want to try it, then try it. Don't let fears of car damage turn you away.

[slucas]

I'm hoping "Bumblebee" is referring to 2001/2002 when the two closed wheel classes had prize money. There seemed to be a NASCAR mentality sneaking into some guys psyche that ruined it for alot of racers. It did chase some guys away (Bumblebee?) and I can't say I blame them, it will be hard to persuade them to come back. Funny thing;when the money stopped,so to did the problem.

As for 13/13, I'm sorry it hasn't been embraced by more guys. It should be the way for beginners to get into our sport.It should be "novice" with a new name.
Three signatures from the stewarts and you get your comp. lic..After that you are observed for "X" number of races with the big kids to have the novice triangle removed. If you just want to run 13/13,great, you can stay there (and maybe develop into an ontrack tutor).
The jump from a drivers school at Shannonville to racing full out at Mosport is perhaps just too big a leap for most people. Maybe we had it right years ago.

[Steven Scala]

It should be "novice" with a new name.

Hm.

"Club Sport"?